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I still think this thread is concentrating on what Space Wolves do well, but not looking at it's downsides.

Namely, the cost of their assault units in comparison with other armies.

I agree. The Space Marines codex has now been grossly invalidated by these new and far superior marine codexes, hence the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality.

There are so many things that the Codex Marine army does well, in the right hands they can be pretty devastating, and I am not even talking about the Vulkan list.

And the thing that makes me mad is that,as i see it, 40K is`nt about fielding 30 TH/SS Terminators,or 4 seer councils, it`s about taking 1500 points and making the best regiment/chapter/craft world/whatever and taking the bad-news-bears (if i can make that analogy) and banging-heads with another player of the same thing.With space wolves,it`s physically impossible to do this BECAUSE of what OP mentioned,SW on Others is essentially like fighting a monolith with a .22 pistol.(if i can relate this)When the crossbow was introduced, It turned the lolly peasant into a master archer,other men before that had to take 30 years training to be THAT skilled with a longbow,a short bow,or a short sword,it could kill a master-knight in a flash,the pope tried to ban it,calling it genocide,unfair that a poor man could kill a rich noble on horseback with such little training (the SW are the crossbow,other players are the victim,and the pope is the internet community,for the stupid people out there.)

I don't blame SW players for taking the best options available to them. And, I don't blame C:SM, DA, BT, etc players from playing it counts-as SW. It's really hard to look at a codex and see that you can take a whole bunch of upgrades to your list and not have to really loose anything.

I blame GW for letting codex creep get this bad.

Perhaps its time for every TO to take matters into their own hands and re-cost C:SW.

Mahu wrote:I still think this thread is concentrating on what Space Wolves do well, but not looking at it's downsides.

Namely, the cost of their assault units in comparison with other armies.

Um, how so? You mean like Wolf Guard? They are extremely cost efficient with some of the cheapest access to close combat gear amongst MEQ armies in the game and one of the most diverse arrays of options of any unit out there. 18pts a piece for 2A base with Counterattack, Ld9, and a buttload of reduced price close combat weapons? Their Terminators have the largest array of options available to them of any terminator unit, and are the cheapest in the game except for Chaos terminators, but get ATSKNF and Counterattack and more weapons options for it. The only part of their options that isn't at least on par with others is the TH/SS combo, which is drastically *undercosted* in other armies. (seriously, you could make them 50pts each and they'd still be taken just as often, people would cut other units before they'd stop taking them)


Likewise, TWC's may be expensive, but are hugely powerful units and can play wound allocation gimmicks with the best of them, and are wholly worth their cost.

The bloodclaws and the like aren't exactly expensive either, no more than their counterparts in other books, though they swap WS4 (bs4 means little as they really don't have meaningful shooting) for Headstrong, Berzerk Charge and Counterattack.

There are quite a few units in the book that doesnt seem to be taken alot, or at all. I've never seen anyone take any of the Bloodclaw variants (Swiftclaw bikers, Sky Claw Jump packs) and GW might have thought that nerfing some units might justify the perks of the others, but didnt realise the players could simply choose not to take these options.

Redbeard wrote:I'm not one of these super-old-time players who can cite figures dating back to Rogue Trader. But in the five or six years that I've been playing, I don't recall seeing such uniformity in what is being run. When I started playing, you had traits and doctrines for marines and guard, and each chaos legion had its own flavour. The eldar had five different craftworld lists available to them, and even orks had three variants (Codex, Speed Freaks, and Feral). GWs design process has consistently removed options over the last few years, with the result that every codex can be approached in a 'take the strongest stuff' method, and Space Wolves simply have the strongest stuff.

The net effect, for me at least, is an increasing level of boredom with the game. Even in my casual games, I'm seeing a lot of the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality. I wonder if this is what the Fantasy players were going through at the end of 7th ed, where you either played Daemons, or Vampires, or got screwed.

I agree on all of this completely. Taking it even further on your last point the game is becoming more narrow minded than I've ever seen it. MOST armies I see are run with the same list every game, not just SW. And I play at a fairly large flgs. SW, BA, Eldar, Chaos, Daemons, Tau, IG, the list goes on, a standard competative build hits and everyone playes those lists over and over again. Gunline for SW, DoA/Razorspam for BA, Tankspam eldar, Dual lash chaos, all khorne daemons+fateweaver, Gunline tau, leafblower IG, dah de dah de dah... you get it. People are forced into these places to compete with the other fools who started running these lists and didnt stop after the tourney. Also the codexes utter lack of individuality in characters and units like they all used to have have forced players into these cookie cutter builds. Dark days ahead im thinking till 6th edition...

Nurglitch wrote:I disagree. If Space Wolves seem over-whelming, it's because people haven't put their backs into beating them yet.

In particular I think that the Space Wolves have weaknesses that people used to playing Space Marines are not inclined to exploit.

Take Counter-Attack, for example. The Space Wolves have to pass a Leadership Test first. Actually, the Space Wolves need to be charged first. I've noticed that Space Marines tend to be more effective if they stay out of combat (at least those they can't win easily over a game turn) and so you want to charge them to neuter their shooting. With Space Wolves you want to shoot them.

So your suggesting get assaulted? then they get the extra attack anyway...

Nurglitch wrote:Long Fangs, well, I've talked enough about the weaknesses of Long Fangs. Needless to say I'm still surprised that they're considered a threat when so much can drop in and destroy six Space Marines so easily.

Idk anything that can drop in and destroy 6 missile totting SM easily... and If you do the 2 other squads are going to kill it for doing so.

