Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've tried to write this a few times now, and each time, it doesn't sound quite right. so, I'm just going to let it ramble if it must.

Also, I have nothing against Space Wolf players, either old-timers, or bandwagon jumpers. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play the strongest army in a competitive environment. I'm also not saying that Space Wolves can't be beat. Far from it. I believe that a good player with a decent list can beat a decent player with a good list about half the time.

That said, I'm getting fairly bored with the game lately, and whenever I try to figure out why, it comes back to Space Wolves. (And, sure, Mech Guard is strong too, but really, Mech Guard has the same vulnerability that Guard has always had - if you close with them and punch them in the mouth, they fold).

So, there are two things going on. The first is that the Space Wolves are just that much better than other MEQ codexes out, and that MEQ armies are always well represented. In the current meched environment, they have the best set of tools at the lowest prices. They can field 15 missiles for less than other armies can field 12, and target three extra enemy units/turn with them. They can do a gunline with razorbacks, or a drive-by list with rhinos and two specials/squad. Their basic troops get 3 attacks/man when charged, compared with 1 attack/man for a vanilla marine. Space Wolf psychic defense is 16% more effective than any other marine's, for the same cost.

Sure, they may not have all the toys (Thunderfires, Ironclads, whatever) or be able to use some of the tricks (combat squads), but point-for-point, the Space Wolf core is cheaper and solider than any other army, and allows you to take the list in a number of different directions. If you like Deathstars, Thunderwolves are right up there among the toughest in the game, especially with a couple of characters. If you like gunlines, you have the razorwall. If you like precision assaults, you can drop-pod. Logan-wing is out there too.

These aren't that bad, looking at their abilities. Other armies can field gunlines, or deathstars. But we come back to the cheap core, and it's a different animal. We figured out how to beat nidzilla, how to beat seer councils, or nob bikers. But what if these were backed up by 15 missiles/turn on top of everything else? How do you beat the codex that's thing isn't that it has some new trick, but, rather, that its trick is simply being cheaper and more effective than your army?

None of this is new. Read the blogs out there... although, that may be part of the problem - and why I see the same thing game-after-game. List is the same, just a new player. So, not only is this codex powerful, but it's also widely played. Often to the point where anyone with MEQ models is running them as Space Wolves lately.

Which leads to the second part of the problem. This codex has hard counters to a number of other codexes. JotWW comes to mind. When the new Nid codex came out, there was all sorts of noise about how cool a Tervigon list could be. From what I can tell, this hasn't happened. Why not? JotWW simply owns Tervigons. (In fact, taking this a step further, the ever-present 15 long-fangs pretty much own new nids too. They can drop the big bugs without breaking a sweat, and instant-kill the mid-sized bugs efficiently) That's a new codex, and from my experience, it hasn't developed much because of how vulnerable it is to the most-played army out there.

There are others suffering the same fate. I'd love to play my Nurgle-daemons again, but the Wolves make them an unwinnable option. I'm sure there are others out there that are being shelved because they simply cannot exist in a field that's 33% comprised of Jaws, 15 cheap missiles, and whatever rounds out the list.

In essence, we're seeing more Wolves, because they're clearly the best MEQ option available, and fewer other things at all because of the hard counters that the wolves present. It's possible that my analysis of why this is happening is wrong, but the fact that it is happening is backed up by data, at least in the events I'm playing in lately. And it seems to be happening at many of the large events that I've read reports from.

I'm not one of these super-old-time players who can cite figures dating back to Rogue Trader. But in the five or six years that I've been playing, I don't recall seeing such uniformity in what is being run. When I started playing, you had traits and doctrines for marines and guard, and each chaos legion had its own flavour. The eldar had five different craftworld lists available to them, and even orks had three variants (Codex, Speed Freaks, and Feral). GWs design process has consistently removed options over the last few years, with the result that every codex can be approached in a 'take the strongest stuff' method, and Space Wolves simply have the strongest stuff.

The net effect, for me at least, is an increasing level of boredom with the game. Even in my casual games, I'm seeing a lot of the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality. I wonder if this is what the Fantasy players were going through at the end of 7th ed, where you either played Daemons, or Vampires, or got screwed.

I agree with every thing you said. The fact that they get counter-attack and acute senses for the same price units (generalizing) as codex marines isn't that fair. Not to mention some of their units are cheaper and better, like Devastators.

