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Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:@Melissia: Corrupted is not the same thing as tainted. The Tyranids just like everyone has been infected with Nurgles Rot. That does not mean they serve chaos which is what is being referanced when people say corrupted.

tyranids don't serve chaos as chaos has nothing to offer the hive mind. tyranids do not fear death, do not hate, or desire excess, all the want is to eat.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:@Melissia: Corrupted is not the same thing as tainted. The Tyranids just like everyone has been infected with Nurgles Rot. That does not mean they serve chaos which is what is being referanced when people say corrupted.

No, I mean corrupted. A splinter fleet was turned to chaos and used as a transport for a titan at one point.

And being soulless still doesn't mean corrupted. In fact, corrupted objects are some of the most dangerous things in 40k.

I still would say they're best likened to cells, just very advanced super evolved cells.

Melissia wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:@Melissia: Corrupted is not the same thing as tainted. The Tyranids just like everyone has been infected with Nurgles Rot. That does not mean they serve chaos which is what is being referanced when people say corrupted.

No, I mean corrupted. A splinter fleet was turned to chaos and used as a transport for a titan at one point.

And where does this come from

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:@Melissia: Corrupted is not the same thing as tainted. The Tyranids just like everyone has been infected with Nurgles Rot. That does not mean they serve chaos which is what is being referanced when people say corrupted.

No, I mean corrupted. A splinter fleet was turned to chaos and used as a transport for a titan at one point.

And where does this come from

One of the Iron Warriors novels. They corrupt a Hive Ship to use as a titan transport. Not a fleet, just a ship.

In the book "Storm of Iron" a Tyranid bioship that had dived into the Eye of Terror was corrupted and used to transport Chaos Titans. It probably wouldn't be able to rejoin the hive mind if it wanted to anyways.

Rube wrote:I'm not sure a hormagaunt has much choice in how it kills. It has giant scythes for hands. The hormagaunt who looked down at hands that would make Baraka feel inadequate and decided to kill by slapping his tail at enemies instead rides the short bus to the brooding vat. :/

But yeah, Tyranids aren't literally identical to cells. They have their 'Instinctive Behaviour' stuff, so they must have brains. Maybe they have souls, joined together into some collective gestalt like the Orks. Maybe just the overtly psychic 'nids do, like Zoanthropes and Norn Queens. Maybe only the Norn Queens do, and even Zoanthropes are just soulless conduits.

Haha yes, they do have scythes for hands. You nailed the nail on the head exactly though, instinctive behavior. Say a bunch of bullet shield 'nids are thrown at a IG base. Then on the way a squad of shock troopers is sent to shake them up. (completely bogus spur of the moment story, IG would never send one squad to "shake up" a huge Tyranid invasion.) The hormogaunts, gaunts, rippers, etc. would have to act on their own. It is possible since the hive mind is incredibly powerful but I doubt it would bother itself with such a menial task, as to killing a single squad of IG. While a full planetary invasion is going on.

@: Khorne Flakes: I always thought the Tyranids avoided the Necrons out of some sort of fear myself or advanced technological means.

@Melissia: Corrupted is not the same thing as tainted. The Tyranids just like everyone has been infected with Nurgles Rot. That does not mean they serve chaos which is what is being referanced when people say corrupted.

No the 'nids avoid the Necrons because they are much harder to "digest" if possible at all. However you are correct about the tainted/corrupted thing. No 'nid while under the control of the hive mind has enough free will to "serve" chaos. Definitely not the larger Tyranid, they have a part of the hive mind in them. So they are never out of the will of the hive mind.

Gus_Papas wrote:As I understand it, Tyranids are soulless. If you look at the relationship Tyranids have with Necrons, you understand this: Necrons avoid Tyranids because they have no souls to harvest, and Tyranids avoid Necrons because they (Necrons) have no biomass.

That's a very good point, i've never tought of it like that....

Except when they are.

Animals can be corrupted by chaos, so any creature which is not within synapse range can be as well.

Tyranids can definitely be corrupted, it's only the protection of the hive mind that prevents it. If they aren't protected by it (IE, no synapse), then they're just animals, and therefor open to corruption if a person wants to bad enough.

Animals can be mutated by Chaos which again isn't the same thing as corrupted. Do they worship Chaos and do they worship the gods? no they don't. Did the Tyranids in the Iron Warriors story worship the gods of Chaos, did they sacrifice skulls to Khorne or spread disease in the name of Nurgle? I highly doubt they did. Especially since we all know how innacurate writers can be in terms of staying true to the established fluff.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Haha yes, they do have scythes for hands. You nailed the nail on the head exactly though, instinctive behavior. Say a bunch of bullet shield 'nids are thrown at a IG base. Then on the way a squad of shock troopers is sent to shake them up. (completely bogus spur of the moment story, IG would never send one squad to "shake up" a huge Tyranid invasion.) The hormogaunts, gaunts, rippers, etc. would have to act on their own. It is possible since the hive mind is incredibly powerful but I doubt it would bother itself with such a menial task, as to killing a single squad of IG. While a full planetary invasion is going on.

