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Actualyl there is a Grey Knight Redeemer model:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Daemonhunters_/GREY-KNIGHTS-LAND-RAIDER-REDEEMER-COMPLETE-KIT.html

Kudos for pointing that out. I supposed the even more apparent lack of rules and models for any CSM Land Raiders makes GW/FW look a even worse

I always imagined a chaos land raider having a big daemon mouth on the front. time for Nom noms! Would probably work much like a deff rolla... but more noms

If Chaos were to get an LR variation, I’d like to see something similar to the Redeemer/Crusader with less punch, more transport capacity over something like the Ares/Achilles (which has more punch less transport)

I dont see any reason why Chaos cant have the Crusader TBH. it's not like they dont have TL Bolters. Admttedly they dont have Multi Meltas but i think that is an option on the SM one?

So a Crusader with the normal TL bolter sponson, maybe a hull mounted Reaper AC instead of the Assault cannon.

I have one of the old(ish) Crusader with the metal sponsons that i have slightly converted by putting the FW iron Warrior doors on it. I use it in Apoc to transport my Termie Lord and 'Zerkers.

Praxiss wrote:I dont see any reason why Chaos cant have the Crusader TBH.

Because the Crusader was invented after the Chaos/Loyalist split, and giving it to the heretics puts you one step further away from being a unique army.

Granted. Ok then, something similar then. Like i said, we have TL Bolters all through the army so you'd think some Chaos techmarine/Warsmith woudl look at a Crusader and say "i can do that"

if we're looking at unique weapons to mount on it then the only weapons Chaos has that Marines dont are the Autocannons and Havoc Launchers.

Praxiss wrote:Granted. Ok then, something similar then. Like i said, we have TL Bolters all through the army so you'd think some Chaos techmarine/Warsmith woudl look at a Crusader and say "i can do that"

if we're looking at unique weapons to mount on it then the only weapons Chaos has that Marines dont are the Autocannons and Havoc Launchers.

They don't need to mount unique Chaos-only weapons (although all four of my suggestions do), but they do need to be more than straight copies of new loyalist designs.

Yeah.

I'm stuck for original ideas. Anyone care to throw in an idea? Note: We're not looking for a super-heavy. Just a chaos themed Land Raider varient that coudl be used in a normal game of 40k without breaking the game or the bank points wise.

As a simple chaos land raider variant, I think an undivided one should be bristled with reaper autocannons... each sponson with 2 Reaper Autocannons... the turret being left as a twin linked heavy bolter would be fine.

I think its a bit much to make god specific landraiders, but another undivided that is simple a daemon possessed version, a daemon engine would be cool. Make it into a hermit crab sort of thing, using the landraider as a shell with big defiler sized, yet more organic claws pulling it forward.

Might have to look into making Reaper sponsons. i wonder if having 2 Tl Reapers per sponson woudl be too much?

That would give the tank a total of 8 S7 AP4 shots with re-rolls. Comparable to the Crusader 12 shots at rapid fire range, except that the Reaper has amuch greater range.

What do you guys think?

In modelling terms the easiest way to go woudl probably be to doubel up on the reapers from the Defiler on each side and fit those onto standard sponson mounts.


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Bitz and Kitz sell them:

http://www.bitsandkits.co.uk/chaos-defiler-twin-auto-cannons-p-5374.html

Personally I think the brass Scorpion could be merged into the Chaos armies, sort of as a "big brother" to the Defiler.

For pure undivided chaos landraider variants, perhaps something akin to the WHFB Chaos Warshrine? A roving chapel on wheels that help CSM hold the line and automatically rallies them, as well as help summon Daemons better. Or perhaps a Land Raider variant that helps boost Sorceror abilities (or be the sorceror itself, like the Librarian dreadnought. Given how they're in direct contact with the warp, it should be of no surprise that their tanks start casting spells).

I still think the Sonic Raider would be a good variant, since Noise Marines are currently the only Cult Troopers with specialized weaponry.

OR.....Another (maybe cheaper option) coudl be to get a coudl of Autocannon Dread arms from Forgeworld, that way they would also include integral ammo drums. But more tweaking and drillign woudl be required to make them work in a sponson mount.


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I do liek the idea of a sonic LR, but i think there should be a committment to then have at least 1 unit of actual noisem arines in the army.

I wish the Brass Scorpion could be played in normal 40k. A friedn told me about the Greater Brass Scorpion in one of the Vraks books. It has the same weaposn but better armour and 1 more structure point apparently.

Praxiss wrote:Might have to look into making Reaper sponsons. i wonder if having 2 Tl Reapers per sponson woudl be too much?

That would give the tank a total of 8 S7 AP4 shots with re-rolls. Comparable to the Crusader 12 shots at rapid fire range, except that the Reaper has amuch greater range.

