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I don't know for sure but it sounds like Mr. Therion might be trolling this thread with his flamebaiting remarks. I've had a lot of success with the Stormraven and have won a couple RTTs using armies that feature them. They might not make it through to the end of the game but if you have a game plan and they make their mark then they've paid for themselves plus some. They really make dreadnaughts worth taking since they can assault from the moving skimmer. Typically it can be hard to get a dreadnaught into melee. The Bloodstrike missiles are awesome for the alphastrike - S8 AP1 60" - typically they'll avoid cover when shooting since they are mounted on a flight stand above intervening terrain. And so what if it does get shot down? I see landraiders getting blasted apart all the time.

:-) Interesting, I've had my DC Dreads wipe entire squads assaulting out of a Raven pretty regularly... Maybe we play with a LOT of big terrain like buildings that I can hide it behind making it more effective than someone playing in "desert" terrain (none really)

@ Mr. Therion

I don't play every game against IG leafblower lists. Basically what you are saying is that if a unit does not perform well versus one type of counter then it's not viable in a competitive game. Like I said I dont play every game versus IG so for me that is not a sound argument on your part. What I can tell you is that I have played quite a few games versus IG and have won most of them with maybe one loss and one draw. Since you are tailoring your comments around a specific type of army (you sighted all your weapons, etc.) I can just as well design a DoA list that can beat your IG army. I'm not worried about stuff like your Psychic Choir as I can field an army that is 100 percent fearless. Lots of jump infantry units deepstriking with lots of meltas blows big holes into IG tanks. You've got Sanguinary Guard with their artificer armor and a Priest in tow for the FNP - they shrug off hellhounds and LRBTs. So you've got an Executioner all pimped out with plasma - Dante is going to deepstrike right beside it and blow it off the table with his melta pistol - he will be bringing some good friends along for the ride. I've got VV assaulting your tanks or bubble wrap platoons with meltabombs, thunderhammers and stormshields - they'll have a couple of melta pistols as well so they can destroy more of your tanks over the course of the game. I'll strategically bring in the Stormravens from reserve so they can alphastrike your tanks with the Bloodstrike missiles. So you shoot it down - big woop - I've got an uber melee jump troop inside that can still reach out and touch you. Sure if it was one skimmer versus an entire IG army we all know who is going to win but that's not the case... You are facing off versus an entire deepstriking army bristling with red hot melta death. IG doesn't scare me one bit. Not at all, in fact I always look forward to playing against IG. Its fun blowing up all those treads.

Therion wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:That is a waste in my opinion. You are basically using the landraider with a small troop inside to hold an objective and fire it's weapons. Okay that is not terrible but you aren't making the most out of it's true potential.

I think the Stormraven is in a class all by itself. You can compare it to landraiders and Vendettas but there are lots of differences. Only the Stormraven can carry a dreadnought. It's very good when you can hold it in reserve, move onto the table 6" to alphastrike then next turn deliver an uber assault squad and dreadnaught into melee. You should use the rest of your army to eliminate threats that can shoot it down. It doesn't have smoke launchers but if you are really worried about it then just move it 24" each turn - you can still fire a weapon since it's got PotMS. It's a great transport/mobile weapon platform for the points. And yes it has ceramite plating so meltas only roll 1d6 for armor penetration - 50 percent of the time they will fail to glance/penetrate and that is not taking into account the roll to hit. They are cheaper than a landraider... This might be something that could make Grey Knights a competitive army for once.

Since all of you are dabbling about the same thing, just answer one question: My IG army has 51 heavy weapons and 14 special weapons in 2000 points (17 tanks overall), and the heavy weapons haven't actually been maxed out or anything since theres a PBS in there etc. What kind of odds do you give for your Stormraven to survive a single turn of shooting, considering it doesn't have a cover save and has AV12? When you decide not to alpha strike and move fast instead, you'll get the save, but you'll be wrecked on immobilised results as well. Truth be told it's the same as the IG player assuming he can survive another IG army shooting without losing a single Chimera despite everything being out in the open. It simply won't happen. Any and all of your Stormravens will go down the first shooting phase the enemy gets at them.

What you can then get out of them is reserve them and move 24" to the table and use PotMS to fire the TL MM at something. You'll then be destroyed with 100% certainty but atleast you can hide your Dread and the Marines around the wreckage and if the enemy can't surround and shoot you to death or assault the units inside, you might get to assault something. Sad part is that it's a terrible way to spend 200 or 215 points depending on if you like to buy extra armour for your flying points sink. Additionally, if the target army doesn't have any juicy targets and only consists of moving vehicles, you're in deep and will most likely be wiped out in short order.