Nurglitch wrote:Razorbacks are also a source of consternation for me, not because they're some terrible scourge, but because people are afraid of lots of AV11 vehicles. Heavy Bolters can take them down! Maybe it's just because I play Chaos Space Marines who can take Autocannons out the yin-yang region, but I just don't see them as a threat commensurate with their points value.

True AV11 isnt that impressive but when they come in bulk and carry heavy weapons it is.

Nurglitch wrote:Likewise Rune Priests are just as useless as Space Marine Librarians in close combat, and have less useful psychic powers. While they have some nice shooting attacks, you can get similar firepower for cheaper elsewhere in the list, and if you take them, then you can't take the other, less easily killed characters. Maxing out on HQ is nice, but even armies where you can only take two, it's often wiser to just take one and devote the points to more of the units that actually do work.

Rune priests are the best psychers in the game hands down, more for living lightning than JoWW. A autocannon with unlimited range and possible 6 shots? That is devistating in the current all armor edition we play in now. Dont get me started on there crazy psychic protection...

No trying to be rude at all, BUT I will defend the validity of the OP's origional statment to the death.

Dashofpepper wrote:Patience.

Mech IG was ridiculous when it came out, and still is. The longfang spam as a cheap unit was needed to counter mech IG's dominance. Dark Eldar are now something of a hard counter to Space Wolves.

In the game of Rock paper scissors...


Space Wolves = Rock
Mech IG = Scissors
Dark Eldar = Paper

36" splinter cannons that can pour out such a volume of fire that longfangs are evaporated before getting a chance to fire. On the flip side the vehices are weak and I still don't know how to answer Guard.

Wrong. SW bolters can bring down there pathetic vehicels before you even begine to get into 15 missile shots, 2 living lightning shots (possible 12 S7 shots), and a row of razorbacks prolly with things that kill vehicles. DE get no armor saves against bolters, DE have no common way of dealing with walkers in CC, No psychic defence. Really the DE codex is nothing special and cant begin to touch a SW gunline.

Kurgash wrote:Is it bad that I am now tooling around a World Eater list using the Space Wolf codex because I can actually have the theme force I want?

yes

Mahu wrote:I have been playing 40k for 7 years now, going from late third through today.

I have to say that the game is much better balanced and diverse then it ever was, from a competitive stand point, and I think that fact really upsets people's understanding of competitive play in this current edition, because it is increasingly harder to come up with a list that can handle all comers, and you throw in the utility knife of the Space Wolf codex, and you can easily have the perception that the codex having an unfair advantage.

I play Blood Angels, in an area that has a tournament at a different store every week almost, and a large variety of players. Some stores I go to, the majority of the players are space wolves, among our local group, Space Wolves have much less impact, because we have learned how to beat them enough, that their impact has considerably lessened.

Part of the way to counter the "Space Wolf Effect" is to just take into consideration their almost "default" tactics. You know that you will be probably facing a Space Wolf army with Long Fangs and a Rune Priest eventually, so it is easy to build hard counters into your own list. Target Priority against them becomes fairly easy. I know I limit their firepower alot, just by causing a single casualty to a long fang squad, as they would almost rather take the sergent then anything else, that dilutes their firepower alot because they can't spread their firepower around like they would like to. Rune Priests are generally not deployed far forward, so you can actually take advantage of their 24" range and hit them on a flank.

It's all about exploiting the advantages of your army against theirs.

Orks can present a Kan wall with a crap ton of shooting and a KFF, or throw a bunch of AV 14 Battle Wagons that missle launchers struggle against. You concentrate firepower on Long Fangs, and take the bet of your assault versus their assault, chances are you are winning that contest.

IG can laydown their own ridiculous amount of fire power, having enough shots to at the very least cause Long Fangs to flee whilst you are blowing up thier transports and delaying their army.

Blood Angels (the army I play) have more access to str. 10 power weapons then most, which makes Thunderwolves cry. I can deepstrike a smoked Land Raider in front of long fangs and laugh at them. And bait their Grey Hunters to try and pop me with their meltas. Even if they kill the tank, the unit I have inside will murder them. Plus BA can put out better quality of shots on more mobile platforms then Long Fangs can, whilst being more survivable with lots of FNP.

Standard Marines can get the drop on Space Wolves as well, with Iron Clad Dreadnoughts, Dakka Dreads killing tanks, and Thunderfire Cannons heaping wounds one Long Fangs and drawing fire. Marines still have cheap Thunderhammer Storm Shields, that should win combats with Null Zone up against most SW assault elements (but that comes down to piling units on top of other units)

As Dash said, Dark Eldar, will be the Space Wolves undoing. You put at least 5 Venoms on the table, and long fangs will not last long. Combine that with access to multiple blasters, Dark Lances, and Heat Lances, and the DE can, and will, limit the amount of shooting coming back at them. Especially with their abilities to ensure the first turn.

I have seen massive genestealers just murder space wolves, even when JOTWW kills a couple of MCs. I think the Trygon gets overlooked a lot in this equation, as a MC that can deepstrike on top of a long fang squad, shoot it up, and be almost immune to JOTWW. Getting FNP on an MC is also funny in the Long fang equation. Your assault units can handle grey hunters as long as you can lock down the dependency they have in their firepower.

Space Wolves are an easy codex to pick up and play and do well with. No one is arguing that. But a good player with any other fifth edition codex, can and will successfully challenge them. The game is not boring to me for two reasons. I am always changing my list, which is one thing 5th edition allows you to do more then any other eddition, and Space Wolves fell a little out of favor as soon as people where hard countering them. There are still great Space Wolf players in my area, hell, my roommate is a 4 consequetive RTT winner with them, but they are not a prevailing army. Foot Eldar thrive in our area and has successfully challenge Space Wolves, because the player know the SW game. I know I will have a good game when I see a Space Wolves player, but I never feel like they have an advantage over me. Not anymore.