What do you guys think?

No, 8 S7 shots to 36" is not comparable to 12 S4 shots to 12".

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:For pure undivided chaos landraider variants, perhaps something akin to the WHFB Chaos Warshrine? A roving chapel on wheels that help CSM hold the line and automatically rallies them, as well as help summon Daemons better.

Forget the chapel on wheels (if anyone's going to get one of those, it will be the Ecclesiarchy or only the Word Bearers), but a Chaos Land Raider with a weapon that weakens the barrier between the material universe and the Warp would fit. It could work like a D-Cannon and treat the target location as an Icon for summoning in your next turn.

Legion specific Raiders would be pretty awesome. For a Daemonically possessed Raider, maybe it can phase in and out of existance and get a Invul Save (so it would have this save in close combat too). However this will probably jack up the points like there's no tomorrow. Or it could just carry daemons instead of CSM into battle, without needing to summon them.

Chaos Land Raider with a weapon that weakens the barrier between the material universe and the Warp would fit. It could work like a D-Cannon and treat the target location as an Icon for summoning in your next turn.

This would be a perfect fit, except CSM:4.0 =garbage deamons

Or it could just carry daemons instead of CSM into battle, without needing to summon them.

Again, why would anybody want to?

What I'd really like to see is a true Deamonic Possesion represented, something that truly captures the aggression of a chaotic warmachine's spirit. An invuln save works, so do re-rolls on tank-shock attempts. TL Autocannons would be easy for chaos, how about heavy flamers, or a cannon that shoots tl poison shots? Some type of grenade launcher that shoots melta bombs... When I think of chaos I don't think finnesse. I think grimy, dirty, and destructive.

AlexHolker wrote:

Praxiss wrote:Might have to look into making Reaper sponsons. i wonder if having 2 Tl Reapers per sponson woudl be too much?

That would give the tank a total of 8 S7 AP4 shots with re-rolls. Comparable to the Crusader 12 shots at rapid fire range, except that the Reaper has amuch greater range.

What do you guys think?

No, 8 S7 shots to 36" is not comparable to 12 S4 shots to 12".

You're assuming the variant would be the same cost, which it might not be.

I realize its not major differences, but unlike the crusader it might still have the standard troop capacity and it definitely wouldn't have twin-linked assault cannons.

Maybe a twin linked heavy flamer with the 2 reapers in each sponson. It maybe more appropriate to compare this to the standard twin lascannon version.

The alternative would be the sponson being twin-linked Reaper autocannons... re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound.



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MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Personally I think the brass Scorpion could be merged into the Chaos armies, sort of as a "big brother" to the Defiler.
...
I still think the Sonic Raider would be a good variant, since Noise Marines are currently the only Cult Troopers with specialized weaponry.

I think the Brass scorpions a bit too big for standard 40k, the Defiler already dwarfs most units as it is.

Sonic raider would be ok if GW were doing a book focusing on each cult, but it wouldn't be right in a list focused on Undivided. If I were doing cult Land Raiders I'd break it down like this:

Slannesh: Sonic Weapons; enemy must past LD test to assault.
Tzeentch: Daemonic hull... roll X and ignore a glance, or downgrade a penetrating to glancing.
Nurgle: Ignore Shaken and Stunned; Any unit assaulting this, takes d3 StrX hits, for each succesful wound, the Raider may ignore one successful hit made by that assaulting unit.
Khorne: Twin Heavy Bolter sponsons, upgradable to twin heavy flamers; Transport 15; A unit assaulting out of this may ignore the effect of defensive grenades.

I think a specific Chaos Land Raider should be a plasma wagon. In the old chaos codexes their plasma cannons worked differently than modern marines. (earlier steps in development) Loyalist plasma cannons were single shot blast markers while chaos cannons got three shots with small blasts
Go twin linked plasma cannons MK1 in each sponson and Reapers in the hull mount. To keep this from being just a god-awful MEQ killing machine plasma cannons getting hot will destroy that weapon. Maybe the user can choose to fire fewer shots?

I think any variant with dual reapers per sponson or a twin linked plasmacannon per sponson would be OP IMO. Either that or it would end up like the Achilles with an abysmal transport capacity. I also think the idea of plasma cannon’s exploding would just create an unbalanced ruleset (just like Mephiston).

A balanced autocannon based LR IMO would probably have a single Reaper Autocannon in each sponson, a hull mounted reaper autocannon and a transport capacity of 12.

In regards to the plasma LR idea, I’d personally like to see something like twin linked plasma gun turrets, hull mounted plasmacannon and a transport capacity of 16.

I think all that ignores cost. Unit cost is what balances it out. Like what if the quad reaper LR were 325pts? Or maybe just 300pts? That's 50pts over the standard. I'm not saying this is the only thing, but that it gets you half way there in balancing such a unit.

