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penek wrote:Its used after move\or while moving:
During VRB movement phase, it may place a small blast marker centered upon any one model it has passed over that turn.....

If it is during, there should no restriction--as the vehicle has not moved flat out, it is moving flat out.

Penek - you lie was:

You lie, nowhere in BRB exist a line that say - you can shoot in Movement phase. Only in your imagination.

I never disputed the other one. Reading is TECH, try it.

Now retract your lie, NOW.

nope there's restriction.. as normally you declare before move, for how much you will move something, or will you do flat-out.
ps. or you move inch, do something move inch again... and then oh! i will go flat-out ??

Doesnt alter the tense of move versus moved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Penek - you lie was:

You lie, nowhere in BRB exist a line that say - you can shoot in Movement phase. Only in your imagination.

I never disputed the other one. Reading is TECH, try it.

Now retract your lie, NOW.

p70 of brb?

Fast vehicles moving flat-out may fire no weapons.

? its line that restrict you firing weapons, and its have nothing with shooting phase only?

Sigh. You dont even understnd your own posts, apparently.

Here, try it again: you stated that *I* stated that there was a line in the BRB that let you shoot in the movement phase.

I . SAID. NO. SUCH. THING

Therefore you lied. Understand now? At all?

kirsanth wrote:If it is during, there should no restriction--as the vehicle has not moved flat out, it is potentially moving flat out.

Fixed my own post.
The measurement to determine the speed is done after the move, no?

you fist line in that post:

I can fire weapons

I am restricted from firing weapons, in the shooting phase, when moving flat out.

I am not firing weapons in the shootiung phase, therefore I retain permission to fire weapons.

Done. Now show a restrictin that applies when moving flat out to weapons fired in the movement phase, or concede.

it have two possibilities:
1) its somewhere in BRB (which pretty clear on what you can do in Movement phase)
2) its your imagination, and have nothing to do with this game.

I given you quote from BRB, and you still insist that you CAN use it.

Nos, I see you have gotten more abrasive since last I was here... oh well.

In any case, the rules for Fast Vehicles can be found on p.70.
Under the heading Fast Vehicles, is a section called Fast Vehicles Firing.

Under that section is a paragraph of one sentence, that reads in its entirety:

"Fast vehicles moving flat out may fire no weapons."

Please note, despite claims to the contrary in this thread, no where is there a qualifier in that statement; nor is there any condition that it only applies in the Shooting Phase. Those assertions were manufactured by you and others, eventhough it does not exist.

As mentioned, the section head deals with Fast Vehicles Firing, it does *not* deal with Fast Vehicles in the Shooting Phase.

kirsanth wrote:

kirsanth wrote:If it is during, there should no restriction--as the vehicle has not moved flat out, it is potentially moving flat out.

Fixed my own post.
The measurement to determine the speed is done after the move, no?

its more a question - do you declare flat-out before move, or just do it on accident - just by moving model more then 12"
ps. normally you declare to opponent what you wanna do. (a "must" part of this i think i TO rule)

Sure, but unless you end more than 12" away--and this requires one to measure it to check--it is not a flat out move.

imho its used after you finished move ) because it say - any one model it has passed this turn, and not after you pass over any one model)
anyway DE codex really messy one)= and raised too many questions without FAQ
ps. and by BRB if you declare flat-out - then your move will 100% end between 12" and up to 24" (on fast skimmers)

coredump wrote:Nos, I see you have gotten more abrasive since last I was here... oh well.

He's not too bad. And, since Gwar!'s mysterious disappearance, he's been handling the "RAW works like this" for all of YMDC.

He just really doesn't like it when someone makes their argument into a personal attack.

Edit: And this post let me get off the stupid Jetbike and into a War Walker! WOOT!

Codex trumps BRB in this case. The rules for the VM specifically state using it in the movement phase. It does not specify distance to move. Since Flat-out is only done in the movement phase and the VM is used as you are passing over a enemy unit in the movement phase, you can Flat-out and use it.

The last sentence for the VM, "Note this counts as using a weapon." is up to interpretation as it is obviously not saying shooting. Personally, I think they forgot the VB has the Aerial Assault rule. But that's merely conjecture on my part.

Rymafyr wrote:Codex trumps BRB in this case. The rules for the VM specifically state using it in the movement phase. It does not specify distance to move. Since Flat-out is only done in the movement phase and the VM is used as you are passing over a enemy unit in the movement phase, you can Flat-out and use it.

That logic has the exact same issue as when people (erroneously) claim that monoliths can fire after deepstriking.

There is a specific restriction and no allowance to avoid it that I can see.

It is a specific weapon system and it tells you how to use it. While I'm not a 'RaW' enthusiast, it reads straight forward and I see no reason why it would not be played as read. Chain snares does the same thing without restriction to movement.

