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notabot187 wrote:

tedurur wrote:A fist is not taken as insurance in a scout squad it is taken because you want 3 Str 8 auto hits vs tanks. Paying 10 pts extra for that is a steal

Scouts vs tanks is not a good use of scouts. Tanks usually move when near fists, and aren't on the board edge with flanking fists coming in (don't assume opponent is a moron or best case scenario). So 1.5 hits instead of auto hits. Rear armor is 10, so need a 3+ to pen. So 1 pen. Need a 5+ to destroy so .33 vehicles destroyed with the fist. Then the squad usually dies due to being out in the open with 4+ armor. If the tank moved more than 6, the numbers are even more dismal. Then there is the whole problem of scouts not having any other anti tank assault weapons... So you are sending an anti infantry unit at a armored unit? Paying a premium to make a squad bad at a role it is not even meant for is not points well spent.

If you could give your scouts melta weapons, then I would MAYBE see the point of a fist (wolf scouts can take melta, but they don't get sarges, and can't take fists). Or I would just point out the issue of paying for a fist when you could just use the free krak grenades the squad has. Against 95 percent of the vehicles that you face, Krak can pen the rear armor. Against the 5 percent that krak doesn't... a fist only glances. A melta bomb is better... but why assault a land raider with a scout squad?

This is just plain wrong. If you're using the scouts turn one the tank won't have moved so you will be auto-hitting. Even if you aren't 3 shots at rolling a 4 to hit the rear armor of a tank is better than a single krak grenade. The entire idea behind scouts in storms is to roll up and annihilate a large chunk of the enemies armor before they even get a chance to use it. Also, scouts can take melta weapons. Like I said earlier you give the scouts' sarge a fist and combi-melta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oriphus wrote:So since I went with the power sword on the sarg, will I be OK if I strap some meltabombs on him for anti-tank?

Yes, you'll want to give him a melta bomb in this case.

A fact that every space marine player should know:
Scouts are really bad against everything. infantry or tanks. Sure the math would tell you that they can do amazing things thanks to rending sniper rifles but consider this: They are not reliable at killing things. And because they aren't then they shouldn't be.

So what do we do? We focus on what they do best: Holding objectives.

How?:

Give them camo cloaks. Let them go to ground when they get fire. Thats 2+ cover save for you - 2+ save is better than doing a round of shooting. Force your opponent to dedicate a a fraction of his army to assault your scouts in cover - That is a lot of effort to kill a 90 point unit (5 man scouts, camo cloaks, heavy weapon).

The way to think with scouts is how you will want them to hold an objective. The ML and sniper rifles or watever are just gravy. In a close combat role, its the PFist Sgt doing all the work. In the shooting role its HB or ML (rarely the ML tho).

Theres a unique way of playing them and thats the land speeder storm aplha strike which is already covered. Doing suicide runs is not my cup of coffee especially when a typhoon competes for its slot.

TL;DR version:

You are putting too much thought on a very simple unit.

Monster Rain wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

tedurur wrote:A fist is not taken as insurance in a scout squad it is taken because you want 3 Str 8 auto hits vs tanks. Paying 10 pts extra for that is a steal

Scouts vs tanks is not a good use of scouts.

This is possibly the most false thing I've ever heard on a 40k forum. Especially on the first turn, auto-hitting and glancing on 2s, penning on 3s in most cases with the fist. When a combi-melta is added to the mix it just gets better, especially if you're talking about Chimeras full of squishy guardsmen or similar.

Scouts vs tanks, in the right situation, is an excellent use of scouts. Two battle reports to illustrate my point:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329682.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311802.page

Scouts thrashing tanks is a pretty important part of both of these battles, as well as the report that I'm currently working on.

So 160 points for the combi, fist, and transport? Too much IMHO for 1 BS3 melta shot, and a ideal situation that only occurs when you go first and when your opponent deploys the right types of units the way you want them to.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

starsdawn wrote:From another thread:

notabot187 wrote:Sure, BS 3 is a bit of as drag for people used to hitting with BS 4... But honestly it isn't that big a deal (uless you missile launch with krak, or shoot solid HB). It is just bolter fire (which you should never take a squad just for). The main purpose of a small shooting scout squad is the HB blast. The difference between BS 3 and 4 when you are talking about a small poisoned blast is not a big deal.

And WS 3 versus WS 4 is so much different?