I've even gone to lengths to try out Blood Angels lists which is supposedly more unfair that Space Wolves, but I disagree. I think I've only ever fully beaten Space Wolves once, it was in a Capture and Control mission. I've tied about 50% of games that were NOT kill points, against them. I've never won a kill point mission against them.

I play multiple armies. Mostly IG.

I think you've nicely summed up what a lot of people have been thinking (or in a lot of cases, saying). I'm an old Space Wolf player and I missed the last edition of the game, after reading things on here and hearing things being said at the FLGS I'm very very reluctant to field my old army. I've got myself a Nid army now as well, and I would much rather field that than my beloved wolves purely due to the stigma that space wolf players now have to put up with - and it seems that that stigma is rightly earned.

There's always been an "I win" army to field in 40k if memory serves, but it just seems that these days far more people play for the wins than they do for the fluff.

Just for the record, my wolves have no missile launchers, only a single razorback and no rune priests. It's a purely fluff based army, and I'm still reluctant to field it anywhere other than in private friendly games.

Why are you reluctant to field it anywhere but private games? Because it'll get smushed or you'll get the inevitable "lol look at this SW army"?

@red do you find this mentality more in tourneys or overall across the board? What about your local gaming group (friends, LFGS etc)?

I agree with you. The army simply has too much. I think Blood Angels come close in the amount of nonsense they can bring to the table. As you said, there aren't really any drawbacks. There is very little that normal Marines can do that can't be done better in the Space Wolves codex. Really, the same can be said about Blood Angels. These codices should have been divergent marines. They ended up with Marines ++

While some may think JoTWW is not a big deal; it really depends on what army you are. Tyrannids absolutely cower to this. Tervigons are pretty essential, and are killed on a 92% passing psychic test followed by a 66% chance of falling in a hole. The codex just has so much. Long Fangs are amazing. Sure, they have no ablative wounds, but they pump out so much firepower for 140 points. Thunderwolves are just too powerful and sleaze wound allocation. Wolf Lords are amazing. Wolf Guard get their gear for a substantial discount. Hell, they are already incredible cheap for what they are. Even Lone Wolves are a steal.

The army has too much. It's not unbeatable by any means, but it certainly is a top 3 book along with IG and BA with a decent drop off over the next tier of armies in terms of flexibility and cost.

You're absolutely right. Balance is a major issue in 40k. Some armies are simply better than other. And, most armies only have 1 or 2 builds that are viable for them. It ends up causing games to become really repetitive.

I'd suggest you stop focusing on the tournament scene. Play some games with friends or at your FLGS where both you and your opponent intentionally take non-optimized lists.

My favorite games are taking foot-slogging Eldar (massed Guardians, sometimes without a Farseer and with a PL!) against some other fun, non-optimized armies. There are tons of cool, fun units out there that people simply never see because they aren't viable at the tournament level.

But that's kind of the point. These blogs out there, that tell people how to win, and what to field, and what is good, they're read by more than just tournament players. It is spilling over into other play.

Pick-up games at the local store are more likely to have Space Wolves involved. (Often, painted in the colours of some other chapter, again, because the blog-o-sphere has pretty much said this is cool).

That said, it's also really difficult to organize games with 'non-optimized' fun lists. Different people understand that phrase very differently, and you can get wildly variant strength levels as a result. This is really a completely different topic. Not saying it isn't worth trying, but it's not as easy to achieve as it sounds.

I disagree. If Space Wolves seem over-whelming, it's because people haven't put their backs into beating them yet.

In particular I think that the Space Wolves have weaknesses that people used to playing Space Marines are not inclined to exploit.

Take Counter-Attack, for example. The Space Wolves have to pass a Leadership Test first. Actually, the Space Wolves need to be charged first. I've noticed that Space Marines tend to be more effective if they stay out of combat (at least those they can't win easily over a game turn) and so you want to charge them to neuter their shooting. With Space Wolves you want to shoot them.

Long Fangs, well, I've talked enough about the weaknesses of Long Fangs. Needless to say I'm still surprised that they're considered a threat when so much can drop in and destroy six Space Marines so easily.

Razorbacks are also a source of consternation for me, not because they're some terrible scourge, but because people are afraid of lots of AV11 vehicles. Heavy Bolters can take them down! Maybe it's just because I play Chaos Space Marines who can take Autocannons out the yin-yang region, but I just don't see them as a threat commensurate with their points value.