The problem with a single autocannon per sponson is that it makes no sense from a size perspective. The standard Land Raider carries 12 because the lascannons require generators. Reaper Autocannons don't. Next a single Reaper autocannon I don't think balances out with twin-linked lascannons. The twin lascannons have range and strength advantages... both are twin linked... is a second shot worth strength reduction and a shorter range?

Maybe something in between two reaper autocannons and a single reaper... like a variant that has 3 shots instead of a full 4... combined with maybe a reduction in the hull weapon from being twin-linked heavy bolters to twin-linked (non-heavy) flamers... or a havoc launcher.

As another alternative I've always wanted to see a Land Raider variant that maxes out transport capacity sacrificing sponsons for more space... a land raider with only a hull mounted twin Reapers and no sponsons...transport 18?


I think the plasma variant is wishful thinking. While older is better is sometimes the case with 40k tech, I don't think it makes sense.

aka_mythos wrote: I think the Brass scorpions a bit too big for standard 40k, the Defiler already dwarfs most units as it is.

Sonic raider would be ok if GW were doing a book focusing on each cult, but it wouldn't be right in a list focused on Undivided. If I were doing cult Land Raiders I'd break it down like this:

Slannesh: Sonic Weapons; enemy must past LD test to assault.
Tzeentch: Daemonic hull... roll X and ignore a glance, or downgrade a penetrating to glancing.
Nurgle: Ignore Shaken and Stunned; Any unit assaulting this, takes d3 StrX hits, for each succesful wound, the Raider may ignore one successful hit made by that assaulting unit.
Khorne: Twin Heavy Bolter sponsons, upgradable to twin heavy flamers; Transport 15; A unit assaulting out of this may ignore the effect of defensive grenades.

It was done better with vehicle dedication in the old book, especially where you could swap out certain weapons for sonic weapons in the Slaanesh Book. If Sonic Raiders are included in an undivided army, it probably can only be taken by a Slaaneshi squad and not as a lone vehicle. However only a Slaanesh Sonic Raider, Iron Warriors Siege Raider, and Daemon Summoning Raider seems plausable to me as true variants (and not just a Raider rehash with Chaos Weapons), since those would be fluffy and have a reason for their existance. A Plague Raider might also be good, one that has a massive and more potent Nurgle's Rot ability, but no actual weapons and is just designed to give whoever's nearby a cover save while poisoning the enemy's troops.

aka_mythos wrote:

Maybe something in between two reaper autocannons and a single reaper... like a variant that has 3 shots instead of a full 4... combined with maybe a reduction in the hull weapon from being twin-linked heavy bolters to twin-linked (non-heavy) flamers... or a havoc launcher.

I actually prefer the Havoc launcher to the Heavy Bolter. It's got the same S and AP, same range (or maybe even longer, can't remember now) and it's a blast with a re-roll to wound. It woudl look pretty cool as a hull mounted weapon though in place of the normal Heavy Bolter.

With regards to the Reaper. Don't forget it is a step up from the normal AC in that it is TL already. Also, bear i mind that, f it did have 2 Reapers in each sponson (for a total of 8 shots all together), it woudl only be able to fire 1 on the move as we don't have anything akin to PotMS to let us fire more than one S4< weapon on the move. That is what makes the crusader so nasty, its sponson weaposn are classed as defensive so it can let rip even after moving.

Praxiss wrote:I actually prefer the Havoc launcher to the Heavy Bolter. It's got the same S and AP, same range (or maybe even longer, can't remember now) and it's a blast with a re-roll to wound. It woudl look pretty cool as a hull mounted weapon though in place of the normal Heavy Bolter.

I'd rather see it used as a sponson weapon. The front hull mount is inappropriate for a missile launcher, since it would direct the backblast directly into the hull of the tank instead of into open air. Putting it on the sponson, on the other hand, means you could go for an Apache rocket pod look.

Oh yeah. 2 Havocs in each Sponson, stacked on top of each other. Gives you a toal of 4 small S5 blasts (assumign you dont move). THAT would look cool. What about the Hull Mount? Reaper woudl mean another Heavy weapon, or another TL Bolter to fire on the move?







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How about this?


Land Raider Suppressor

AV F/S/R 14

BS 4

Equipment:

Pintle Mounted TL Bolter

2 Sponson each housing 2 Havoc Launchers

2 Hull mounted Flamers (2 flamers or 1 TL Flamer?)

Transport Capacity: 12

May Replace Havoc Sponsons with Twin Reaper Autocannon Sponsons (each containing 2 Reapers) for 20 points



Points: 250




I can't remember how template weapons work on a tank. Would the templates come from the barrel of the flamers or the hull of the tank? if it's the former then they would have little to no actual effective range.