What you should be doing on the other hand, is either playing a proper JP DoA list because it wrecks shooty armies from hell much more reliably than any Stormraven junk does, or a BA mech army based on Immolators, Baals and Preds/Devs, lead by your very own Daemon Prince, mr. Mephiston. But of course you can also get desperate and try to find uses for ineffective units that try to be too many things at the same time.

Just a tip, for free this time.

I mean you put them up in a situation where even a razorback spam army would have some troubles...

I don't think you can disregard them so quickly by throwing them in situations made to kill them. I would think more of how they would do against Ork armies, or rhino spam due to their fast movement and ability to knock out a bunch of rhinos a turn, then assault the unit with its dropping troops.

I see how the stormraven has a HUGE weakness, I can see why you could argue, and most likely be right, that the stormraven is not the "perfect" choice for torties but I don't think you can say that it is a useless unit, it has its abilities, and if they are utalized well they can wreck havoc, and there are some armies such as the 10million heavy/special weapon anti-tank expert guardsmen armies, and they will wreck havoc on this army, but it doesn't mean it can't face other armies very well and so giving it some viability.

I think it's hard to say something along the lines of "x unit is terrible because it has trouble against my leafblower guard list" (or "your scissors is not good as it has trouble against my rock") and expect to be taken seriously.

Reason being (in case it isn't already obvious) is that a Leafblower list is a particularly specialised min maxed list that usually requires an equally specialised list (or a terrible opponent) to counter act it.

Yeah, but leafblower sucks against my all Shadowsword army in apocalypse on a table with no terrain.

@Monster Rain
LMAO.

I was thinking that maybe I'll click ignore on Therion and continue thinking about the storm raven... Going first in a dawn of war game would make having three storm ravens filled with killing a serious threat!!

There is a big problem that it is an expensive transport that is carrying an expensive load and will be a huge target. Infantry carrying heavy weapons and tanks with long range guns will give it some trouble. But is is still too cool for school so how can we protect it?

The Storm Raven already has great, great, great Anti-Tank capability, but what about pairing it with some podding suicide squads of meltas. Five sternguard with combimeltas would be a great addition to anti-tank, and could also play an anti-infantry role with the special ammo. But the elite slots fill up too fast when we are bringing in Furiosos.

Honor guards in pods with meltaguns?--under 200 points--will kill a vehicle first turn--must be dealt with or will kill more, and don't fill up force org chart, but must fight temptation to make them super expensive and killy...
Devs with 4 missile launchers?--very versatile, only 130 points
Rifleman Dread?---very versatile, only 120 points, but only Str 7 not good against AV13...
5 man assault squad with discounted Razorback? a TL las cannon that can move 12" and fire, scoring, only 155 points, tried and true cheap unit

All we need is to keep the big guns from firing for a turn, which any glancing hit can do. Any other ideas?

A libby with shield might be a small benefit too?

Here's kind of what I'm talking about...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/328119.page#2121669

@ Theorion

51 heavy weapons certaintly would give Stormravens trouble, but they can work around that. Deep Striking BA are actually the Rock to the IG leafblower Scissors. 51 heavy weapons will give many armies trouble, not just BA with Stormravens.

leafblower is actually a one trick pony. it is quite vulnerable to, Not getting the first turn, Outflankers, and Deepstriking armies(although this is fixable by bubblewrapping) Classic Leafblower will be destroyed by a Space Marine player that outflanks a couple of Scout squads with PFs and reserves everything.

Stormravens, conversely, arn't one trick ponys. they can transport 12 marines AND a dreadnought right into the enemy lines(who can assault from the Raven), it can deepstrike, it has PotMS, and some pretty potent weaponry for it to use with PotMS. For a skimmer it has pretty good armor, 2nd only to Hammerheads and Falcons(of which only 1 is a transport)

Thinking on Therion's valid concerns, but also considering the utility of the Raven, I think it can have its day in a competitive list. However, you have to be cautious with its use.

Taking an army with three loaded Ravens in 2000 points will be fun, but is noncompetitive. You will not live to reach your opponent.

Taking two is more competitive, but a heavily shooty army will focus on the Ravens and take out the point of your spear, causing you to have to play for ties instead of going for the jugular with your Alpha strikes.

However, I think one loaded Raven makes a great addition to any list. It has a small enough point footprint that you can throw in plenty of other supporting units to still win if it gets shot down, you make your opponent question whether he really wants to dedicate himself to killing the Raven, and if it does live, then you can use it as a rapier, finding the opponent's weak point and unloading a melee units onto it and busting nearby vehicles whiel the rest of your army advances unmolested.