Your opinion seem biased based on the fact that the people in your area are unique in the fact that they talor there lists to deal with the unusal amount of SW in your area.

Mahu wrote:I still think this thread is concentrating on what Space Wolves do well, but not looking at it's downsides.

Namely, the cost of their assault units in comparison with other armies.

My qualm isn't so much what they do well rather than what they don't. My biggest problem is the lack of a distinct weakness, unlike most armies who will struggle in one form of combat or another or for whom you'll have to pay huge amounts of points for, Space Wolves are relatively lacking in flaws.
Space Wolves are naturally a Close Quarters (- 24") army (my tactica) and yet they are still very capable in close combat and at range. One of the big problems with the likes of the typical razorback/long fang tournament list is that they can possess a huge amount of firepower and still be good in assault. Assault dedicated armies will often have too crippling losses to be able to overwhelm them when they reach them in close combat, whereas the Space Wolves can choose to engage long-ranged armies up-close.

To me at-least, Space Wolves are too good at everything which is why they are becoming so common and uniform, they can be out-gunned by IG or out-assaulted by Tyranids, but that's looking at things in a vacuum, the reality is that the Space Wolves are at the core under-costed and very capable.

If Grey Hunters were the same price as tactical marines (loss of combat tactics, leadership, heavy weapon) then that would make sense, as it would for Long Fangs to cost more (they are actually the same price as GH's but have extra Ld) and/or for their options to cost more.
I love the Space Wolves in terms of the 40K universe, but what I believe to be the main problem in-game (particularly tournament where it's abused) is the low-cost of some of their best units and fairly significant lack of weakness, only helped by the low costs...

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:There are quite a few units in the book that doesnt seem to be taken alot, or at all. I've never seen anyone take any of the Bloodclaw variants (Swiftclaw bikers, Sky Claw Jump packs) and GW might have thought that nerfing some units might justify the perks of the others, but didnt realise the players could simply choose not to take these options.

By quite a few you mean Whirlwinds, Fen. Wolves, WGBL's and Swiftclaws? Sky Claws aren't that uncommon but even so these are the only weak units in the codex, generally.

O yes and on the topic of SW fluff:

SW are mutants: Canis helix

SW are heretics: dont obey codex astares, Kill inquisiton and SoB, and use daemon weapons (logan Grimmnar), Venerate wolves?

SW are hypocrites: Hate psychers but have the most powerful psychers in the game

Any other SM would be purged for these indescretions but because of there "fluff" armor are spared. I HATE SW!

... k I'm done lol

Laughing God wrote:

Redbeard wrote:I'm not one of these super-old-time players who can cite figures dating back to Rogue Trader. But in the five or six years that I've been playing, I don't recall seeing such uniformity in what is being run. When I started playing, you had traits and doctrines for marines and guard, and each chaos legion had its own flavour. The eldar had five different craftworld lists available to them, and even orks had three variants (Codex, Speed Freaks, and Feral). GWs design process has consistently removed options over the last few years, with the result that every codex can be approached in a 'take the strongest stuff' method, and Space Wolves simply have the strongest stuff.

The net effect, for me at least, is an increasing level of boredom with the game. Even in my casual games, I'm seeing a lot of the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality. I wonder if this is what the Fantasy players were going through at the end of 7th ed, where you either played Daemons, or Vampires, or got screwed.

I agree on all of this completely. Taking it even further on your last point the game is becoming more narrow minded than I've ever seen it. MOST armies I see are run with the same list every game, not just SW. And I play at a fairly large flgs. SW, BA, Eldar, Chaos, Daemons, Tau, IG, the list goes on, a standard competative build hits and everyone playes those lists over and over again. Gunline for SW, DoA/Razorspam for BA, Tankspam eldar, Dual lash chaos, all khorne daemons+fateweaver, Gunline tau, leafblower IG, dah de dah de dah... you get it. People are forced into these places to compete with the other fools who started running these lists and didnt stop after the tourney. Also the codexes utter lack of individuality in characters and units like they all used to have have forced players into these cookie cutter builds. Dark days ahead im thinking till 6th edition...

The idea of this lasting 'til 6th edition is a fairly huge assumption and I doubt neither you nor you can say that such a thing has happened in the past or would be completely unusual.

I agree with what you're saying about the common lists within tournaments (and the internet(!)) and these are commonly the lists of the unimaginative or ambitious IMHO. What this can however do is create quite a predictable Meta for the actually skilled generals to take advantage of, whereby inconventional yet competitive lists can be used to good effect, partially due to the element of surprise. It's not difficult to predict most of the lists that could turn up (as you've said) so it means that skilled generals can use a list capable of defeating the common builds whilst being unique on its own. Blackmoor is such an example of this.
I am not, by any means advocating the constant copy/paste of 'tournament lists' however, this lack of imagination does open the doors for the actually skilled players with unconventional lists to seize top-spot and potentially change the meta or general perspective. Silver lining and all that...


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Laughing God wrote:O yes and on the topic of SW fluff:

SW are mutants: Canis helix

SW are heretics: dont obey codex astares, Kill inquisiton and SoB, and use daemon weapons (logan Grimmnar), Venerate wolves?

SW are hypocrites: Hate psychers but have the most powerful psychers in the game

Any other SM would be purged for these indescretions but because of there "fluff" armor are spared. I HATE SW!

... k I'm done lol

Mutants?
No. Some Space Wolves are abnormal, as is there gene-seed. They are not necessarily mutants and the entire chapter certainly isn't.

