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hoodlums causing a fracas or not I don't understand how you can expect people to pay so much for education.

Albatross wrote:I was so angry about the protests that I left the NUS. Membership should be an 'opt-in' for this very reason. Membership of a union should not be mandatory

It never was when I was at University. I remember signing up for the nus on my first day there. When did that change?

I don't know much about your university's entrance qualifications. Is over-crowding becoming a burden at your universities? Are they having to expand with more classrooms, teachers and other resources and that's adding to the problem? When I was in school 12 years ago, there were a handful of kids that certainly didn't belong in the engineering department or taking calculus...ever. The Chemical Engineering freshman class of about 150 was down to 35 when I graduated. The Freshman and Sophomore classes were always packed, but things eventually "thinned out", so to speak.

I'm alarmed with SilverMK2's post that the fees went from 1200 to 3000 to potentially 7000 in about 7 years. That's a huge mark up in such a short amount of time. 1200 in tuition a year is dead cheap. I can empathize your frustration when you've been used to that forever and then suddenly the costs skyrocket. (I don't support the dickheads causing problems throughout London, though. NO call for that.)

Also, what are your student loans like? In the states, many student loans are subsidized, which keeps the interest rates lower than your typical credit card or other interest rates.

whatwhat wrote:It never was when I was at University. I remember signing up for the nus on my first day there. When did that change?

I think it differs from university to university. Mine was done for me on registration at the university (my university card was my NUS card). My wife on the other hand had to sign up and pay for membership at her university.

I'm sure your not a fan of Aaron Porter then. That overconfident gakker is nothing if not the personification of entitlement. He always seems on the border of a hissy fit when he's talking. Can't stand the chap!

kronk wrote:Also, what are your student loans like? In the states, many student loans are subsidized, which keeps the interest rates lower than your typical credit card or other interest rates.

The same. They decide how much loan your allowed based on savings and income. Plus if you were from a working class family like I was you get grants depending on your families income. I don't know how that will be effected.

SilverMK2 wrote:

whatwhat wrote:It never was when I was at University. I remember signing up for the nus on my first day there. When did that change?

I think it differs from university to university. Mine was done for me on registration at the university (my university card was my NUS card). My wife on the other hand had to sign up and pay for membership at her university.

Yeh you're probably right. I had two seperate cards. The union membership was a five quid one off fee if I remember corectly. I soon made it back of club entry though.

whatwhat wrote:hoodlums causing a fracas or not I don't understand how you can expect people to pay so much for education.

Albatross wrote:I was so angry about the protests that I left the NUS. Membership should be an 'opt-in' for this very reason. Membership of a union should not be mandatory

It never was when I was at University. I remember signing up for the nus on my first day there. When did that change?

Where I am you're automatically a member upon enrollment. You have to sign up (and pay) for your NUS extra card, but you're still a member without it. I actually assumed it was this way everywhere? Perhaps it is - many students I spoke to about this issue (I'm a staff-student council rep) didn't even realise they were members and assumed that it was as you said, that you had to sign up for your card to become a member. There was considerable anger about that, actually. I've been encouraging people to leave the union in protest.

Albatross wrote:

whatwhat wrote:hoodlums causing a fracas or not I don't understand how you can expect people to pay so much for education.

Albatross wrote:I was so angry about the protests that I left the NUS. Membership should be an 'opt-in' for this very reason. Membership of a union should not be mandatory

It never was when I was at University. I remember signing up for the nus on my first day there. When did that change?

Where I am you're automatically a member upon enrollment. You have to sign up (and pay) for your NUS extra card, but you're still a member without it. I actually assumed it was this way everywhere? Perhaps it is - many students I spoke to about this issue (I'm a staff-student council rep) didn't even realise they were members and assumed that it was as you said, that you had to sign up for your card to become a member. There was considerable anger about that, actually. I've been encouraging people to leave the union in protest.

I highly doubt you joined up without signing something somwhere along the lines, probably in some small print somwhere.