You said thatsniper scouts can't move and shoot. True, but the question is "do they need to move and shoot because they have really long range shots and can sit on an objective?" Also another question would be "why are you taking a heavy bolter if you want to move and shoot?" and "Do I want to move and shoot while I'm sitting on an objective?" What's the purpose of moving and shooting if,as you say, the main purpose of the scouts is for the HB and you shouldn't take scouts for the bolter fire only?

Yes, WS 3 and WS is a completely different thing. First off, WS 3 still hits WS 6 and lower on a 4. Sure it gets hit back on a 3... If you want better you have to pay for better lol. And only hitting guard on 4s isn't a big deal when you don't need to kill every model, just enough to win combat by enough to run them down.

As for the whole move and shoot thing... It is more of a can you shoot if you are forced to move? If you are talking a midfield unit meant to control some movement lanes (like people attempting scout moves) or add to your anti infantry options, then bolters are a good fall back weapon compared to bolt pistols that sniper scouts have. Sniper scouts are limited to just 1 shot. Bolter scouts can occasionally get 2 shots.

If you want a backfield sit on your home unit, sniper scouts work somewhat well. If you want a midfield unit like how I use them then bolter scouts are probably better.

Yuber wrote:A fact that every space marine player should know:
Scouts are really bad against everything. infantry or tanks. Sure the math would tell you that they can do amazing things thanks to rending sniper rifles but consider this: They are not reliable at killing things. And because they aren't then they shouldn't be.

That simply isn't true.

notabot187 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

tedurur wrote:A fist is not taken as insurance in a scout squad it is taken because you want 3 Str 8 auto hits vs tanks. Paying 10 pts extra for that is a steal

Scouts vs tanks is not a good use of scouts.

This is possibly the most false thing I've ever heard on a 40k forum. Especially on the first turn, auto-hitting and glancing on 2s, penning on 3s in most cases with the fist. When a combi-melta is added to the mix it just gets better, especially if you're talking about Chimeras full of squishy guardsmen or similar.

Scouts vs tanks, in the right situation, is an excellent use of scouts. Two battle reports to illustrate my point:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329682.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311802.page

Scouts thrashing tanks is a pretty important part of both of these battles, as well as the report that I'm currently working on.

So 160 points for the combi, fist, and transport? Too much IMHO for 1 BS3 melta shot, and a ideal situation that only occurs when you go first and when your opponent deploys the right types of units the way you want them to.

You didn't look at those links, did you? In both instances the storm came in from outflanking and saved the day.

BS3 is mitigated by taking Vulkan, or as I like to do, a Heavy Flamer which is very handy to have around and doesn't rely on BS.

Yeah, I didn't look at those. one of those to long didn't read things (TLDR).

Outflanking storms are one of those things I like in theory, but then start thinking about how many things have to go right for it to work. Can I have 160-175 points (mm on the storm) sitting off the board for a good portion of the game? What are the odds of the single shot melta + the MM , or failing that, the PF in CC is going to do its job. What are the odds it will even show up where I need to be? Will there be a target when I get there? What happens if it doesn't work? What happens if it does?

I do know it can work for some lists doing that, but it isn't at efficient for lists that keep most of their units on the board.

As for vulcan, not a fan usually, but in this case it is a creative way to run salamanders.

notabot187 wrote:Yeah, I didn't look at those. one of those to long didn't read things (TLDR).

Outflanking storms are one of those things I like in theory, but then start thinking about how many things have to go right for it to work. Can I have 160-175 points (mm on the storm) sitting off the board for a good portion of the game? What are the odds of the single shot melta + the MM , or failing that, the PF in CC is going to do its job. What are the odds it will even show up where I need to be? Will there be a target when I get there? What happens if it doesn't work? What happens if it does?

Considering that 2/3 of standard missions are objective based, and you get to place at least one objective in each of those, and the scouts are a scoring unit, the case for this type of unit sort of makes itself.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330734.page

Hot off the presses, Scouts being very useful while outflanking with a combi-melta.

Monster Rain wrote:

Yuber wrote:A fact that every space marine player should know:
Scouts are really bad against everything. infantry or tanks. Sure the math would tell you that they can do amazing things thanks to rending sniper rifles but consider this: They are not reliable at killing things. And because they aren't then they shouldn't be.

That simply isn't true.

notabot187 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

tedurur wrote:A fist is not taken as insurance in a scout squad it is taken because you want 3 Str 8 auto hits vs tanks. Paying 10 pts extra for that is a steal

Scouts vs tanks is not a good use of scouts.