Likewise Rune Priests are just as useless as Space Marine Librarians in close combat, and have less useful psychic powers. While they have some nice shooting attacks, you can get similar firepower for cheaper elsewhere in the list, and if you take them, then you can't take the other, less easily killed characters. Maxing out on HQ is nice, but even armies where you can only take two, it's often wiser to just take one and devote the points to more of the units that actually do work.

If players are defaulting to Space Wolves, it's because they don't get the advantages and disadvantages that Space Wolves offer, and the community doesn't either.

I'll start with a story and end with a question.

My friends got me into 40K about a year and a half ago; and I've been a pretty big nerd, so I knew a little bit about the game and setting (RAWR GRIMDARK SPACE!)
I bought my first set right when 5th ed came out (I didn't even know there was a new edition lol) so I bought SM because one of my professors suggested them for a newb (would've played Tau, but two friends already had them). So I ended up buying the shiny new books without knowing how shiny they were. Cut to the Wolves codex being released a while later, my friends and I were playing Apoc and I had a SM list all figured out; so my friend Jimmy says "Hey Bojo, why don't you proxy these new wolves? They match your playstyle a lot better." (I've played like maybe 5 games up to this point) So I end up getting a pretty solid list made for me, and having absolutely no idea what I was doing I ended up holding an entire side of the board and utterly shutting down the Ork player (I owe my life to Logan Grimnar to this day).
I bought the codex, bough more minis, and learned me some fluff and after signing up on Dakka, actually learning how to play them!
/story

So my question is, do you guys think that Wolves are going to stay a contender for the rest of the edition? Will power creep/new codecies bring anything that stops ML/RB spam or TWC rushes? I mean as an utter newb this army (and yes, help from an experienced player) let me hold against a much better player than myself for five turns in Apocalypse.

Nothing is for certain.

They might stay the strongest codex around until they're next updated, they might even be overtaken by the next codex release. It comes down to playing what you like and not relying on how broken the codex is.


I don't really see to many SW armies around, I guess the bandwagoners didn't hang on to them long enough to figure it out before latching onto the Blood Angels. Although the worst form of it I have seen is with the new Dark Eldar release, but generally it isn't really much of a problem as you would think. I've only fought against SW maybe once or twice, one time with SoB in a small point game and another at a higher level with Eldar.

I'm not sure about the Eldar one, but the SoB managed to win. Even with the dodgy wording on the weather guy's powers getting around the SoB's psychic defence. But acts of faith are pretty cool when used correctly.

I love the Space Wolves, they are my main army (and 2nd(!) favourite) and always have been. I could dip in and out of other armies and phases but I'd always come back to the Space Wolves. What I love most about the Space Wolves is their character and their fluff.

HOWEVER I hate their current situation within the game. It's as you said, they're too strong, they're my favourite army but I hate them within their current Codex. I love the heroic nature of the Space Wolves but their current army list really annoys me. I also avoid playing them, my favourite army, because of the reputation attached. I no longer actively offer tactical or army list advice for Space Wolves as there is no real point or need. They aren't hard to understand and you've got everyone and their mothers claiming to be an expert on the matter. I've created my tactica(s) (one WiP) and am leaving it at that. It's like teaching someone how to use a gun in a knife fight, there's no point or need.

As I've said, they're my main army, I love the Space Wolves but there current state really annoys me. I actually have to be quite ashamed of my preferred army. I don't run Razorback/Rune Priest/Long Fang lists but other people won't necessarily know this, they won't know I've been with the Space Wolves long before their new Codex. Despite my not being so, the perception would automatically be me as being a band-wagon jumper or WAAC costs player where there really, REALLY isn't the case.

When you feel ashamed of being a Space Wolf fan, you know something's wrong. I like them for their back-ground and story, not for there in-game ability.

Gijouhei wrote:I think you've nicely summed up what a lot of people have been thinking (or in a lot of cases, saying). I'm an old Space Wolf player *snip*, after reading things on here and hearing things being said at the FLGS I'm very very reluctant to field my old army. I've got myself a Nid army now as well, and I would much rather field that than my beloved wolves purely due to the stigma that space wolf players now have to put up with - and it seems that that stigma is rightly earned.

I completely agree with what he has said here.

Redbeard wrote:So, there are two things going on. The first is that the Space Wolves are just that much better than other MEQ codexes out, and that MEQ armies are always well represented. In the current meched environment, they have the best set of tools at the lowest prices. They can field 15 missiles for less than other armies can field 12, and target three extra enemy units/turn with them. They can do a gunline with razorbacks, or a drive-by list with rhinos and two specials/squad. Their basic troops get 3 attacks/man when charged, compared with 1 attack/man for a vanilla marine. Space Wolf psychic defense is 16% more effective than any other marine's, for the same cost.