Heretics?
Several Chapters don't obey Codex astartes and doing so doesn't make you a heretic, just because Rowboat says it's the way doesn't mean it is.
Many Warriors use weapons 'won' off defeating Champions of Chaos or whatnot, I don't recall anywhere stating it's a daemon weapon let alone that it makes Grimnar a heretic.
Veneration of wolves (not really veneration considering they wear them as underwear and whatnot) isn't really heretical either.

YES, the killing of the Inq. etc. IS heretical. Albeit in some cases, justified.

Hypocrites?
Game does not equate to Fluff.

Blood Angels are much more divergent than Space Wolves and that's not caused them to be purged or whatnot. Space Wolves are arguably the most loyal chapter to humanity and ultimately have fought in its defence countless times, their fluff is their strong-point IMHO and at the very least they are better as an ally rather than an enemy.

Um, how so? You mean like Wolf Guard? They are extremely cost efficient with some of the cheapest access to close combat gear amongst MEQ armies in the game and one of the most diverse arrays of options of any unit out there. 18pts a piece for 2A base with Counterattack, Ld9, and a buttload of reduced price close combat weapons?

They are still paying more for a similarly equipped (and free) Sergent from the Blood Angels and Space Marine Codexes. Plus if you take that Leader, you loose the ability to take full upgrades in your squads. Space Wolves don't have the transport capacities of the new Marine codexes, so they are forced to choose. The best they can do for special weapons is take a combi-weapon with that leader, and since you are not getting an extra attack anyways, most players take a powerfist. So you are spending 43 points on a single meltagun shot and 3 powerfist attacks at best, that is pretty fairly priced, considering other Marine armies get their Leadership 9 Sergent for free, and only have to pay 35 points for that same configuration.

Their Terminators have the largest array of options available to them of any terminator unit, and are the cheapest in the game except for Chaos terminators, but get ATSKNF and Counterattack and more weapons options for it.

They pay more points for their terminators, because they have to pay for every option. Yes, a basic Power Weapon - Storm Bolter Terminator is cheap at 33 points. But star spending points on them for upgrades, and the unit cost starts to sky rocket. Storm shields are 15 point upgrades by themselves. Are you going to tell me a 48 point terminator with a power weapon and storm shield is cheap? Especially compared to Blood Angel Lightning Claw Terminators that have access to Furious Charge and FNP? Or to Space Marine Terminators that have access to free Master Crafting, or Chaplains?

The only part of their options that isn't at least on par with others is the TH/SS combo, which is drastically *undercosted* in other armies. (seriously, you could make them 50pts each and they'd still be taken just as often, people would cut other units before they'd stop taking them)

See, I don't see them undercosted at all. In Codex Marines, it is really their only line unit in a primarily shooty army, and in Blood Angels, they pay slightly more, but they compete fairly heavily with Lightning Claws that can be buffed to god like levels.

Likewise, TWC's may be expensive, but are hugely powerful units and can play wound allocation gimmicks with the best of them, and are wholly worth their cost.

They have plenty of hard counters. For me, Blood Angels have no problems with them. Between Furious Charging Might of Heroes Librarian Dreadnoughts, Librarians that can become strength 10 in combat, and a multitude of access to re-rolling hits and wounds str, 5 attacks, they can be dealt with. Dark Eldar love to see Thunderwolf Cav.

The point is a decent Thunderwolf unit, with a few storm sheilds and an attached Lord, will cost you a huge amount of points, and if you know how to deal with them with your army, and brought some counters, you should be able to handle them like any other brick unit.

The bloodclaws and the like aren't exactly expensive either, no more than their counterparts in other books, though they swap WS4 (bs4 means little as they really don't have meaningful shooting) for Headstrong, Berzerk Charge and Counterattack.

Blood Claws don't like to be charged, like at all. A decent unit will hit them easier and pile the wounds on quickly. They don't get berserk when they counter charge.

Their are reasons why most SW players rely heavily on the units on Redbeard's list. They are cheap and effective, but if you turn that strentgh into a weakness, but taking things that can handle that well, then it comes down to your ability to tackle the high cost assault units that they have. Most armies have those answers, and can give Space Wolves a run for their money because of that. I still think there is too much emphasis on what Space Wolves does well, without any serious debate on how to tackle them in the current system.

Your opinion seem biased based on the fact that the people in your area are unique in the fact that they talor there lists to deal with the unusal amount of SW in your area.

No more list tailoring, then building any list to be able to tackle multiple adversaries. A good list needs to be able to handle Space Wolves, like it needs to be able to handle guard or Tyranids. My point is, learn to handle Space Wolves and you will be much more successful.

Even worse was the whole thing about Space Wolves fire artillery by *smell* (inside a crowded armored fighting vehicle smelling of oil, fuel, rocket propellant, body odor, blood, sweat, etc, in the midst of a battlefield at targets many hundreds of meters away with all sorts of smells in between)...then rush up to watch the results, thereby negating the entire point of artillery weapons.

And of course "Canis Wolfborn, of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves, The Wolf King, Lord of the Wolfkin, riding his giant Thunderwolf, Weilding his Wolfclaws, Wolf Tail Talisman, and Wolf Tooth Neclace, Bearing the Saga of the Wolfkin, accompanied by his Fenrisian Wolves. (all of those things are in his unit entry)

Okay, short of starting a different army, how do Tyranids deal with them, without making themselves vulnerable to non-space wolves? Assume the wolves are played competently too.

Vaktathi wrote:Even worse was the whole thing about Space Wolves fire artillery by *smell* (inside a crowded armored fighting vehicle smelling of oil, fuel, rocket propellant, body odor, blood, sweat, etc, in the midst of a battlefield at targets many hundreds of meters away with all sorts of smells in between)...then rush up to watch the results, thereby negating the entire point of artillery weapons.