This is possibly the most false thing I've ever heard on a 40k forum. Especially on the first turn, auto-hitting and glancing on 2s, penning on 3s in most cases with the fist. When a combi-melta is added to the mix it just gets better, especially if you're talking about Chimeras full of squishy guardsmen or similar.

Scouts vs tanks, in the right situation, is an excellent use of scouts. Two battle reports to illustrate my point:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329682.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311802.page

Scouts thrashing tanks is a pretty important part of both of these battles, as well as the report that I'm currently working on.

So 160 points for the combi, fist, and transport? Too much IMHO for 1 BS3 melta shot, and a ideal situation that only occurs when you go first and when your opponent deploys the right types of units the way you want them to.

You didn't look at those links, did you? In both instances the storm came in from outflanking and saved the day.

BS3 is mitigated by taking Vulkan, or as I like to do, a Heavy Flamer which is very handy to have around and doesn't rely on BS.

Just because they worked on a sunny day doesn't make them good. I mean, if they are good, why is no one using them at all?

They do work, but working =/= good.

On the contrary, working for what you want them to accomplish does in fact mean they're good.

Monster Rain wrote:On the contrary, working for what you want them to accomplish does in fact mean they're good.

Yes, but the more meaningful question is, do they always work? Do they work most of the time to call them reliable?

Yuber wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Yuber wrote:A fact that every space marine player should know:
Scouts are really bad against everything. infantry or tanks. Sure the math would tell you that they can do amazing things thanks to rending sniper rifles but consider this: They are not reliable at killing things. And because they aren't then they shouldn't be.

That simply isn't true.

notabot187 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

tedurur wrote:A fist is not taken as insurance in a scout squad it is taken because you want 3 Str 8 auto hits vs tanks. Paying 10 pts extra for that is a steal

Scouts vs tanks is not a good use of scouts.

This is possibly the most false thing I've ever heard on a 40k forum. Especially on the first turn, auto-hitting and glancing on 2s, penning on 3s in most cases with the fist. When a combi-melta is added to the mix it just gets better, especially if you're talking about Chimeras full of squishy guardsmen or similar.

Scouts vs tanks, in the right situation, is an excellent use of scouts. Two battle reports to illustrate my point:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329682.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311802.page

Scouts thrashing tanks is a pretty important part of both of these battles, as well as the report that I'm currently working on.

So 160 points for the combi, fist, and transport? Too much IMHO for 1 BS3 melta shot, and a ideal situation that only occurs when you go first and when your opponent deploys the right types of units the way you want them to.

You didn't look at those links, did you? In both instances the storm came in from outflanking and saved the day.

BS3 is mitigated by taking Vulkan, or as I like to do, a Heavy Flamer which is very handy to have around and doesn't rely on BS.

Just because they worked on a sunny day doesn't make them good. I mean, if they are good, why is no one using them at all?

They do work, but working =/= good.

I use them. Several other people in this thread have talked about using them. Last time I checked I was some one, and I would be willing to bet the other people are someones too. Are they an amazing unit? No. Are they a must have? No. Are they terrible? No. Are they the worst unit in the Codex? No. Not taking the best doesn't mean you are taking the worst. Given that the C:SM troops choices are both average at best taking a squad or two in storms (which is cheap compared to a tac in Rhino or Drop Pod) to scout up or outflank to tank hunt isn't a terrible idea. I would also argue that taking the Storm w/ MM and Squad with Combi Melta/PF is more likely to pop the tank you are going after (especially with Vulkan) than just a single HF/MM speeder, single Attack Bike w/MM or Tac squad with Melta gun. Also let's not forget the Sarge is WS/BS 4 not 3.

@yuber: I would say yes, honestly.

They take a little practice, but I am completely serious when I say that I don't get why everyone doesn't use them.

Why do people require something to work 100% or 99% of the time for it to be called reliable.

The scouts will come in on Turn 4 (ignoring any modifiers) and provide your army with a non linear element. They force your opponent to decide to be near the board edges and get hit on that edge 66% of the time, or funnel through the center of the board.

Against armies with long range shooters you get to go straight in to hit them. Long Fangs, Devastators, stationary tanks, IG heavy weapons...They are good for many reasons and they are reliable because they create uncertainty for your opponent. They also can potentially inflict a decent amount of damage.

I am always sad in some ways when the last of my reserves comes in because the deployment of the units on the board becomes deterministic.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Yuber wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Yuber wrote:A fact that every space marine player should know:
Scouts are really bad against everything. infantry or tanks. Sure the math would tell you that they can do amazing things thanks to rending sniper rifles but consider this: They are not reliable at killing things. And because they aren't then they shouldn't be.