Sure, they may not have all the toys (Thunderfires, Ironclads, whatever) or be able to use some of the tricks (combat squads), but point-for-point, the Space Wolf core is cheaper and solider than any other army, and allows you to take the list in a number of different directions. If you like Deathstars, Thunderwolves are right up there among the toughest in the game, especially with a couple of characters. If you like gunlines, you have the razorwall. If you like precision assaults, you can drop-pod. Logan-wing is out there too.

These aren't that bad, looking at their abilities. Other armies can field gunlines, or deathstars. But we come back to the cheap core, and it's a different animal. We figured out how to beat nidzilla, how to beat seer councils, or nob bikers. But what if these were backed up by 15 missiles/turn on top of everything else? How do you beat the codex that's thing isn't that it has some new trick, but, rather, that its trick is simply being cheaper and more effective than your army?

None of this is new. Read the blogs out there... although, that may be part of the problem - and why I see the same thing game-after-game. List is the same, just a new player. So, not only is this codex powerful, but it's also widely played. Often to the point where anyone with MEQ models is running them as Space Wolves lately.

In essence, we're seeing more Wolves, because they're clearly the best MEQ option available, and fewer other things at all because of the hard counters that the wolves present. It's possible that my analysis of why this is happening is wrong, but the fact that it is happening is backed up by data, at least in the events I'm playing in lately. And it seems to be happening at many of the large events that I've read reports from.

The net effect, for me at least, is an increasing level of boredom with the game. Even in my casual games, I'm seeing a lot of the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality. I wonder if this is what the Fantasy players were going through at the end of 7th ed, where you either played Daemons, or Vampires, or got screwed.

I've cut your OP (a very well articulated, not rant-like at all OP I may add) down to the bits I feel I can best relate to and agree with. It's not that it's the most powerful Codex, it's just that unlike most others, there's no defining weakness. Every other Codex has some weakness or another, Dark Eldar are Fragile, Tau and IG suck in CC, Blood Angels are over-costed... the list goes on. But Space Wolves don't really suffer from this, they are good at range, close combat and close quarters and add in their extra high-quality (eg. Wolf Guard, TWC and Long Fangs) units and CHEAP COST to boot and they have little to no flaws. They really are the easiest pick up and play army.
They don't have a Mephiston or Swarmlord, they can't spam FNP or Furious Charge, they can't produce a large number of fast moving units and vehicles and they can't produce a stupid amount of firepower or tanks quite like the IG. But they are still so powerful that they can stand up to all of this and more. They aren't OTT like the Blood Angels Codex (not necessarily in game) but the Space Wolf armies really benefit from, as you've said, uber-cheap, uber-poweful troops and similarly cheap yet powerful elite units.

I think some of the reasoning behind it in terms of creation was that in order for the player to be able to effectively field 4 HQ's (as intended) and lots of expensive characters, that they still need to be able to afford (cheap) troops. However this meant that if the player went for the cheap HQ then they could get access to all these other under-costed non-HQ options with no down-side attached.

If they didn't have Razorbacks, Grey Hunters would play exactly like Grey Hunters should. Bombing in there, blasting the crap out of the enemy at close range then receiving the charge from the remnants, 2 special weapons and counter-charge suits this. But 2x CCW and for only 15pts makes even this under-costed. If the very heart of your army is dirt-cheap then the rest of it can easily fall into place.

It's as you said, they're not necessarily the 'best' army, it's just they don't have any real discernible flaws and now they are so, so common and so often similar to one another. Most competitive Space Wolf armies show a real lack of imagination, you only have to stroll into the army lists forum to see this and many players actively encouraging this (Jabbdo) which as you have said, really stagnates the game and Space Wolf armies in general.

As has been said, they really are the most powerful MeQ codex. It's not so much that they do everything better than other armies, it's just there's very little flaws to them particularly with their respective price. Now it also makes many Space Wolf players (the old-timers or non-competitive in particular) unjustly stigmatised and as you can probably tell, that really peeves me. I freakin' hate my own Codex! I'd rather have Codex CSM than this, I really would.

Well Said Redbeard, I think I've displayed my only feelings and support to your claim and subject.