And of course "Canis Wolfborn, of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves, The Wolf King, Lord of the Wolfkin, riding his giant Thunderwolf, Weilding his Wolfclaws, Wolf Tail Talisman, and Wolf Tooth Neclace, Bearing the Saga of the Wolfkin, accompanied by his Fenrisian Wolves. (all of those things are in his unit entry)

What the Wolf man!? I cant wolfing believe that wolf! Wolf these mother wolfers, GW must have been wolfing high to wolf such wolf wolf...

lol

Hide your kids, hide your wife, GW's wolfing every page in here.


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Redbeard wrote:Okay, short of starting a different army, how do Tyranids deal with them, without making themselves vulnerable to non-space wolves? Assume the wolves are played competently too.

lets see here tyranids suck agains...SW, and now DE, starting to sense some nid hate...

They are still paying more for a similarly equipped (and free) Sergent from the Blood Angels and Space Marine Codexes.

Really? The cost of the sergeant is built into the unit. A tac squad is 90pts, already taking into account the sergeant (otherwise it would be 75), and the additional 1ppm the marines cost is taking into account their free weapons for being 10 strong (as otherwise you miss out and are discouraged from taking smaller units)

5 basic Tac Marines with their sergeant is 90pts. 5 Grey Hunters *plus* a Wolf Guard is 93pts. For 3 extra points you get an extra dude, ccw, and counterattack, and the WG's upgrade weapons are 5pts cheaper, and the squad can take a special weapon. 5 Grey Hunters with a Pfist WG is 113pts (6 models plus powerfist), 5 Tac Marines with a powerfist (5 models plus powerfist) is 115pts.

10 Tac Marines with a flamer, missile, and powerfist in a Rhino is 230pts. 9 GH's w/Flamer+Pfist/Combi-weapon WG in a Rhino is 213pts. Similar firepower (and lets face it, even if GH's had the option for a HW, most wouldn't take it anyway given the nature of the unit), much better CC, and lower cost on the SW unit.

A basic Tac squad of 5 dudes total and a Pfist/Cweapon for the sergeant in a TLLC Razorback is 200pts. 5 Grey Hunters *plus* a Pfist/Cweapon WG in a TLLC Razorback is 193pts. Again, cheaper, more dudes, better dudes.

already Plus if you take that Leader, you loose the ability to take full upgrades in your squads.

Mitigated by the fact that the squad leader can take a combi-weapon, and that second weapon is free if they don't take the squad leader, unlike say, CSM's.

Space Wolves don't have the transport capacities of the new Marine codexes, so they are forced to choose.

only for Drop Pods and Land Raiders. Rhino's/Razorbacks are *identical*. Only C:SM gets 12man drop pods & LR's, BA's didn't get them because Matt Ward got in a lot of trouble for having done that. I'd expect that to get reduced again once 6E C:SM comes out, and would not expect C: DA or C:BT to get expanded transport capabilities either.

The best they can do for special weapons is take a combi-weapon with that leader, and since you are not getting an extra attack anyways, most players take a powerfist.

Right, but where's the downside here? That's a great loadout.

So you are spending 43 points on a single meltagun shot and 3 powerfist attacks at best, that is pretty fairly priced, considering other Marine armies get their Leadership 9 Sergent for free

Again, no they don't get it, its built into the units base cost as above.

and only have to pay 35 points for that same configuration.

They are effectively paying 55, not 35. 65 with combi weapon unlike the 43 for the WG (or 38 without combi-weapon). And in the end, it's all meaningless as total *unit* costs after all is said and done end up significantly lower for the SW's either way.

They pay more points for their terminators, because they have to pay for every option.

They start significantly cheaper, and don't pay any more than anyone else for most options, and have far more options.

Yes, a basic Power Weapon - Storm Bolter Terminator is cheap at 33 points. But star spending points on them for upgrades, and the unit cost starts to sky rocket. Storm shields are 15 point upgrades by themselves.

The only thigns that *skyrocket* cost are the Thunderhammers and Stormshields. You don't need them on every model or any. The other options are very reasonably priced and you don't need to take every upgrade on every model.

Are you going to tell me a 48 point terminator with a power weapon and storm shield is cheap?

No, but I'm not saying it's exactly overcosted either. A basic Pfist one with Counterattack for 3pts more than a generic termi is a great buy. 38pts for a Combi-melta termi with counterattack is awesome. 200pts for 3 combi meltas and 2 powerfists with counterattack on 5 dudes is awesome, it's much more flexible than generic termi's without the overkill of having Pfists on *everyone*.

Especially compared to Blood Angel Lightning Claw Terminators that have access to Furious Charge and FNP? Or to Space Marine Terminators that have access to free Master Crafting, or Chaplains?

Again, you'll notice I made the exception for Stormshield units, as they are drastically *UNDERCOSTED* elsewhere. Just because they are more realistically costed in the SW book doesn't mean the whole unit is bad. People overfocus on that one piece of wargear time and again. SW Termi's are far more flexible in terms of options and costing (both up and down) with a much greater variety of roles to fill than other loyalist termi's. Look at them next to CSM termi's, both in terms of role and competitiveness, and you'll see where they start to become very good units that don't need to be kitted out to be a bajillion points to be good.

See, I don't see them undercosted at all. In Codex Marines, it is really their only line unit in a primarily shooty army, and in Blood Angels, they pay slightly more, but they compete fairly heavily with Lightning Claws that can be buffed to god like levels.