That simply isn't true.

notabot187 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

tedurur wrote:A fist is not taken as insurance in a scout squad it is taken because you want 3 Str 8 auto hits vs tanks. Paying 10 pts extra for that is a steal

Scouts vs tanks is not a good use of scouts.

This is possibly the most false thing I've ever heard on a 40k forum. Especially on the first turn, auto-hitting and glancing on 2s, penning on 3s in most cases with the fist. When a combi-melta is added to the mix it just gets better, especially if you're talking about Chimeras full of squishy guardsmen or similar.

Scouts vs tanks, in the right situation, is an excellent use of scouts. Two battle reports to illustrate my point:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329682.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311802.page

Scouts thrashing tanks is a pretty important part of both of these battles, as well as the report that I'm currently working on.

So 160 points for the combi, fist, and transport? Too much IMHO for 1 BS3 melta shot, and a ideal situation that only occurs when you go first and when your opponent deploys the right types of units the way you want them to.

You didn't look at those links, did you? In both instances the storm came in from outflanking and saved the day.

BS3 is mitigated by taking Vulkan, or as I like to do, a Heavy Flamer which is very handy to have around and doesn't rely on BS.

Just because they worked on a sunny day doesn't make them good. I mean, if they are good, why is no one using them at all?

They do work, but working =/= good.

I use them. Several other people in this thread have talked about using them. Last time I checked I was some one, and I would be willing to bet the other people are someones too. Are they an amazing unit? No. Are they a must have? No. Are they terrible? No. Are they the worst unit in the Codex? No. Not taking the best doesn't mean you are taking the worst. Given that the C:SM troops choices are both average at best taking a squad or two in storms (which is cheap compared to a tac in Rhino or Drop Pod) to scout up or outflank to tank hunt isn't a terrible idea. I would also argue that taking the Storm w/ MM and Squad with Combi Melta/PF is more likely to pop the tank you are going after (especially with Vulkan) than just a single HF/MM speeder, single Attack Bike w/MM or Tac squad with Melta gun. Also let's not forget the Sarge is WS/BS 4 not 3.

Not to diminish from your point, but a scout squad loaded up as such costs the same as a pair of MM/HF Speeders. TO which I would say the cost is comparable (and yields the same amount of killpoints) however the scouts can hold an objective, tie up a unit in assault... etc. There will be cases where they can't do much at all, but the same can be said for any unit. I'd say if you're taking any, take a pair, so that if the only things on the board are too tough for Scouts to take on, you can double team them. 6 Power fist attacks and 24 S4 attacks are nothing to sneeze at for a first turn charge, especially when coupled with a pair of Heavy Flamers or Multi-Meltas from the Storms themselves.

I would say that the unit really relies on Vulkan to make up for its accuracy. In normal lists the units lose a fair amount of effectiveness because of the much higher chance for missed shots or failed wounds.

Monster Rain wrote:@yuber: I would say yes, honestly.

They take a little practice, but I am completely serious when I say that I don't get why everyone doesn't use them.

Because scout storms are a niche unit. Whatever role they would like to play, some other codex choice would clock in better.

To give an example in the anti tank suicide role:

Option 1: A scout sapper rush unit costs: 160 points (75 + 50 + 25 + 10).
Option 2: A drop pod meltacide sternguard with 4 combi meltas: 180 points(125 + 35 + 20)
Option 3: An iron clad drop pod : 170 (135 + 35)

now lets dissect these choices which roughly have the same cost:

Option 1
+Has the ability to alpha strike a unit. Its very effective against long fangs type unit and tanks if and only if you got first turn. (disclaimer: when I say alpha strike I meant doing something big on the 1st turn.)
+Scoring. The storm can contest objectives later or even claim them if the scouts remain inside. Outflanking them is a nice but tricky prospect.
-Easy kill points. not only 1 kill point but 2.
-Contends with a fast attack slot. may or may not be an issue to army lists.
*A melta gun is not very reliable since it only has 66% chance to hit. 88% if you have vulkan. For the powerfist to work you need the opponent to not move, or get turn 1 - which is pretty easy.

Option 2
+4 melta shots more often than not will kill or stop any vehicle right of the bat
-Inability to assault anything on the 1st turn like scout storms.
-Tendency to scatter and lose those melta range shots
+Resilience. These guys are not easy killpoints - at least compared to Option1.
+Contingency - if they fail to perform their sapper roles, they are still awesome at shooting stuff thanks to special ammo.
*possible scoring. If you have Pedro Kantor.