Note 1: I still believe Mech IG to be the most competitive army build there is, but as a WHOLE I reckon SW's are more powerful.

Note 2: In my tactica I opened saying how Space Wolves struggle to accommodate or excel with ranged firepower due to limited access to heavy weapons (only Long Fangs, Razorbacks etc.) and since seeing the change to this usage of Space Wolves I still haven't changed it as it doesn't suit them and it is simple encourage of 'spam' or a lack of imagination which I won't endorse.

Note 3: For me, one of the worst things is the stigma being carried over from competitive play. I can understand people disliking Space Wolves competitively, but when the stigma is then attached to simply playing for fun, it's really spoiled it IMHO.

Nurglitch wrote:If players are defaulting to Space Wolves, it's because they don't get the advantages and disadvantages that Space Wolves offer, and the community doesn't either.

Because whatever weakness they have is easily compensated by how cheap they are.

I often run a 1,500 Sternguard list with Pedro Kantor...

If I switch to Space Wolves, my Tactical become Grey Hunter, my Sternguard become Wolf Guard and I take a 175ish Wolf Lord... Ironically, the 175 points wolf lord will be a much better CC beast than Pedro Kantor too.

What do I lose? Orbital Bombardment, Inspiring Presence (which doesn't matter since Space Wolves all already +1A due to extra CC) and some scoring units.

But you know what's crazy? I end up with around 120 free points to play with! This is with the 'same' list! So I can play around with some points here... maybe get myself some Thunder Wolf Cavalry or some Grey Hunter in a Razorback to make up for my lose of scoring units.

Tarkand:

You'd also lose Stubborn, Inspiring Presence doesn't require a Leadership test, and Orbital Bombardment is a pretty hefty loss. Not to mention the loss of scoring units without Pedro is...severe. I don't see how freeing up 120pts improves the list while losing all that.

Something I've noticed about units like Long Fangs is that they're the opposite of a Death Star, in that they fold like a house of cards. People say "Oh, they're cheap", but if I can kill a unit every turn, they're really expensive.

But failing the Counter-Attack leadership test doesn't give them a negative. They just become regular marines with different options. However, with their high LD they don't fail that often. It's like saying, "Here have something extra 3/4ths of the time for no additional cost."

If you measure strictly from tournament build lists that are out there these days, you are correct. The Space Wolves have some very nice toys at some very affordable prices.

However, I think we can all agree that the game isn't balanced, and if we weren't complaining about Space Wolves, it would be about something else...

I'm an old, long-time Space Wolf player and in my humble opinion the reason that people complain about Space Wolf armies is because there isn't a decent army comp scoring system to rate them correctly. It used to be back in 3rd edition that when you went to a tournament, you were graded on your army composition and asked a series of questions to see if your list was too powerful or not. This system worked "Ok" back in 3rd edition, because the slate was cleaned and everyone played from a 3rd edition book.

These days with 5th edition, you have codex books extending from 3rd edition all the way to last month. The problem that creates is that you can no longer use the same comp scoring sheet to judge every army. You actually need a different scoring sheet for just about every codex. Or at the very least, a few questions that would vary depending on the codex that was used...

Please don't see this as an attempt for me to defend my beloved Space Wolves. I freely admit that 15 Long Fang missile launchers that can split fire and cost just 420 points is broken. Although so are Death Rollers on ork Battlewagon spams, Dark Eldar armies with 30+ darklances, and "Leaf Blower" Imperial Guard lists. None of those builds are particular fun to play against if you don't have the tools in your army to deal with them...

So in order to keep people from bringing those lists, and encourage players to show up to tournaments with armies like Necrons, Witch Hunters, and Daemon Hunters, you need to do something to tone it down.... I think that Jervis and GW realize that, and it was the main reason behind the "Throne of Skulls" tournament packet. While it is a noble effort to try to equal the playing field, it is like trying to build a car with an adjustable wrench, when you really need a complete socket set.

Nurglitch wrote:Tarkand:

You'd also lose Stubborn, Inspiring Presence doesn't require a Leadership test, and Orbital Bombardment is a pretty hefty loss. Not to mention the loss of scoring units without Pedro is...severe. I don't see how freeing up 120pts improves the list while losing all that.

Something I've noticed about units like Long Fangs is that they're the opposite of a Death Star, in that they fold like a house of cards. People say "Oh, they're cheap", but if I can kill a unit every turn, they're really expensive.