Both are weapons used in the movement phase. One weapon just happens to be resolved using a blast template and as such everyone sees it as a shooting attack.

Saying something can be used in a given phase does not change any rules other than the rules stating which phase things are done in.

DE = The mines can be used when the model moves.
BRB = When moving flat out no weapons can be used.

DE+BRB=The mines can be used when the models moves, unless it moves flat out.

The fact that it is fired as a weapon lets you know that it uses the rules for firing weapons.
Those include the restrictions.

Chain Snares don't say - counts as using weapon.

penek wrote:Chain Snares don't say - counts as using weapon.

They seem to work more like. . .a deffrolla?

The mines, however, are a used as a weapon and thus follow all weapon restriction they are not specifically allowed to ignore.

kirsanth wrote:

penek wrote:Chain Snares don't say - counts as using weapon.

They seem to work more like. . .a deffrolla?

The mines, however, are a used as a weapon and thus follow all weapon restriction they are not specifically allowed to ignore.

that was answer to Rymafyr ))

kirsanth wrote:Saying something can be used in a given phase does not change any rules other than the rules stating which phase things are done in.

DE = The mines can be used when the model moves.
BRB = When moving flat out no weapons can be used.

DE+BRB=The mines can be used when the models moves, unless it moves flat out.

The fact that it is fired as a weapon lets you know that it uses the rules for firing weapons.
Those include the restrictions.

penek wrote:Chain Snares don't say - counts as using weapon.

Pointed out your mis-quote Kirsanth, here's the correction: BRB = Fast vehicles moving flat out may fire no weapons. Firing is done in the shooting phase, not the movement phase. The VM is not a shooting attack as is evidenced by being used in the movement phase and by the change in the scatter rules for the blast template. To put it succinctly, the VM is dropped during movement...no shooting involved, thus no prohibition on using it while moving Flat-out.

Modquisition on. This thread has been reported.

1. Get back to Dakka Rule #1 compliance. NOW.
2. Cease and desist the "you lie" "no you lie" statements now or risk suspension of your account.

Posts that are not in compliance and posted after this public warning will be assumed to mean the poster is intentionally trying to violate Rule #1 and wants to be suspended at least 5 days.

Rymafyr wrote:Firing is done in the shooting phase, not the movement phase.

So it is used as a weapon, and not a shooting attack, but it is a blast weapon? Did you look those up first?

Rymafyr wrote:The VM is not a shooting attack as is evidenced by being used in the movement phase and by the change in the scatter rules for the blast template. To put it succinctly, the VM is dropped during movement...no shooting involved, thus no prohibition on using it while moving Flat-out.

See Terror from the Deep.

(Shooting) attacks that are specifically allowed to occur in a different phase are still (shooting) attacks.

Are you trying to assert that when it is used as a weapon, they meant CCW?
I am struggling to find another type of weapon it could be.
Help in that regard would be appreciated.

You are the one that is saying it is a shooting attack, the rules do not classify it as such.

Rymafyr wrote:You are the one that is saying it is a shooting attack, the rules do not classify it as such.

Indeed. So what type of blast weapon with an AP value are you asserting it is?

A blast weapon by it's own definition within the DE codex.

Rymafyr wrote:A blast weapon by it's own definition within the DE codex.

penek wrote:they count as using weapon no?
and you can also check p70 of BRB, paragraph called:
Fast Vehicles Firing.
Last line.

Again, this weapon is not fired as pointed out by your mis-quote of that passage and it seems by Penek's mis-quote of the same passage. This is why I say, the last line for the VM's description which states: "Note this counts as using a weapon." is up to interpretation. This is a completely different statement from pg. 70 of the BRB that says, "Fast vehicles moving flat out may fire no weapons.".

Does it require an FAQ? Absolutely! Does it make sense to play it as it reads? Actually yes it does! Does it break any rules or is game breaking? Not in the slightest.


Edited to clarify my own thoughts and to end my point on the issue as gentlemanly as possible.

You can read p28 of BRB for reference of ASSAULT weapons.
its pretty much clear that you Firing it.. not swinging with it, or stabbing or anything else. Oh and btw all "Weapons" in BRB are ranged, and Fire...

And what is the range of the VM? If you have the DE codex you know.

Well, to clarify...the range of the VM is listed in the DE Summary as "*". The asterix points to the relevent rule in the codex. Under the VRB entry range for the VM is listed as "see below". Reading below, "During the VRB's Movement phase, it may place a small blast marker centered upon any one model it has passed over that turn and roll a scatter dice."

So we can sit here all day and go back and forth. It's already been determined to need a FAQ to determine if the VM is a shooting attack in the movement phase. While I think you will be vindicated if a FAQ ever is given on this, It does not currently play that way because of the movement phase.