I specifically remember singing up for the Students Union, certainly wasn't just the card and I got made a member automatically. So yeh it must be different per university.

whatwhat wrote:

Albatross wrote:

whatwhat wrote:hoodlums causing a fracas or not I don't understand how you can expect people to pay so much for education.

Albatross wrote:I was so angry about the protests that I left the NUS. Membership should be an 'opt-in' for this very reason. Membership of a union should not be mandatory

It never was when I was at University. I remember signing up for the nus on my first day there. When did that change?

Where I am you're automatically a member upon enrollment. You have to sign up (and pay) for your NUS extra card, but you're still a member without it. I actually assumed it was this way everywhere? Perhaps it is - many students I spoke to about this issue (I'm a staff-student council rep) didn't even realise they were members and assumed that it was as you said, that you had to sign up for your card to become a member. There was considerable anger about that, actually. I've been encouraging people to leave the union in protest.

I highly doubt you joined up without signing something somwhere along the lines, probably in some small print somwhere.

It must have been buried deep in the smallest of small print, for so many students at my uni to be unaware that they have joined a union. I certainly never signed anything that explicitly stated that I had joined. Come to think of it, I'm sure I recall the Admin at my school telling students that they were automatically enrolled in the union, but that they would have to pay for their NUS Extra card.

IIRC it used to be automatic, but this was changed under the last Con. govt. .... might even have been under Thatcher even ? There was a big song and dance about it in the early 90s when I went to Uni. Marches, leaflet campaigns etc etc etc. I think a lot of places still kind of sign you up by default when you arrive, there used to be a box on..err... some form or other... you had to tick to NOT be joined.

I'd imagine this would indeed vary from place to place depending upon what has been decided upon at the respective Unis.

It's not like you've been consigned to death or anything. Student Unions are more of a Student Club. Just because some muppets are waging war in london doesn't mean they reflect the views of everyone in the nus.

No people are more likely to tag that on you on the basis of you being a student alone, nus or not.

Ah, here we are:

USSU wrote:...AGM stands for Annual General Meeting. It’s a meeting held by the Students’ Union which is open to all students. Every one of you is automatically a member of the Students’ Union, so you’re all entitled to attend.

http://www.salfordstudents.com/news/8164/news_yours__we_want_your_feedback_11022008/index.php?page=article&news_id=100705

Thought so.

Although the Conservative government under John Major attempted to severely reduce the influence of students' unions in Britain, the NUS and individual students' unions managed to successfully lobby against the moves to restrict their political activities. The then Education Secretary, John Patten aimed to end the 'closed shop' and ensure students would have to join their union (opt-in) rather than automatically becoming a member. As many unions receive funding based upon membership levels this threatened their ability to achieve their core business.

hmm , must not have got in then.

..god... it didn't seem that long ago.

whatwhat wrote:It's not like you've been consigned to death or anything. Student Unions are more of a Student Club. Just because some muppets are waging war in london doesn't mean they reflect the views of everyone in the nus.

No people are more likely to tag that on you on the basis of you being a student alone, nus or not.

It's not about that - the NUS claims to represent the views of it's members. They do not represent my views.

I am also annoyed that they would inflate their membership numbers by making people automatic members, as it makes it appear that more people support their official position than actually do. There is a massive left-wing bias on my campus, and as a result there is no alternative form of representation for non-socialist leaning students. There is a Socialist Society, a Labour club... no Conservative Student club. I'm basically going it alone as an independent rep.

Albatross wrote:

whatwhat wrote:It's not like you've been consigned to death or anything. Student Unions are more of a Student Club. Just because some muppets are waging war in london doesn't mean they reflect the views of everyone in the nus.

No people are more likely to tag that on you on the basis of you being a student alone, nus or not.

It's not about that - the NUS claims to represent the views of it's members. They do not represent my views.