Considering you don't *ever* see other terminators in these armies, and that even the 5pt increase hasn't decreased their popularity with blood angels, I'd say its safe to say they are overprice. I know I would still take them in a heartbeat at 50pts per model.

They have plenty of hard counters. For me, Blood Angels have no problems with them. Between Furious Charging Might of Heroes Librarian Dreadnoughts, Librarians that can become strength 10 in combat, and a multitude of access to re-rolling hits and wounds str, 5 attacks, they can be dealt with. Dark Eldar love to see Thunderwolf Cav.

That's throwing them into a unit that of course will probably do a number on them. 99% of units don't have S10, and even then the Dread will have to make it through the ubiquitous couple of guys with 3++ saves, then face some hurt with the dudes with pfists/thammers. As to DE, they love to see big expensive units of course, the army is *built* around destroying units like that (which is why they then have huge problems with IG who are built around lots of cheap weeny units and shooting). Not everyone can.

The point is a decent Thunderwolf unit, with a few storm sheilds and an attached Lord, will cost you a huge amount of points, and if you know how to deal with them with your army, and brought some counters, you should be able to handle them like any other brick unit.

They don't need a Lord to do their job, and yes, they will cost a fair number of points, but they also aren't exactly overly expensive for what they offer, nor are they necessary by any means to building a hyper-competitive SW list.

Blood Claws don't like to be charged, like at all. A decent unit will hit them easier and pile the wounds on quickly.

Probably not much, if any faster than most other SM units, and with Counterattack they'll still hit harder back than most things will be hitting them. They still get 2 attacks base from their wargear, and 3 with counterattack. 30 S4 I4 attacks from a 10man unit even when charged is pretty brutal, they are still on average putting more hurt on a charging enemy tac squad than they are recieving, and after the first round it goes further in their favor when the attacks ratio goes from 2:3 to 1:2.

They don't get berserk when they counter charge.

Right, but that still doesn't exactly make them poor units or terrible when charged. They are still putting out just as much hurt on an enemy Tac equivalent as my CSM's are when *charging*.

Their are reasons why most SW players rely heavily on the units on Redbeard's list. They are cheap and effective, but if you turn that strentgh into a weakness, but taking things that can handle that well, then it comes down to your ability to tackle the high cost assault units that they have

Two problems with this. First, those high cost assault units are brutally effective and not exactly the easiest things to counter. Second, the high cost assault units aren't needed to make a very competitive SW list.

Laughing God wrote:
Hide your kids, hide your wife, GW's wolfing every page in here.

sigged lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:
Mutants?
No. Some Space Wolves are abnormal, as is there gene-seed. They are not necessarily mutants and the entire chapter certainly isn't.

Abnormal is a bit of a stretch. Having an extra toe is abnormal, being double jointed is abnormal, turning into a werewolf is a little outside the realm of abnormal. And yes we all get that not every space wolf does this, but they all have the potential to. All psykers have the potential to turn into living gates to hell, and you see how rigidly they're controlled. The Space Wolves seem to be exempt from every law governing the Imperium of Man.

Just Dave wrote:
Heretics?
Several Chapters don't obey Codex astartes and doing so doesn't make you a heretic, just because Rowboat says it's the way doesn't mean it is.
Many Warriors use weapons 'won' off defeating Champions of Chaos or whatnot, I don't recall anywhere stating it's a daemon weapon let alone that it makes Grimnar a heretic.
Veneration of wolves (not really veneration considering they wear them as underwear and whatnot) isn't really heretical either.

Cite your sources before you refute an argument on the basis of, "these guys I know did this and used that, I can't be bothered to tell you where or when, but I'm right".

Just Dave wrote:
YES, the killing of the Inq. etc. IS heretical. Albeit in some cases, justified.

Just Dave wrote:
Hypocrites?
Game does not equate to Fluff.

Regardless it does not excuse the fact that they are, they go against every piece of fluff written on the superstition of their Legion

Just Dave wrote:
Blood Angels are much more divergent than Space Wolves and that's not caused them to be purged or whatnot.

In what way? Blood Angels suffer from bad dreams and paranoid schizophrenia that causes them to see something that isn't real, they also have glaring anger issues, but regardless these are things inherent even in today's populace. Granted these individuals are usually institutionalized, howver you don't hear about any cases of 'Werewolf-ism" cropping up around the world. I'm sorry, but the Space Wolves take the cake for genetic deviancy among the loyalist chapters of the Astartes.

Just Dave wrote:By quite a few you mean Whirlwinds, Fen. Wolves, WGBL's and Swiftclaws? Sky Claws aren't that uncommon but even so these are the only weak units in the codex, generally.

That's still a fair bit of unit choices, and a few upgrades (such as someone pointed out the TH/SS combo) are overcosted, making them not as viable if you took them SM style. However what the devs apparently failed to see is that the SW have alot of alternatives, to the point that they can simply ignore the poor units in the codex, or take them in moderation with no detriment to the army as a whole. There are no innate drawbacks in the units themselves.

All codices have their poor choices which are often over-looked.
Out of these 4, Whirlwinds and Fen. Wolves can actually be used to good effect.

You are right however in that there are few innate drawbacks within the army, that's what I've been arguing throughout this entire thread...

I started as a 'Nids player. This being said, I moved to Grey Knights(nigh polar opposites), and had fun with both armies. When my 3rd edition Daemonhunters codex became obsolite compared to other armies, I poured my money into the 'Nids, and their 5th edition codex was on the horizon. At that point, my carnifex was in his prime. He ran alone, sure, but now, I barely fit him into my lists...