Orbital Bombardment is a pretty poor ability which is extremely unreliable and requires Pedro and his accompanying squad not to move for one turn, far from a hefty lose. If I could take Pedro for 150 points without OB, I would every time.

Inspring Presence gives my guys within 12'' inch of Kantor an extra attack, which puts them at A2... which is equal to a run of the mill basic space wolves (who still cost less points btw). In short, inspiring presence - which only work on a limited range - makes my Marines equal to Space Wolf BEFORE you factor in counter attack, so you really can't compare both.

It's more about stubborn vs Counter-Attack... Stubborn is not always a good thing, they are time when you'd rather break then stay there and fight to the death. Not to mention that stubborn has the same flaw as Counter-Attack: It's a leadership roll, if you roll a 12, you're running anyway.

And what's better than not having a penalty when you LOSE CC? Winning CC because you have an extra attack.

The only tangible lost is the lost of a scoring unit... but this could easily be made up by splitting my Grey Hunter into 5 man squad with Razorback (instead of 10 man Tactical squad with Rhino) and the extra 120 points easily cover the upgrade cost. I end up with more scoring units this way (and a ton of las cannon spam too).

Nurglitch wrote:Tarkand:

You'd also lose Stubborn, Inspiring Presence doesn't require a Leadership test, and Orbital Bombardment is a pretty hefty loss. Not to mention the loss of scoring units without Pedro is...severe. I don't see how freeing up 120pts improves the list while losing all that.

Something I've noticed about units like Long Fangs is that they're the opposite of a Death Star, in that they fold like a house of cards. People say "Oh, they're cheap", but if I can kill a unit every turn, they're really expensive.

120 points gives you 8 Grey Hunters, a decent scoring unit (or 5 GH and a Rhino).
Agree that Long Fangs are Glass Cannons, just MEQs with big(ger) guns.

Redbeard wrote:I've tried to write this a few times now, and each time, it doesn't sound quite right. so, I'm just going to let it ramble if it must.

I've tried to compose a response and have had to start over a couple of times too. It's an odd subject. I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think the SW codex is going to damage 40k significantly.

In my small, old group we had one SW player. When the new codex was out we were happy he could play a current list and get away from using the vanilla dex for his wolves. No one else picked up the wolves because we weren't really interested and didn't want to have SW playing against SW or really any battle using the same codex on both sides of the table. I could beat the new wolves with my old BA and even occasionally with Tau, but got crushed when I used the new nids - and he never used Jaws. We didn't look at the wolves being generally overpowered so much as they were just the perfect counter to the nids.

Like other folks I've read all the blog blather about tiers and competitive armies and how SW are on top. I just haven't seen it all that much first hand. I've played against SW once in the three tourneys I've played in since the codex came out. Maybe I've just gotten lucky.

In any case I think the SW Effect, to the extent is really is a problem, will be self-correcting for these reasons:

1. I don't think SW players will want to play against other SW players all the time. I think they'd like to have a mix of diverse opponents just like everyone else. I think they will adopt different armies instead of just dropping out.

2. Stigma. At some point people will tire of facing wolves all the time and the SW players will get a reputation for being beardy gits. Don't most people roll their eyes at a blue/green/grey SW army already?

This is just speculation, but I know these are the reasons I've largely stopped playing my BA for the time being.

Wolflord Patrick wrote:These days with 5th edition, you have codex books extending from 3rd edition all the way to last month. The problem that creates is that you can no longer use the same comp scoring sheet to judge every army. You actually need a different scoring sheet for just about every codex. Or at the very least, a few questions that would vary depending on the codex that was used...

Space Wolves compare very favorably to some Codex who are also 5th edition.

Patience.

Mech IG was ridiculous when it came out, and still is. The longfang spam as a cheap unit was needed to counter mech IG's dominance. Dark Eldar are now something of a hard counter to Space Wolves.

In the game of Rock paper scissors...


Space Wolves = Rock
Mech IG = Scissors
Dark Eldar = Paper

36" splinter cannons that can pour out such a volume of fire that longfangs are evaporated before getting a chance to fire. On the flip side the vehices are weak and I still don't know how to answer Guard.

Tarkand wrote:

Wolflord Patrick wrote:These days with 5th edition, you have codex books extending from 3rd edition all the way to last month. The problem that creates is that you can no longer use the same comp scoring sheet to judge every army. You actually need a different scoring sheet for just about every codex. Or at the very least, a few questions that would vary depending on the codex that was used...

Space Wolves compare very favorably to some Codex who are also 5th edition.