I am also annoyed that they would inflate their membership numbers by making people automatic members, as it makes it appear that more people support their official position than actually do. There is a massive left-wing bias on my campus, and as a result there is no alternative form of representation for non-socialist leaning students. There is a Socialist Society, a Labour club... no Conservative Student club. I'm basically going it alone as an independent rep.

It's a democratic body just like the government. Any argument of 'this isn't fairly represented' can easily be responded with: "set it up yourself" "run for a board position" etc. The 'Socialist Society' and 'Labour Club' in your union will be set up in much the same way.

Albatross wrote:
I am also annoyed that they would inflate their membership numbers by making people automatic members, as it makes it appear that more people support their official position than actually do. There is a massive left-wing bias on my campus,

That's the same for most Unis.

There is a Socialist Society, a Labour club... no Conservative Student club.

That isn't though.

..hmm.... do they still give out grants towards society start up costs ? Back in the day you only needed something like 12-20 people signing up and you were eligible for a grant. Draw up the society constitution and voila !

The initial meetings of the "Let's drink beer and talk about whales" and the "Sheep appreciation society" were lively affairs, if, alas, not exactly memorable. Bless subsidised bars.

whatwhat wrote:

Albatross wrote:

whatwhat wrote:It's not like you've been consigned to death or anything. Student Unions are more of a Student Club. Just because some muppets are waging war in london doesn't mean they reflect the views of everyone in the nus.

No people are more likely to tag that on you on the basis of you being a student alone, nus or not.

It's not about that - the NUS claims to represent the views of it's members. They do not represent my views.

I am also annoyed that they would inflate their membership numbers by making people automatic members, as it makes it appear that more people support their official position than actually do. There is a massive left-wing bias on my campus, and as a result there is no alternative form of representation for non-socialist leaning students. There is a Socialist Society, a Labour club... no Conservative Student club. I'm basically going it alone as an independent rep.

It's a democratic body just like the government.

...because mandatory membership is completely democratic?

Any argument of 'this isn't fairly represented' can easily be responded with: "set it up yourself" "run for a board position" etc.

Can't be bothered, and I don't need to be union-affiliated to be a rep so what's the point in setting up a rival organisation?

I was automatically signed up when I became a student. I've never spoken to a representative however. If some chap ever claimed to be representing me, I'd laugh in his face.

Albatross wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Albatross wrote:

whatwhat wrote:It's not like you've been consigned to death or anything. Student Unions are more of a Student Club. Just because some muppets are waging war in london doesn't mean they reflect the views of everyone in the nus.

No people are more likely to tag that on you on the basis of you being a student alone, nus or not.

It's not about that - the NUS claims to represent the views of it's members. They do not represent my views.

I am also annoyed that they would inflate their membership numbers by making people automatic members, as it makes it appear that more people support their official position than actually do. There is a massive left-wing bias on my campus, and as a result there is no alternative form of representation for non-socialist leaning students. There is a Socialist Society, a Labour club... no Conservative Student club. I'm basically going it alone as an independent rep.

It's a democratic body just like the government.

...because mandatory membership is completely democratic?

If you've managed to opt out it's not mandotary membership is it, even if they did automatically put you in for it. The union board in most student unions is democratically elected, I've never heard of any that are not.

+ I'm a mandotary citizen of the United Kingdom simply by being born here. Does that mean I don't live in a democracy?

Albatross wrote:

Any argument of 'this isn't fairly represented' can easily be responded with: "set it up yourself" "run for a board position" etc.

Can't be bothered,

Then you can't really complain that there is no society for you.

whatwhat wrote:

Albatross wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Albatross wrote:

whatwhat wrote:It's not like you've been consigned to death or anything. Student Unions are more of a Student Club. Just because some muppets are waging war in london doesn't mean they reflect the views of everyone in the nus.

No people are more likely to tag that on you on the basis of you being a student alone, nus or not.

It's not about that - the NUS claims to represent the views of it's members. They do not represent my views.

