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Question is simple, do you get cover saves from the void mine?

Eidolon wrote:Question is simple, do you get cover saves from the void mine?

This is the exact same issue as the Ork Big Bomm and Swooping Hawk Grenade Packs.

The question isn't whether or not cover saves can be taken against Void Mines, but rather how do you determine where cover is determined from (and also how do you determine which armor facing the blast hits)?

The reason I say that is because you have no choice but to use the rules for shooting to resolve this attack, and part of those rules include cover saves. The problem is. when you attempt to determine whether or not the targets are in cover or not, where the heck do you draw line of sight from? At the position the model is after it moves? The wording of the weapon makes it sound like you place the blast after the vehicle moves so by the RAW you would probably draw LOS from wherever the Voidraven has moved to.

But I think most people will simply play it like a barrage weapon and determine cover by where the center of the blast ends up instead determines cover and armor facing.

Cover from where the void raven is sounds silly. Drops bomb, flies behind building, suddenly cover. Barrage would make the most sense.

MORE QUESTIONS!

Someone told me only the hole is ap2, like a monolith, does this hold any weight?

Does it reduce scatter by the firer's bs? If you are shooting it like a weapon, and you can take cover saves, id imagine it subtracts bs.

can you flat out and use it? Not shot in the shooting phase.

Does this mean, that if it doesnt hit a vehicle, im hitting them with a S4 shot?

agreed, maybe GW will be graceful enough to faq that

Eidolon wrote:Cover from where the void raven is sounds silly. Drops bomb, flies behind building, suddenly cover. Barrage would make the most sense.

MORE QUESTIONS!

Someone told me only the hole is ap2, like a monolith, does this hold any weight?

Does it reduce scatter by the firer's bs? If you are shooting it like a weapon, and you can take cover saves, id imagine it subtracts bs.

can you flat out and use it? Not shot in the shooting phase.

Does this mean, that if it doesnt hit a vehicle, im hitting them with a S4 shot?

Nope, the whole blast is AP2.

As for scatter, just like the Big Bomm I would say that is scatters the full D6 because it explicitly gives directions in its rules on how to scatter and reducing the scatter by BS isn't included.

The rules specifically state that 'it counts as using a weapon' so I don't think it can be used when moving flat-out...although like much of it, you really don't have a clear answer.

It is a blast weapon, so if the center of the blast isn't on a vehicle then it will be hitting it at half strength...of course, like I said before *how* you determine the armor facing you hit is really questionable.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:agreed, maybe GW will be graceful enough to faq that

It sure needs it, but they didn't FAQ the Grenade Packs or Ork Big Bomm so who knows if they will!

Yak - you are only restricted by speed on firing weapons in the shooting phase, not the movement phase, so going flat out and dropping it seems to work....

yakface wrote:The rules specifically state that 'it counts as using a weapon' so I don't think it can be used when moving flat-out...although like much of it, you really don't have a clear answer.

Aside from the flat-out, what if the vehicle moves at combat/cruising speed? Will this "counts as a weapon" also count as one of the weapons it can fire i the shooting phase?

Which is why I dont think it matters at all - you are only resitrcted in the shooting phase. There is no mention made of any restriction on firing in the movement phase.

So the "counts as using a weapon" is there to prevent the mine from being used while Shaken? But not for anything else?

Note that I don't disagree. I am merely exploring the possibilities of looking at it that way.

Thats the effect - whether that is what they *meant* is another thing entirely!

I agree.

While it seems RAW, it might not be something worth building an army around.

Some things just seem like they are too good to be true, like the late mutual coversave.

yakface wrote:
As for scatter, just like the Big Bomm I would say that is scatters the full D6 because it explicitly gives directions in its rules on how to scatter and reducing the scatter by BS isn't included.

Would disagree with that. The doubles chart for a SAG MEK doesn't say the shot scatters but it is generally accepted it does. This one doesn't say subtract the BS but there is nothing that states that part of the rule is ignored. It just tells you to use one die instead of 2.

Meaning it isnt using the normal "Blast" rules for scattering, which is where the subtract BS is found.

Steelmage99 wrote:I agree.

While it seems RAW, it might not be something worth building an army around.

Some things just seem like they are too good to be true, like the late mutual coversave.

For what it's worth, I find it completely fluffy that the VRB would be able to drop it's bomb during a Flat-Out move. For some reason, I find the image of the bomber screaming overhead at breakneck speed while dropping off its payload to be totally in line with how I envision Dark Eldar to conduct their warfare.

its fluffy - yes, but you can't use weapons on the Flat-Out move.

penek wrote:its fluffy - yes, but you can't use weapons on the Flat-Out move.

Incorrect. Please show some actual rules for this.

You cannot fire any weapons in the SHOOTING PHASE, but there are no restrictions on firing weapons in any other phase.

Incorrect. Please show some actual rules for this.

Page 47: Note that this counts as using a weapon.

So it follows all the restrictions of using a weapon.

Sigh.

Please now find the rule I pointed you towards, which is that you cannot fire any weapons in the SHOOTING PHASE when you move flat out.

Answer me this: is the shooting phase also the movement phase?