The unit I'm currently thinking being effective within a Raven is:
Jump Librarian - Shield of Sanguinius (Cover Save) and Sanguine Sword (Tank Busting on the charge)
Honor Guard - Jump Packs, 4 Flamers, 3 LCs, Power Fist (Incredibly nasty infantry killing unit to support Raven's antitank)
Furioso - Heavy Flamer

The Raven and its contents are very killy, but with no troops and only taking up a little more than a quarter of your army, losing it can still leave you in an average position and still potentially win games. What you gain is a unit with the potential, if the assault units get out, to kill 3 vehicles and slaughter any infantry squad.

I'm not Sure Jump infantry is the way to go with the raven though. Bloody Skies is of very limit use IMO. Also at 6 models that makes for a pretty fragile squad. I think i would rather have more bodies in it. The only time the packs are really advantage in the raven is when you want to get out and move before moving the raven or if the raven can't move.
I also think that if you are fielding a death company squad that a DC dread might be the way to go. Even if you can't get the squad inside into combat on a turn the fleet with the DC dread gets you extra range for that charge. That said I do like the Librarian dread I've been running in it.

Cheers,
~Volkan

What about a defensive list with the Storm Raven in reserve. You can bring it in from your table edge and ruin and enemies within range.

I think you need a chapter banner in there 6 extra re-rollable attacks from a small squad like that is awesome!

I played a stormraven loaded with a dread with blood talons and a 5 man squad with standard and reclusiarch against 7 dark angel termies with HQ dude that counts them as troops. they had assault canon, missile launcher etc fully loaded and i wiped them out in one turn with the stormravens side sponsons and then the assaulting dread and squad. the squad and dread then covered the raven from LOS so it got cover saves but the opponent didnt shoot at it he was more annoyed with the blood talons from the dread and the squad that just killed 500+ points of termies and HQ. the squad then got back in the raven and carried on the mayhem.

its horses for courses and if people want to spend there time only on leafblower and razorback spam (which i play occasionly) then let them. but if you wanna be experimental and refine tactics in more difficult circumstances and also have some fun then give ravens or cavalry a go. finding a way to make a hard list work is more rewarding than using an easy list all the time

fox40 wrote:i think the storm raven is going to be great. being competetive with a razorback spam list is only fun for a while, getting good with a cool air cav list is fun in a different way just like my 15 thunderwolf cav list makes for yet another fun learning curve.
for me 3 ravens packed with dreads and assault troops is awesome. you can fire off 12 missiles and 3 twin las and 3 typhoon missile systems turn one at 6 different targets. thats going to do some damage especially to razorback spam. then you move in fast and assault 3 dreads and 36 men direct into the enemy lines while still firing 3 twin las at another 3 targets or 3 hurricane bolter sponsons into the infantry.
thats a whole lot of fire power. it is all the eggs in 3 baskets but its seriously fun.
lets be honest fun lists remain fun for longer than dull competetive lists.

Sorry nothing to do with the thread or your post but if that Avatar is yours congratulations on a beautiful looking Warhound Titan sir!

Ed_Bodger wrote:

fox40 wrote:i think the storm raven is going to be great. being competetive with a razorback spam list is only fun for a while, getting good with a cool air cav list is fun in a different way just like my 15 thunderwolf cav list makes for yet another fun learning curve.
for me 3 ravens packed with dreads and assault troops is awesome. you can fire off 12 missiles and 3 twin las and 3 typhoon missile systems turn one at 6 different targets. thats going to do some damage especially to razorback spam. then you move in fast and assault 3 dreads and 36 men direct into the enemy lines while still firing 3 twin las at another 3 targets or 3 hurricane bolter sponsons into the infantry.
thats a whole lot of fire power. it is all the eggs in 3 baskets but its seriously fun.
lets be honest fun lists remain fun for longer than dull competetive lists.

Sorry nothing to do with the thread or your post but if that Avatar is yours congratulations on a beautiful looking Warhound Titan sir!

lo. thanks it is. there are some pics in my gallery of it, still needs finishing but im actually rather nervous of painting the interior, its so detailed it scary

I didn't bother to paint the interior of mine outside of the cockpit but then I am more of a player than a painter. I'll check out those pictures

I thank everyone for replying to the IG example with 'the BA wouldn't use Stormravens then, I'd use JP DoA because it wrecks mech olololol' because in case you forgot that was what I said in the very same post. Don't use them. IG is far from a one trick pony when played well though because it can outshoot everything and it doesn't have any high priority targets that disable the rest of the army when destroyed. It's one of the most reliable tournament winner candidates every time around, but it can still be beaten. The point isn't to discuss IG at all but the fact that atleast to me they're a common enough tournament opponent and I would never consider a list that cannot reliably win against leafblowers or SW/BA razorspam lists that don't shoot as hard as the IG but have hardcore counter assault units in addition to the firepower (TWC, TWC lords, Mephiston, etc).