Option 3
+Alpha HF and meltagun, the former is reliable the latter isnt.
-Scatter problems with the pod.
+Extremely threatening - no one wants the Iron clad alive before the turn they get to assault.
+Av13 is a very very hard AV to deal with, esp if the walker has free EA and Smoke launchers.


Now, you noticed I didnt include the more popular choice for an FA slot which means typhoons and Tornados because they are cheaper. If you would notice: all 3 are niche units - regarding the choice of getting them: we can classify player groups into 4: the first three being groups that take option 1, 2 and 3 and the 4th one who will simply use other units. See where Im getting at?

This is the reason why no one uses them.

Alpha strike isn't the only reason I use them. You're focusing way too much on that. It's only a small part of what they can do.

Outflanking isn't tricky if you know what you're doing. You get to place at least one objective in any mission that has them.

Yuber wrote:
So what do we do? We focus on what they do best: Holding objectives.

How?:

Give them camo cloaks. Let them go to ground when they get fire. Thats 2+ cover save for you - 2+ save is better than doing a round of shooting. Force your opponent to dedicate a a fraction of his army to assault your scouts in cover - That is a lot of effort to kill a 90 point unit (5 man scouts, camo cloaks, heavy weapon).

Or instead of camos, add a Telion since he basically gives everyone camos. I think two BS 6 rending shots, with a possibility of allocating your own wounds, plus also an almost-always hitting heavybolter/ML, PLUS free camo cloaks is more than enough for his upgrade.

One point I'd like to add, I think these guys are good at taking down Dreadnoughts. The PF scout sergeant has the just as good of a chance as taking down a Dread as a Tac Squad sergeant, but with the advantage of not losing a bunch of valuable guys that can't effect the thing. If you kill the Dread, great. If not, well, you should be free to shoot the thing next turn.

Commander Endova wrote:One point I'd like to add, I think these guys are good at taking down Dreadnoughts. The PF scout sergeant has the just as good of a chance as taking down a Dread as a Tac Squad sergeant, but with the advantage of not losing a bunch of valuable guys that can't effect the thing. If you kill the Dread, great. If not, well, you should be free to shoot the thing next turn.

Which is IMHO, not very good. You are using a 160 point unit to kill a 105 pt unit. And very bad at that too.

Commander Endova wrote:One point I'd like to add, I think these guys are good at taking down Dreadnoughts. The PF scout sergeant has the just as good of a chance as taking down a Dread as a Tac Squad sergeant, but with the advantage of not losing a bunch of valuable guys that can't effect the thing. If you kill the Dread, great. If not, well, you should be free to shoot the thing next turn.

I wouldn't say a good shot at taking one down when you are looking at pretty dismal odds. 3 attacks on charge, 1.5 hits, need a 5 to pen (so .5 pen) need a 5+ to destroy. So 17 percent destroyed on the charge. If it is a IC, well, don't bother... squad is lost unless they run away and regroup. Also the scouts aren't THAT much cheaper than a regular SM that you can throw them away with such a bad fight. A melta bomb for comparison in CC needs a 6, so 17 percent, then needs a 5 on 2 dice, (very good odds actually, 83 percent) then rolling a 5+ soooo 5 percent with a melta bomb. Squad is still probably screwed, but at least it was a less expensive loss. After all, an option that is 5x times more expensive yet only just a little bit more effective is not a good deal when it comes down to it. Best option for taking down dreds remains shooting it with high strength, preferably melta rule, or at least with a S8 or better weapon.

Agreed. Its not the optimal way to get the job done. But I think it would work just as well as a tac squad doing it, and it's funny when it happens.

Commander Endova wrote:Agreed. Its not the optimal way to get the job done. But I think it would work just as well as a tac squad doing it, and it's funny when it happens.

A sound tactic if the dread is in assault range of something more valuable, like a Pred, an IC or a terminator squad. You throw a bone against a dreadnought to keep it busy.

I would say that the unit really relies on Vulkan to make up for its accuracy. In normal lists the units lose a fair amount of effectiveness because of the much higher chance for missed shots or failed wounds.

I run them in a Pedro list and 4 S8 and 16 S4 attacks from each unit + 4 BP shots and 2 templates is fun.