AlexHolker wrote:

Praxiss wrote:I actually prefer the Havoc launcher to the Heavy Bolter. It's got the same S and AP, same range (or maybe even longer, can't remember now) and it's a blast with a re-roll to wound. It woudl look pretty cool as a hull mounted weapon though in place of the normal Heavy Bolter.

I'd rather see it used as a sponson weapon. The front hull mount is inappropriate for a missile launcher, since it would direct the backblast directly into the hull of the tank instead of into open air. Putting it on the sponson, on the other hand, means you could go for an Apache rocket pod look.

Just going to point this out... but backblast, what is that going to do to a landraider? - Nothing.



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Praxiss wrote:

I actually prefer the Havoc launcher to the Heavy Bolter. It's got the same S and AP, same range (or maybe even longer, can't remember now) and it's a blast with a re-roll to wound. It woudl look pretty cool as a hull mounted weapon though in place of the normal Heavy Bolter.

With regards to the Reaper. Don't forget it is a step up from the normal AC in that it is TL already. Also, bear i mind that, f it did have 2 Reapers in each sponson (for a total of 8 shots all together), it woudl only be able to fire 1 on the move as we don't have anything akin to PotMS to let us fire more than one S4< weapon on the move. That is what makes the crusader so nasty, its sponson weaposn are classed as defensive so it can let rip even after moving.

The havoc would be a small step down in power on a landraider since it would be replacing the twin linked heavy bolter. The idea being to tweek down the hull weapon a little to help make up for the Reaper Autocannons over effectiveness.

I keep saying two Reaper Autocannons on each sponson, as short hand, but what I mean is something like the Leman Russ Exterminator's autocannons, which is basically an autocannon with 4 shots; just that the Landraider's reaper autocannon-ish weapons would have the Reapers strength, range, and twin-linkedness with some yet to be determined number of shots (3 or 4 shots). This weapon would likely have some new name.

While the crusader is great, there is no reason the variant should be comparable to that instead of the standard raider.


I had another idea for a Chaos Landraider... "Obliterator" pattern... where the sponsons have a number of different morphable weapons that can be selected each turn.

Chaos doesnt have much in the way of unique weapons except for Sonic weapons and the Reaper, which may partially be the reason why there are no Chaos Raider variants.

If you're goign to give it 4 shots you might as well mount 2 Reapers in each Sponson. Giving you 4 shots with re-rolls on each side.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Chaos doesnt have much in the way of unique weapons except for Sonic weapons and the Reaper, which may partially be the reason why there are no Chaos Raider variants.

There are two reasons. One is the fluffy... that chaos rely less on conventional weapons do to their access to chaos and daemons. The other is because GW hasn't cared as much about chaos. Despite being a fully standalone army, GW only gives them about as much attention as they give to variant non-codex chapters. I think they're getting better, but really need more to be distinctive without being cluttered.

The only "chaos" undivided range weapons: Havoc Launchers and Reaper Autocannons. So a Landraider variant that is completely chaos unique should be some combination of those or rely on some tinge of daemonic abilities or weapons.

So there are really only two immediately appealing solutions... hull havoc and sponson reaper autocannons or hull reaper autocannons and sponson havocs (like Praxis recommends). I think Praxis' solution is the better one for making a "Chaos Crusader." Some adjusted version of the first makes it more of a Chaos standard Raider variant. Given that Chaos already has a standard raider, Praxis' "Chaos Crusader" is the better choice.

This is why Cult-specific Land Raiders or Legion specific land raiders are much more easier to come up with than generalized Undivided Raiders. Iron Warriors can concievably upgrade their Raiders with captured ordinance and heavy weapons at the expense of transport capacity, while Sonic Raiders are very fluffy. Plague Raiders (either shooting template weapons or just use Nurgle's Rot while it drives) are also possible while Word bearers will likely turn them into roving chapels. I also wouldnt put it past the Thousand Sons to turn their raiders into psychic amplifiers, and Alpha Legion might have cloaking raiders.

I think that we're now looking at two different issues. The undivided landraider is the most we can hope for from GW, the Cult and Legion Land Raiders are maybe more of a FW thing. Undivided and Cult raiders make sense because they allow for broad use, which is generally necessary for GW or FW to have as a successful kit. Legion specific variants don't allow that. I also see the short coming of trying to come up with so many variants that aren't based on weapons is that there is very little ability to physically represent it to distinguish variants and make kits out of them. Some of the Legion specific Land Raiders would only be rules with no distinguishing modeling... that not every legion deserves a unique Land Raider variant. The Undivided and Cults would cover most every legion... beyond that maybe one or two of the other legions actually deserve a dedicated variant... I don't think a Night Lords or Alpha Legion makes much sense no matter how neat an idea you might have for them.