Taking an army with three loaded Ravens in 2000 points will be fun, but is noncompetitive. You will not live to reach your opponent. However, I think one loaded Raven makes a great addition to any list.

You remember I suggested that lone Raven to you in your army list thread. I'm not sure it's a great addition, but it doesn't ruin the list in any way yet and it does something anyway. That's not what most of the people in this thread are discussing however. They are talking about stacking up on Stormravens and filling them with DC and DC Dreadnoughts. Essentially, they're putting 1000 points in two baskets that get blown away in any competitive setting. They're totally on and off and unreliable to the max. Seriously the first rule of death star units in any game should be that they're ridiculously hard to kill. Chibi-hawks with their cardboard walls and balsa wings aren't.

You obviously don't get it and you are wrong. Your type of IG relies solely upon going first to win. Stormravens still work against IG and are a good choice. But hey you believe what you want to believe.

Therion is correct that IG is a common tortie army, but so is mob orks, and a great many other things which i think the stormraven can excell at. I don't see how the stormraven is a lose by turn one against a IG Leafblower list or a SW/BA/SM razorback spam army. I am sure there are ways to make the list be able to work in such a way to combat such an army.

I also agree with Therion that you shouldn't be putting DC and DC dreds in stormravens. If you are going to have an expensive unit in the army, or even have an army based around 2 or 3 expensive units (the stormravens are such a unit!) you can't have the rest of the army be full of more units like that!! Instead I would focus on assault marines without JP, or honor guards with limited upgrades. Stormravens can be useful, but not if they don't have support elements just like almost any unit in the game! I think there can be a way to have 2-3 stormravens in an army and have it be a good list, but i don't think it would work when the rest of your points are going towards expensive units liike DC. the list needs more unist, other targets besides just the stormravens, as well as a backup just in case all three ravens go down (there goes 600 or so points) if the rest of your army, the 1400 (about) points are all thrown into huge point-sucking units such as DC you end up with little you can work with. but if you have a few dreds, some assault squads and some other support elements if the three ravens go down at least you have SOMETHING useful to work with.


i was thinking at one point if it would be worthwile to get two or three ravens, assault squads without Jp, then get reduced point tanks to roam around, holding noone while the assault squads roam around in the stormravens. Not sure if that would help at all, i just thought it was a funny idea, could help if you oppenent had no idea which had units inside of them

my current air cav list is:

stormraven 1:
5 man assault no packs, melta, infernus
furioso dread

stormraven 2:
5man assault with packs, melta, infernus
dante
furioso

stormraven 3:
5 man death company
death dread with talons

rhino:
5 man assault no packs
corbolo

razorback 1 twin las
5 man assault no packs

razorback 2 twin las
no squad


thats 3 fast tanks, 3 ravens, 3 dreads and 5 squads for 2000 points

i think its going tobe a fun list. not as competetive as some but fun

Embarked psykers can use powers correct? (I don't have any in any of my armies.) Libby dread with shield could keep the storm raven alive with some luck.

I like to run one Stormraven with a very hard hitting assault unit onboard plus a Furioso with Blood Talons. It's actually easy to support the Stormraven with the rest of the army. Vanguard veterans with Heroic Intervention is an excellent unit to snipe one threat to the Stormraven such as Long Fangs. You've got the assault squads with three meltas (2x meltagun + infernus pistol) dropping in from reserve popping other threats. The Stormraven itself can alphastrike when it comes in from reserve firing four Bloodstrike missiles and the twin linked lascannon - sometimes you can also split fire with the twin linked multi-melta and wreck two units. Typically with a DoA style list the jump infantry will arrive first on turn 2 and shutdown key enemy units. The Stormraven then comes in on turn 3 or 4 with the opponent's army whittled down enough that there is not enough long ranged shooting to reliably take out the Stormraven. It's all about target selection and systematically shutting down your opponent over the course of the game. Like I said I am always happy to see an IG army across the table at a tournament, barring absolutely abysmal dice I feel that I can win. I have playtested my list many games versus IG so my army is tweaked and has all the tools it's needs to get the job done.