However, when the Space Wolves codex came out, I began to find my nids all but impossible to win against my one friend, who, fielded space wolves regualarly. He beats me out of CC, ranged, and almost every other aspect.

Charging your monstrous Creatures? NOOOO!!! Jaws...Dead. Not charging them? Missiled...Deader!

Your gribblies die at the might of my Counter-Attack! For we whittled you to nothing now that your Tervigon has been hit with a trillion rockets!

I've tried a dozen different tactics, and of them, two put me out on top. WITH THE GREY KNIGHTS! I stood a far better chance with them it seemed than my nids, and I tried so many different lists, strategies, field moves, units... EVERYTHING. Fielded Daemonhunters one time, and won. Fielded Tyranids 10 times, and won...ONCE. I cannot seem to beat his units on any terms, ground, position. They seem so much like a hard counter, that I simply no longer field them against him, and will not field them against most any SW army. Even for fun, I cannot have fun, because every time I know when I start the game, that my loss is all but nigh, even if I try... Since my Daemonhunters now only see the fields when facing SW, I can't wait to see if the codex will refine them some more...

And forget it if my MCs actually make it into CC... His blood-claws bog him down with Re-rollable Hits and Wounds... /rant

It's not like people all build their armies the same way.
If someone is building a hyper-competetive army for a casual game then fine you lost a game.
If someone does it in a tournement that's fine you can't really expect them to not bring their best.

Footsloggin wrote:I started as a 'Nids player. This being said, I moved to Grey Knights(nigh polar opposites), and had fun with both armies. When my 3rd edition Daemonhunters codex became obsolite compared to other armies, I poured my money into the 'Nids, and their 5th edition codex was on the horizon. At that point, my carnifex was in his prime. He ran alone, sure, but now, I barely fit him into my lists...

However, when the Space Wolves codex came out, I began to find my nids all but impossible to win against my one friend, who, fielded space wolves regualarly. He beats me out of CC, ranged, and almost every other aspect.

Charging your monstrous Creatures? NOOOO!!! Jaws...Dead. Not charging them? Missiled...Deader!

Your gribblies die at the might of my Counter-Attack! For we whittled you to nothing now that your Tervigon has been hit with a trillion rockets!

I've tried a dozen different tactics, and of them, two put me out on top. WITH THE GREY KNIGHTS! I stood a far better chance with them it seemed than my nids, and I tried so many different lists, strategies, field moves, units... EVERYTHING. Fielded Daemonhunters one time, and won. Fielded Tyranids 10 times, and won...ONCE. I cannot seem to beat his units on any terms, ground, position. They seem so much like a hard counter, that I simply no longer field them against him, and will not field them against most any SW army. Even for fun, I cannot have fun, because every time I know when I start the game, that my loss is all but nigh, even if I try... Since my Daemonhunters now only see the fields when facing SW, I can't wait to see if the codex will refine them some more...

And forget it if my MCs actually make it into CC... His blood-claws bog him down with Re-rollable Hits and Wounds... /rant

interesting, what do you usually run with your GK that is allowing you to best him so?

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:I started as a 'Nids player. This being said, I moved to Grey Knights(nigh polar opposites), and had fun with both armies. When my 3rd edition Daemonhunters codex became obsolite compared to other armies, I poured my money into the 'Nids, and their 5th edition codex was on the horizon. At that point, my carnifex was in his prime. He ran alone, sure, but now, I barely fit him into my lists...

However, when the Space Wolves codex came out, I began to find my nids all but impossible to win against my one friend, who, fielded space wolves regualarly. He beats me out of CC, ranged, and almost every other aspect.

Charging your monstrous Creatures? NOOOO!!! Jaws...Dead. Not charging them? Missiled...Deader!

Your gribblies die at the might of my Counter-Attack! For we whittled you to nothing now that your Tervigon has been hit with a trillion rockets!

I've tried a dozen different tactics, and of them, two put me out on top. WITH THE GREY KNIGHTS! I stood a far better chance with them it seemed than my nids, and I tried so many different lists, strategies, field moves, units... EVERYTHING. Fielded Daemonhunters one time, and won. Fielded Tyranids 10 times, and won...ONCE. I cannot seem to beat his units on any terms, ground, position. They seem so much like a hard counter, that I simply no longer field them against him, and will not field them against most any SW army. Even for fun, I cannot have fun, because every time I know when I start the game, that my loss is all but nigh, even if I try... Since my Daemonhunters now only see the fields when facing SW, I can't wait to see if the codex will refine them some more...

And forget it if my MCs actually make it into CC... His blood-claws bog him down with Re-rollable Hits and Wounds... /rant

interesting, what do you usually run with your GK that is allowing you to best him so?

Psycannons, setting up a small firebase whilst his unlucky rolls prevented him from whitling down my forces via' Shrouding. These Knights moved up into range, proceded to kite and kill off some of his units. Meanwhile the Dread pops a few of the razorbacks. S6 attacks from NFW hurt when he decided to charge me. Then again, losing a few Grey Knights struck a signifiacant blow on my forces. But the Justicars cutting units down was very relieving. BC and Termy unit charging Logan, and, due to old TH rules, allowed me to keep him stunned, whilst the squad pummeled the others into oblivion. Long fangs rolled horribly the whole game, and prevented his Missiles from even targetting me. In the end, he held a single objective, I held two, and my Grey Knight squad managed to contest the final objective.

I'm sure that other Vanilla could do better, but I said "Screw it, I never win against these things, might as well play my Grey Knights!"

Laughing God wrote:O yes and on the topic of SW fluff:

SW are mutants: Canis helix

SW are heretics: dont obey codex astares, Kill inquisiton and SoB, and use daemon weapons (logan Grimmnar), Venerate wolves?