To be fair, you don't personally tell your white blood cells to attack foreign cells. You produce them as needed, then they go about doing their own thing. They just happen to be incapable of doing anything but attacking invaders.

Similar to 'gaunts - you might have free will, but if you have scythes for hands and a psyche designed to be aggressive toward anything foreign, your free will is always going to choose to solve every problem with 'attack foreigners with scythehands lol'.

I imagine that a Tyranid has a soul in the same way that your left foot, or your appendix has a soul.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Rube wrote:I'm not sure a hormagaunt has much choice in how it kills. It has giant scythes for hands. The hormagaunt who looked down at hands that would make Baraka feel inadequate and decided to kill by slapping his tail at enemies instead rides the short bus to the brooding vat. :/

But yeah, Tyranids aren't literally identical to cells. They have their 'Instinctive Behaviour' stuff, so they must have brains. Maybe they have souls, joined together into some collective gestalt like the Orks. Maybe just the overtly psychic 'nids do, like Zoanthropes and Norn Queens. Maybe only the Norn Queens do, and even Zoanthropes are just soulless conduits.

Haha yes, they do have scythes for hands. You nailed the nail on the head exactly though, instinctive behavior. Say a bunch of bullet shield 'nids are thrown at a IG base. Then on the way a squad of shock troopers is sent to shake them up. (completely bogus spur of the moment story, IG would never send one squad to "shake up" a huge Tyranid invasion.) The hormogaunts, gaunts, rippers, etc. would have to act on their own. It is possible since the hive mind is incredibly powerful but I doubt it would bother itself with such a menial task, as to killing a single squad of IG. While a full planetary invasion is going on.

Thats funny becouse its how cells work too, perprogamed beheavoir, and independent action. While the brain focus on the important things.

I always thought the hive mind was one giant soul for the nids. And that the shadow in the warp effect is the Hive mind taking up all the band with of warp space.

Noir wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Rube wrote:I'm not sure a hormagaunt has much choice in how it kills. It has giant scythes for hands. The hormagaunt who looked down at hands that would make Baraka feel inadequate and decided to kill by slapping his tail at enemies instead rides the short bus to the brooding vat. :/

But yeah, Tyranids aren't literally identical to cells. They have their 'Instinctive Behaviour' stuff, so they must have brains. Maybe they have souls, joined together into some collective gestalt like the Orks. Maybe just the overtly psychic 'nids do, like Zoanthropes and Norn Queens. Maybe only the Norn Queens do, and even Zoanthropes are just soulless conduits.

Haha yes, they do have scythes for hands. You nailed the nail on the head exactly though, instinctive behavior. Say a bunch of bullet shield 'nids are thrown at a IG base. Then on the way a squad of shock troopers is sent to shake them up. (completely bogus spur of the moment story, IG would never send one squad to "shake up" a huge Tyranid invasion.) The hormogaunts, gaunts, rippers, etc. would have to act on their own. It is possible since the hive mind is incredibly powerful but I doubt it would bother itself with such a menial task, as to killing a single squad of IG. While a full planetary invasion is going on.

Thats funny becouse its how cells work too, perprogamed beheavoir, and independent action. While the brain focus on the important things.

Well we all have valid points, but my main point is that I believe it possible for Tyranids to have souls. Why I think this way is because they CAN function without the hive mind. Now if they were to leave synapse and then fall over dead until another synaptic creature came by that would be a different story.

Another thing is "instincive behavior" what are they instinctive of? They were created by the hive mind, what instincts do they have?

Instict is preprogrammed behaviour. You don't learn instinct, your brain is just wired that way.

Tyranids might have instinctive behaviour because the Hive Mind programmed it into their brains so they could function to a limited degree if seperated from Synapse creatures. Or, as most 'nids were natural creatures at one point, the instincts are vestigal parts of their original behaviour.

Also a soul isn't necessary to function. There are creatures in 40k that have no souls and continue to function just fine (at the very least C'tan, and arguably Necrons and Blanks too), so it's possible for the Tyranids as well.

Necrons have souls, in fact that is a key part of their fluff is that their souls and intelligences where transplanted into robotic bodies. So it isn't arguable that Necrons don't have a soul.

They must have souls they are already corupted by the hive mind. From my nolige souless things cant be hert by psychic attacks and they can. also there are rouge nids there for they do have souls if they can controle themselves slitly.

Umm beings as Tyranids where created by the Hive Mind and are apart of it they wern't corrupted by it so I'd love to know where you came up with that.

Vehicles don't have souls and can be damaged by psychic attacks so how does that fit into your theory? I say again most psychic attacks don't harm the soul they harm the body in one way or another.

I'd like to know what you consider to be "rogue nids", if it's what I think it is those "rogue nids' where created by the Hive Mind to act independantly. The ability to act independently from the Hive Mind does not denote that something has a soul.