Acardia wrote:Embarked psykers can use powers correct? (I don't have any in any of my armies.) Libby dread with shield could keep the storm raven alive with some luck.

ooooo, nice catch.

still won't help much on first turn, but would allow the stormraven to move slower(shoot more guns) with a save.

Grey Templar wrote:

Acardia wrote:Embarked psykers can use powers correct? (I don't have any in any of my armies.) Libby dread with shield could keep the storm raven alive with some luck.

ooooo, nice catch.

still won't help much on first turn, but would allow the stormraven to move slower(shoot more guns) with a save.

Don't you use the Shield in the enemy's shooting phase?

ask a BA player.

i don't do cheeze

Yes Shield of Sanguinius is used in the enemy shooting phase.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Not entirely sure.

Tested a list out on Vassal using a Storm Raven today against my Roommate using Vulkan Marines. I used the list at the bottom of this topic:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327638.page#2118432

To keep it short and simple... it was a slaughter. The fast moving and long ranged elements obliterated and stunned his armor, and his rush towards my objective with a Bike squad that would have overwhelmed the defenders in their razorbazk was utterly slaughtered by the Storm Raven coming out of reserve and transported Furioso. Then the Furioso got back in, and the unit proceeded to go murder a Land Speeder Squadron. Then they got back in, and flew over to destroy his assault terminators.

The rest of the list played to the objective, the single quick moving Storm Raven provided help wherever the weak point in my army seemed about to break. DEFINITELY made the army what it was.

Sadly not going to write a battle report but... I was very impressed by its effects during this game.

Heavy Support
Storm Raven
TL Lascannon
TL Multi-melta
Extra Armor

Dreadnought
TL Autocannons x2

Dreadnought
TL Autocannons x2

I think this is a great heavy support selection to start with. I was toying with it in a lot of my lists. I love rifleman dreads, they can stun so many vehicles so they can't shoot, and they can take down serious MCs I almost hate taking the third one out of my list for a Raven



Librarian - Jump Pack - Shield of Sanguinius - Sanguine Sword
Honor Guard - Jump Packs, Chapter Banner, 4 Meltaguns, 3 LCs, Power Fist
Furioso Dreadnought - Heavy Flamer Upgrade

Did you use the shield of Sanguinius at all? Or the Meltas on the Honor Guard? I'm so torn between some LC Termies with a Priest/Death Company/Or the Honor Guard.

Obviously the Chapter Banner is a killer option, but I kind of like the DC option because LeMartes is your Chaplain there and he can't be picked out in CC, plus he is a complete lunatic.
Terminators are good old reliable--can't go wrong with how good and cheap they are...

Sanguinary Priest - Jump Pack
10 Assault Marines - 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist
5 Assault marines - Meltagun, Razorback w/Las/TL Plas
5 Assault marines - Meltagun, Razorback w/Las/TL Plas

This is a great way to run troops, which I was also planning in some Raven Lists, Seriously, Pvt. Jet, I think we're on the same page. Pvt. Jet... ... I get it.

Ah someone got the pun? I've used this moniker for a year now and people I've been using it around JUST got it.

Definitely was a fan of the Rifleman Dreads. My Vanilla lists typically pod Dreads out of the sky with the hopes they'll DCCW something a turn later, but I have to say I was very impressed by their firepower (7 Wounds on a Terminator squad? Yes please!) Also, love your Dreadnoughts there. You use the Forgeworld arms or convert your own?

The Honor Guard popped out of the Raven twice in my game. One they took out a squadron of Speeders with their meltaguns (wrecking one and stunning another) before charging with the Sanguine Sword Librarian and utterly devastating the remains, before getting back in next turn. Then they got out later and charged a squad of Assault Terminators who'd managed to catch one of my rifleman Dreads, and proceeded to kill three with their LCs.

Very effective unit, especially with FNP built in to keep them alive. I was tempted to try Terminators, but then you need to buy a Priest to give them FNP, and I was tempted to try DC but you either need to go overboard and buy Jump Packs (SOOO expensive) or leave them slow and vulnerable to rage if the Raven gets shot down. Also, if I find I'm not using the Shield of Sanguinius, I could throw Unleash Rage on the Librarian instead to make them reroll hits as well. However I'm already killing anything on the charge so that may not be entirely necessary...

Yep, the Honor Guard is definitely the most flexible and middle of the road, comes with a priest and can fit a librarian or Reclusiarch.

Termies only get to choose one buddy to come along, not Priest and Reclusiarch, and DC include everything but are so expensive...

I added IG heavy weapon team autocannons to Black Reach Dreads. I had to file little grooves to get them to sit together, but I like the offset AA gun look.

I chuckled at your name as soon as I saw it... classic...