Oh, I agree. Which is why I think there should be comp scoring sheets made for each, individual codex. (Or at least a variance of questions for a specific codex.)

Is it bad that I am now tooling around a World Eater list using the Space Wolf codex because I can actually have the theme force I want?

Nurglitch wrote:I disagree. If Space Wolves seem over-whelming, it's because people haven't put their backs into beating them yet.

You're missing the point. It's not that Space Wolves cannot be beat - I said as much in the original post. It's that they're omnipresent, and present hard counters to other lists.

In particular I think that the Space Wolves have weaknesses that people used to playing Space Marines are not inclined to exploit.

Take Counter-Attack, for example. The Space Wolves have to pass a Leadership Test first. Actually, the Space Wolves need to be charged first. I've noticed that Space Marines tend to be more effective if they stay out of combat (at least those they can't win easily over a game turn) and so you want to charge them to neuter their shooting. With Space Wolves you want to shoot them.

Okay, so they need to pass a Ld test in order to benefit from their -free- upgrade ability. Big deal, Ld tests aren't hard to pass, and even if they fail it, they get double the attacks that a vanilla marine gets. It wasn't like they paid any points to have counterattack, so on the turns that it doesn't work, oh no, they're just fighting an even battle. I'm not sure that having a 28% chance to lose a free upgrade is a weakness. Perhaps this is more adequately expressed as they get a 72% chance of getting a free extra attack. (And, if you attach a wolfguard, this percent jumps to 83%.

So, your point about shooting them instead... sounds good, but there are few units out there that can outshoot any marines in a close-range battle, especially marines in cover. Some specialist units come to mind, as do things like plague marines, but you have to assume the space wolf player has a brain too. His guys have 2 attacks each. If you want to shoot him, he wants to assault you.

Long Fangs, well, I've talked enough about the weaknesses of Long Fangs. Needless to say I'm still surprised that they're considered a threat when so much can drop in and destroy six Space Marines so easily.

Well, first, if Long Fangs have a weakness, it is a weakness shared by most other heavy weapon specialists. I mean, Devastators can buy ablative wounds, but short of buffing the squad with an upgraded sgt and a handful of men (drastically increasing the cost of the unit), you're still a unit that assault specialists can knock out easily. Sure, there are ways to kill them, but these aren't weaknesses unique to Long Fangs, they're generic weaknesses. And, as Long Fangs are cheaper than their equivalent number in most armies, the Wolf player has more resources to dedicate to preventing you from going after these weaknesses. Again, it's not that they can't be neutralized, it's that neutralizing them has to consider the rest of the force.

So you're dropping in to destroy them, you're exposed to them for at least one turn, and that's an average of 10 hits somewhere. Then, you're hoping that you don't mishap, that your opponent hasn't protected them with some sort of castling deployment...

Razorbacks are also a source of consternation for me, not because they're some terrible scourge, but because people are afraid of lots of AV11 vehicles. Heavy Bolters can take them down! Maybe it's just because I play Chaos Space Marines who can take Autocannons out the yin-yang region, but I just don't see them as a threat commensurate with their points value.

I tend to agree about the razorbacks being a poor approach, but it's hard to argue with the results I've seen achieved with them.

Likewise Rune Priests are just as useless as Space Marine Librarians in close combat, and have less useful psychic powers. While they have some nice shooting attacks, you can get similar firepower for cheaper elsewhere in the list, and if you take them, then you can't take the other, less easily killed characters. Maxing out on HQ is nice, but even armies where you can only take two, it's often wiser to just take one and devote the points to more of the units that actually do work.

The strength of a priest/librarian isn't mean to be combat, and you hide them in squads to prevent them from dying. The strength of the priest/librarian is as a support character, providing utility and defense. I don't know how you can think that the Rune Priest has weaker powers though. Jaws is an unbelievably good hard counter. It tackles things that would otherwise cause massive problems for an army. It can snipe models, which allows the wolves to neutralize things like Powerklaw nobs, Forcefield Meks, or Painboyz in an ork army. It can just zap six wound monstrous creatures in a Nid army. No save, no Eternal Warrior, just poof. Then there is the average 3.5 autocannon shots which is a solid all-around power, and then a couple others if you need them. Who has a better selection? Vanilla Marines have Null Zone, another excellent Hard Counter, but I don't think that it has the same game-breaking impact, even against Chaos Daemons, that Jaws has against orks or nids. I can accept the argument that the Rune Priest's powers are equally as good as other armies, but not worse. So then you come to their other utility, psychic defense, and here, again, they're just outright better. Stopping a power on a 4+ is better than having to beat your opponent in a roll-off.