Theories are theories, unfortuanately we have no way to prove anything (Damn you GW!) They are the ones with the real answers. I just happen to think most living things have souls. However it is very possible they dont, I am open to either one.

I like to look at it as this...

They're soulless beings, but posses a mind.
However, they're under affect of their "Hive Mind" as they call it.

Yes, they can be corrupted, can be influenced by psychic powers, however, they are also fearless beings that only know violence.
Insect Warfare if I do say so myself, die for the Hive, live for the Hive.

Through their own psychic abilities that are spread throughout their kind, they carry out their work.
Because the Hive Mind gathers all the information of times passed through generations. It is passed on to future Tyranids, their history is bred into them.

If anything they act as a whole, they are drones, they are harbingers of plagues fueled by hunger and universal domination.

They are the Swarm.
They are the Hive Mind.
They are Legion.

To be honest, looking at it that way. That must mean even the simplest Tyranid organisms have very complex minds.
Can you imagine having that much experience and memories in your mind? Especially with how many of them are killed and how many battles the Tyranid have seen as a whole!

Gus_Papas wrote:As I understand it, Tyranids are soulless. If you look at the relationship Tyranids have with Necrons, you understand this: Necrons avoid Tyranids because they have no souls to harvest, and Tyranids avoid Necrons because they (Necrons) have no biomass.

Necrons don't use souls.

Seriously? So what you think the C'tan litterally eat everyone harvested by the Necrons? The C'tan eat souls which is why the Necrons harvest them. So yes the Necrons do use souls.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Seriously? So what you think the C'tan litterally eat everyone harvested by the Necrons? The C'tan eat souls which is why the Necrons harvest them. So yes the Necrons do use souls.

Actually the C'tan eat the "life force" of living creatures. This "life force" is essentially the energy bonds between atoms. They used to get it all from the stars they fed upon as diffuse energy beings millions of kilometers across, but upon being forced into a tony, concentrated form they noticed that dense, exciting patterns of energy (namely, matter as we know it) were far more interesting to consume. The "soul" in WH40k is a Warp-phenomenon. The C'tan have nothing to do with the Warp - they are clouds of living energy.

Indeed, the Necron Codex contains a small snippet of fluff on how Daemons crowd around the arcane machineries on Mars which humans are fed into to feed the C'tan slumbering there because the machines/C'tan only consume the energy - the Warp-based souls are cast adrift in the Warp and so the Daemons are enjoying a free-for-all buffet.

This important distinction is mostly ignored/mis-understood by authors, especially in the DoW games. make no mistake though, the C'tan are not interested in your "soul".

xXSir MontyXx wrote:To be honest, looking at it that way. That must mean even the simplest Tyranid organisms have very complex minds.
Can you imagine having that much experience and memories in your mind? Especially with how many of them are killed and how many battles the Tyranid have seen as a whole!

I think it would be specific memories pertaining to the particular species of tyranid. So gormagaunts with gormagaunt memories, etc.

And I don't think it would be every single memory and experience, most likely a condensed version containing what the Hive mind deams "important"

Memories are probably kept by hive ships, which have larger brains than any tyranid organism, making them a hub for information. This information can be given to synapse creatures in certain situations.

Synapse creatures have as much of a soul as any other sentient creature but they keep getting ressurected like Cylons.

Non-synapse creatures have about as much soul as any other animal.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Synapse creatures have as much of a soul as any other sentient creature but they keep getting ressurected like Cylons.

Non-synapse creatures have about as much soul as any other animal.

Only if you belive nids are independent entities, and not a single entity called they Hivemind.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Seriously? So what you think the C'tan litterally eat everyone harvested by the Necrons? The C'tan eat souls which is why the Necrons harvest them. So yes the Necrons do use souls.

No they don't only use souls,they are fed by sentinent or non-sentinent lifeforce energies released by deaths,not bysouls.
That is generally correct. The Dragon does not eat souls - to the point that there are demons lurking around his location in the warp, ready to snaffle the souls of those he eats. Presumably the C'tan do not gain any sustanance (or rather, pleasure, they still eat Stars, which one must assume make up their actual diet - it would be more correct to think of eating the life force of humans as smoking or other drug intake than eating sweets) from warp-souls. However...

It is also worth noting that the Nightbringer has the ability to either consume or destroy warp-souls. This is referenced vaguely in Nightbringer as him consuming 'soul morsels' and more specifically in the White Dwarf piece about his battle with Khaine, where it is mentioned that those who fought him 'lost everything, even their souls' - it would seem likely that the Nightbringer deliberately destroys warp-souls (beyond spite, there's a practical reason for this, you don't want to let them come back to fight you again). He certainly has considerable power over warp souls, somehow being able to disbarr the entire Eldar species from reincarnation, forever.

Certainly the Nightbringer can destroy a 'soul' if he wants to (which he always does). I'd be unsurprised if the other C'tan could do so too, but they're probably more lenient in that regard - not obsessed with death imagery, simply with having a good time - by that point they've had their fun with you, and that's all that matters