For those saying they aren't realiable they are, just not 100%. NO unit in the codex will win 100%, I've had gun drones beat up a lictor in close combat. I've had Calgar get shot to death by 7 bolt pistols in 1 turn. Hammernators can and will whiff at times.

The scouts however are very good at killing the right targets. Unlike say Tactical squads that are never very good at anything. A 5 man scout squad making a first turn charge can easily blow 2 vehicles up, they can annihilate a guard blob squad, a 10 man Necron warrior unit or a 20 boy Ork Shoota mob (the most common competitive build). Unlike tac squads or assault squads they have a vastely superior delivery system. A delivery system allowing you to choose how and where they fight, which is what winning a game of 40k is all about. A delivery system that reduces the enemies Ld by 2 helping you break them on the crucial charge. The cause your opponent problems. Does he avoid the edges cutting off 42" of the board (well over half), does he reserve his stuff to keep it safde (meaning he has to come on peice meal). Does he attempt to bubble wrap (forcing him into a bunched deployment idea for Death stars to walk through).

Units that cuase your opponent to make diffciult decisions and that allow you to choose how and where you fight are units that win you games of 40k. Scouts in a LSS are exactly this type of unit. Tac squads will never be.

You are breaking a blob with 5 scouts? A stubborn blob with power weapons? That sounds extremely unlikely. That said, there are usually better targets for 1st turn chargers vs IG anyways

You are breaking a blob with 5 scouts? A stubborn blob with power weapons? That sounds extremely unlikely. That said, there are usually better targets for 1st turn chargers vs IG anyways

Well not a stubborn one, but a 20 man can be taken down even if stubborn and the power weapons aren't a great threat unless you're looking at 5+ and then you wouldn't assault that unit. Most IG armies deploy lots of heavy tanks and have lots of small units are veterans and either choice is ideal for 5 scouts to bust apart.

I'd say the only army you'd struggle to find a decent target in are SWs and even most of those are razorback spam so if you can assault 2 razorbacks or get at the longfangs you should be good.

Yuber wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:One point I'd like to add, I think these guys are good at taking down Dreadnoughts. The PF scout sergeant has the just as good of a chance as taking down a Dread as a Tac Squad sergeant, but with the advantage of not losing a bunch of valuable guys that can't effect the thing. If you kill the Dread, great. If not, well, you should be free to shoot the thing next turn.

Which is IMHO, not very good. You are using a 160 point unit to kill a 105 pt unit. And very bad at that too.

I don't think that comparing points is always a good indicator of usefulness.

A Battlewagon costs less than the scouts, but I'd trade them in a second to get Ghazkull and whatever he's riding with out of that vehicle and walking.

But in the case of a unit like a dreadnought, where it really has no synergy with another unit, then a point comparison is a good place to start.

The transport is a support unit, so its points are not directly telling of its battlefield value. On the other hand, the dread's points are.

Monster Rain wrote:Alpha strike isn't the only reason I use them. You're focusing way too much on that. It's only a small part of what they can do.

Outflanking isn't tricky if you know what you're doing. You get to place at least one objective in any mission that has them.

QF mfing Truth.

The scoring unit status of the scouts, and their long threat range off the table edges, gives them uses that no other unit duplicates. They're not very durable, but can easily come in where the enemy will have trouble applying the force needed to kill them. Vulkan definitely adds to their reliability/hitting power, though, with combi-melta and heavy flamer for the Storm.

As I mentioned before, the 10 man unit with CCWs in a Shrike army is solid too. 1st turn assaults are a good thing.

I like how Yuber (and possibly notabot187) have failed to recognise that a scout sarge is WS4 and BS4. He's still as good as a regular marine, just wearing cotton trousers instead of PA ones.

Me personally I wouldn't use CC scouts. That 4+ armour save is somewhat off-putting to have in a unit that you wish to engage something. True, a PF and some other weapons may help out depending on what you throw them at, but I would rather take my sniper scouts.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:I like how Yuber (and possibly notabot187) have failed to recognise that a scout sarge is WS4 and BS4. He's still as good as a regular marine, just wearing cotton trousers instead of PA ones.

Me personally I wouldn't use CC scouts. That 4+ armour save is somewhat off-putting to have in a unit that you wish to engage something. True, a PF and some other weapons may help out depending on what you throw them at, but I would rather take my sniper scouts.

I like how you fail to notice that BS4 is only 66% to hit. And then you have the damage table to deal with.

89% likely with Vulkan. And melta gives you 50% chance of a kill on a pen, and 16% on a glance.