SW are hypocrites: Hate psychers but have the most powerful psychers in the game

Any other SM would be purged for these indescretions but because of there "fluff" armor are spared. I HATE SW!

... k I'm done lol

All Space Marines are changed by their gene-seed some more than others.
Both the Inquisition and the SoB start most of those fights although there have been time when SW should have just backed down. And Logan Grimnar won his axe from a chaos champion it never says anything about it being a daemon weapon.
SW hates sorcery and distrusts psykers. Like most of the IoM.
SW are spared because declaring them heretics would cause a civil war. Not only are they one of the largest chapters they are situated next to the cadian gate, instability there is unacceptable. There are also dozens of factions who would side with the SW.

Grakmar wrote:And, I don't blame C:SM, DA, BT, etc players from playing it counts-as SW. It's really hard to look at a codex and see that you can take a whole bunch of upgrades to your list and not have to really loose anything.

Oh, don't worry, those of us that stick to our Codex blame them enough already

purplefood wrote:.
SW hates sorcery and distrusts psykers. Like most of the IoM.

And yet can field more psykers than most armies and probably the best psykers

LaughingGod, rather than me quoting everything you said, about how SW bolters will take down DE transports and.....well, other rubbish - and then trying to convince you that you're completely wrong....

Do you have Vassal? www.vassal40k.info

I'd like you to put together your SW gunline. 18 Longfangs and 10,000 bolters. Against my Dark Eldar. I'd like to demonstrate to you personally how inept Space Wolves are against the new Dark Eldar. You can PM me here, or find me on Skype as Dashofpepper to schedule such a demonstration.

As a long time player, the general drift of 40K has been to simplification at all levels. While the game is streamlined and the codexes have been dumbed-down. Codex creep has been a fact at least all the way from 3rd ed to today.

SW are cheap, offer good psyk attack and defense and like marines from the first time I played the game, they offer resilience and flexibility that no non-marine can match. In the hands of a good player, any marine list can adapt to any opponent with good tactics and a balanced list. The problem today is with SW you have a low cost power (15 x 8 S attacks for 420 pts) base that can reach out and touch any style army of today. That means you have an idiot's choice in front of you whenever you build a list with SW. (i.e. Give me one good reason not to reserve the first 420 pts for the 3 x Long Fangs.) No thought, no better grasp of tactics, you are not necessarily a better general. You just are the beneficiary of a 10-20% bonus in points effiency.

Now I will argue you could purpose build eldar(pick a different race of your preference) and give it back to the SW player. But talk a tournament where you have to play all types of army and that purpose-built eldar list might be very competitive against an SW player but absolutely get owned by the orc or tau or tyrannid player.
Meanwhile the competent if not good SM list player probably didn't have to purpose-build anything and can react and at worst be competitive with any other list that might show its face.

Finally the last idiot test, when I look at spending @ $400 to build a competitive SW army and I am done or $600+ to build another army guess which one the person on the limited hobby budget is going to build. It is the rare person that says, "I think I will invest $600+ dollars on 100+ models that I have to assemble and paint and then struggle to ever be successful." Most will say I have $400 bucks and I can invest the time to assemble and paint 50 or so models and once I work out the kinks I will have a reasonable chance of succeeding for the next 3 or 4 years. (Until GW undercuts you with a paradigm shift in rules or the next "broken" codex.)

Just Dave wrote:All codices have their poor choices which are often over-looked.
Out of these 4, Whirlwinds and Fen. Wolves can actually be used to good effect.

You are right however in that there are few innate drawbacks within the army, that's what I've been arguing throughout this entire thread...

Just pointing out that the designers seemed to thought that limiting certain choices would have been a good drawback to the other things in the list, but didnt expect those very things they were trying to balance out to fulfill what they took away.


EDIT: Also, DAddict, from what your describing, it seems that the Space Wolves do fit their fluff very well, being the boastrous bruisers they are. As for shelling out alot of money for an army, YMMV on that one. Dollar to point wise, Vanilla Space Marines might still be cheaper to field than a Space Wolves force. The other forces alternatively rely on alot of metal models, which may be due to their age (namely the Necrons and the two -hunter armies). We might see alot more Storm Guardians if they came with plastic arms and more than just 8 figs to a 40 buck box. Guard and Nids, the two I think who would be more expensive despite the newer codexes and models, have it's rewards for fielding them moreso than just being a power gamer.

Vaktathi wrote:

purplefood wrote:.
SW hates sorcery and distrusts psykers. Like most of the IoM.

And yet can field more psykers than most armies and probably the best psykers

Nothing says that the psykers they distrust aren't brutally effective.

I agree with what Redbeard said , thats why i never take my current ( if over powered ) armies for granted.
If anything by the next codex update , i would be selling off all the most popular units as no doubt they are inline for a downgrade :'/

Vaktathi wrote:

purplefood wrote:.
SW hates sorcery and distrusts psykers. Like most of the IoM.

And yet can field more psykers than most armies and probably the best psykers

Errt. Try again, of armies that can actually field psychers, SW come in somewhere in the middle. The only codexs that SW beat out are those where the only psycher units comes in the HQ selection, in which case those armies are limited to two. I can't think of a single codex that can field a max of 3 of them, then SW has 4, then everybody else has more.

IG can field 32 psychers
Chaos - 8
BA - 5

Just to name a few armies that can put out more psychers. As for better, LD10 is still LD10. No SW psycher can cast more than 2 powers per turn, there are a few out there that can cast 3.

Granted they have a multiple good anti-psycher equipement. Which fits with their anti-psycher mentality. You have the tools to defeat your enemy. But its not the psycher itself doing the work.