All like things specificaly mention of "possible use" on Flat-Out, while VM doesn't say anything.
Via your logic - you too can't use it on the flat-out, because its not allowed anywhere..

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sigh.

Please now find the rule I pointed you towards, which is that you cannot fire any weapons in the SHOOTING PHASE when you move flat out.

Answer me this: is the shooting phase also the movement phase?

show line where its allowed ? using VM on flat-out.

I can fire weapons

I am restricted from firing weapons, in the shooting phase, when moving flat out.

I am not firing weapons in the shootiung phase, therefore I retain permission to fire weapons.

Done. Now show a restrictin that applies when moving flat out to weapons fired in the movement phase, or concede.

You lie, nowhere in BRB exist a line that say - you can shoot in Movement phase. Only in your imagination.
ps. i remember how you said

Unless it states it works against hits, it doesnt. Saves only work against wounds, as defined in their rules.

about Flickerfield, now GWAR uses them... and i think you too use them no? its you said - that they don't work. Same here?

penek wrote:You lie, nowhere in BRB exist a line that say - you can shoot in Movement phase. Only in your imagination.

The void mine is used during movement, no?

penek wrote:You lie, nowhere in BRB exist a line that say - you can shoot in Movement phase. Only in your imagination.
ps. i remember how you said

Unless it states it works against hits, it doesnt. Saves only work against wounds, as defined in their rules.

about Flickerfield, now GWAR uses them... and i think you too use them no? its you said - that they don't work. Same here?

The rules for the Void Mine itself allow you to fire in the Movement phase.

Here are the pertinent rules.

1. All models that have a ranged weapon may normally use them in the Shooting Phase.

2. If a vehicle moves Flat Out, it may not fire any weapons in that Shooting Phase.

3. The rules for the Void Mine specify that it is used in the Shooting Phase.

If I move Flat Out in the Movement Phase and use the Void Mine, I have broken none of these rules. If you think this situation does involve a breaking of the rules, what rule has been broken? Remember, the Void Mine specifies that it is used in the Movement Phase, and the rules for Flat Out specify a restriction on firing in the Shooting Phase.

they count as using weapon no?
and you can also check p70 of BRB, paragraph called:
Fast Vehicles Firing.
Last line.

Wrong again. I never said that line you gave. It IS however in the rules for voidmine. IO suggest you read then retract your falsehood, NOW

you have general permission to fire weapons, you are given SPECIFICpermission to fire the void mine in tjhe movement phase, and you can only find a restriction in the shooting phase

Find a line, in the rules. restricting you from firing in the movement phase OR concede.

Saldiven wrote:
2. If a vehicle moves Flat Out, it may not fire any weapons in that Shooting Phase.

3. The rules for the Void Mine specify that it is used in the Shooting Phase.

If I move Flat Out in the Movement Phase and use the Void Mine, I have broken none of these rules. If you think this situation does involve a breaking of the rules, what rule has been broken? Remember, the Void Mine specifies that it is used in the Movement Phase, and the rules for Flat Out specify a restriction on firing in the Shooting Phase.

Go reread rules, and stop writting nonsence again.
p70 of brb Fast Vehicles firing - last line:

Fast vehicles moving flat-out may fire no weapons.

And speak no more about shooting phase, as its even not mentioned.

Page 58, try rereading it.

Page 70 is a modification of the shooting rules, all based on speed, all based on shooting phases. It helps if you read everything before insulting people with a better grasp of the rules than you.

I need to get that codex.
If it is used during the move, there would not be a restriction.
If it is after, it seems that it cannot be used.

/shrug

More to read!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wrong again. I never said that line you gave. It IS however in the rules for voidmine. IO suggest you read then retract your falsehood, NOW

you have general permission to fire weapons, you are given SPECIFICpermission to fire the void mine in tjhe movement phase, and you can only find a restriction in the shooting phase

Find a line, in the rules. restricting you from firing in the movement phase OR concede.

do you want direct url on the quote? i can bring it to you...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/323493.page#2041214
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/323493.page#2043380
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/323493.page#2044521 ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 58, try rereading it.

Page 70 is a modification of the shooting rules, all based on speed, all based on shooting phases. It helps if you read everything before insulting people with a better grasp of the rules than you.

i dont care, by RAW as you wanna play here - its not allowed, because moving flat-out deny you shooting. (Shooting - not shooting in Shooting phase)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:I need to get that codex.
If it is used during the move, there would not be a restriction.
If it is after, it seems that it cannot be used.

/shrug

More to read!

Its used after move\or while moving:
During VRB movement phase, it may place a small blast marker centered upon any one model it has passed over that turn.....

If we compare it to the closest entry which is the ork kopta, the kopta actually states even if it has turbo boosted. Now if the void raven does not have a similar line in it's rules, you cannot use the bomb going flat out. The rules quoted say that the bomb on a VR is treated as a shooting attack. A flat out moving vehicle may not use any shooting attacks. It does not say may not use a shooting attack in the shooting phase, it says may not use a shooting attack. While comparing it to similar abilities on other units, I imagine that it will be FAQ'd to allow you to do this, right now, RAW stop you as I read them.