I am also annoyed that they would inflate their membership numbers by making people automatic members, as it makes it appear that more people support their official position than actually do. There is a massive left-wing bias on my campus, and as a result there is no alternative form of representation for non-socialist leaning students. There is a Socialist Society, a Labour club... no Conservative Student club. I'm basically going it alone as an independent rep.

It's a democratic body just like the government.

...because mandatory membership is completely democratic?

If you've managed to opt out it's not mandotary membership is it, even if they did automatically put you in for it. The union board in most student unions is democratically elected, I've never heard of any that are not.

Joining is mandatory. Leaving is difficult. Amounts to the same thing, in my eyes.

Albatross wrote:

Any argument of 'this isn't fairly represented' can easily be responded with: "set it up yourself" "run for a board position" etc.

Can't be bothered,

Then you can't really complain that there is no society for you.

Why are you so keen to start an argument with me? I already explained that the union didn't represent my views, so I left. I was just raising the point that there's no alternative to being independent in this case. Especially when you consider that you have to be in the union to set up a society.

Albatross wrote:Why are you so keen to start an argument with me?

Why do you seem to think that when someone raises a point that contrasts or disputes your own they are starting an argument with you?

whatwhat wrote:

Albatross wrote:Why are you so keen to start an argument with me?

Why do you seem to think that when someone raises a point that contrasts or disputes your own they are starting an argument with you?

My point. It is eloquently proven.

Albatross wrote:

whatwhat wrote:It's not like you've been consigned to death or anything. Student Unions are more of a Student Club. Just because some muppets are waging war in london doesn't mean they reflect the views of everyone in the nus.

No people are more likely to tag that on you on the basis of you being a student alone, nus or not.

It's not about that - the NUS claims to represent the views of it's members. They do not represent my views.

I am also annoyed that they would inflate their membership numbers by making people automatic members, as it makes it appear that more people support their official position than actually do. There is a massive left-wing bias on my campus, and as a result there is no alternative form of representation for non-socialist leaning students. There is a Socialist Society, a Labour club... no Conservative Student club. I'm basically going it alone as an independent rep.

30 years ago there was a massive right wing bias on my campus. What comes around goes around.

I was a lot more right wing in those days.

Anyway, student politics always has been a bit stupid.

I don't think it answers to say that having a degree is much more beneficial to the individual student than to society as a whole, and therefore they should pay for it. So is all of education, if you look at it from one angle.

What if no-one in the UK had a degree? What if the few people who could afford to pay for a degree fethed off to France or America and stayed there? We would basically be Albania or something. That is why we have so many foreign nurses in the NHS. Our own nurses have buggered off to Australia and the US, where they get paid a lot more, and we have to import nurses from the Philipines and Uganda to make up the difference.

My point is that the UK needs to harness the best selection of national talent and get them educated and working in high value industries and we can't do that with the conditions we have.

What am I paying so much tax for?

Welfare.

Cut welfare and spend the money on education.

Kilkrazy wrote:Cut welfare and spend the money on education.

No, no. . that could never work. It makes too much sense.

Kilkrazy wrote:Cut welfare and spend the money on education.

Cut both and sell tickets to the ensuing fights in and around soup kitchens and libraries. Use money to buy a small island. Begin anew.

Kilkrazy wrote:Cut welfare and spend the money on education.

KK for PM!

All hail our new overlord!

Kilkrazy wrote:Cut welfare and spend the money on education.

Cut it by more than we already are? If so, deal.

Albatross wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Cut welfare and spend the money on education.

Cut it by more than we already are? If so, deal.

It turns out we are cutting it by less that we already are.

A couple of days ago it was announced that the housing benefit cap will not be introduced for current claimants until April 2012.

The mood in the country is supportive of these housing benefit cuts. The government should take the tide at its flood, IMO.

In theory at least, wouldn't cutting welfare to increase funding for education be perfectly feasible since more education equates to more people with higher paying jobs, reducing the percentage of the population reliant upon welfare?

Or does that just reveal my terrible understanding of economics?