If players are defaulting to Space Wolves, it's because they don't get the advantages and disadvantages that Space Wolves offer, and the community doesn't either.

I disagree. I think that players are defaulting towards Space Wolves precisely because they do get the advantages and disadvantages that Wolves offer. In the current metagame, I see the Wolves advantages trumping those of the other armies. You have, essentially, a shooty army with a high first-strike capability, the ability to take a charge very well, and the ability to field a top-class deathstar, if that's your thing.

I picked up Space Wolves about 6 months after they came out, and have played them until this month, when I started using Blood Angels. I've never had to deal with any sort of stigma for playing Wolves, and I think its strange that there is one.

I lose plenty with my Wolves, though, it could always be that I'm bad at the game, though, It could be my list. I only ever take one unit of Long Fangs, or one Rune Priest (who usually never shoots because he just sits in a LR to be an anti-psyker bubble against my lash spamming friend), though usually I prefer two MM/HF land Speeders. The base list has 4 Razorbacks, which I'm not sure qualifies as "spam."

I dunno. At 2000 points, would you consider this a list that deserves stigma?

Space Wolves
Ragnar's Great Comapny

HQ:
Ragnar Blackmane

Wolf Priest
-Wolf Tooth Necklace
-Wolf Tail Talisman
-Melta-Bomb

Elites:
Wolf Guard Pack
-4x Models
-4x Frost Blades
-4x Melta Bombs

Troops:
Grey Hunters Pack
-5x Models
-Meltagun
-Wolf Banner

Razorback
-T-L Lascannon
-Storm Bolter

Grey Hunters Pack
-5x Models
-Meltagun
-Wolf Banner

Razorback
-T-L Lascannon
-Storm Bolter

Grey Hunters Pack
-5x Models
-Flamer
-Wolf Banner

Razorback
-T-L Assault Cannon

Grey Hunters Pack
-5x Models
-Flamer
-Wolf Banner

Razorback
-T-L Assault Cannon

Blood Claws Pack
-10x Models
-Flamer

Fast Attack:

Heavy Support:
Land Raider Crusader
-Extra Armor
-Multi-Melta

Long Fangs Pack
-6x Models
-5x Missile Launchers
-Power Weapon

Razorback
-TL Plasmagun+Lascannon

I don;t like to step on peoples toes, so would you be pissed off at this list if you faced it at a tourney?

Dashofpepper wrote:Patience.

Mech IG was ridiculous when it came out, and still is. The longfang spam as a cheap unit was needed to counter mech IG's dominance. Dark Eldar are now something of a hard counter to Space Wolves.

In the game of Rock paper scissors...


Space Wolves = Rock
Mech IG = Scissors
Dark Eldar = Paper

36" splinter cannons that can pour out such a volume of fire that longfangs are evaporated before getting a chance to fire. On the flip side the vehices are weak and I still don't know how to answer Guard.

I'm sure you've tested this, but is that possible both going first or second, or do you need the first shots? I haven't seen anyone play the new Dark Eldar yet (it's still early) but as you said their vehicles are weak, and seem like they'd be easy targets for the missile spam.


And perhaps you're right, and time will move on (or, at the least, everyone else will get upgrades to be on the same level). But hoping for the future isn't exactly the best way to want to keep participating in the present. Like I said, five years ago, even small tournament would have a vast number of different armies and approaches, and it wasn't a three-pony race with rocks and scissors. As they've consolidated all the sub-lists together into the larger 'pick whatever you want' codex styles, the more the game has focused on only the best elements. A good example of this is that, before, if you wanted scoring plague marines, you didn't get obliterators, or Slaanesh HQs.

Arschbombe wrote:
1. I don't think SW players will want to play against other SW players all the time. I think they'd like to have a mix of diverse opponents just like everyone else. I think they will adopt different armies instead of just dropping out.

2. Stigma. At some point people will tire of facing wolves all the time and the SW players will get a reputation for being beardy gits. Don't most people roll their eyes at a blue/green/grey SW army already?

I guess this really depends on the nature of your gaming circle. If it's a small circle where people mostly play for fun, I can agree. But if it's a competitive circle, where winning actually matters (say, a tournament), people aren't going to drop a winning army because it wins too much. Just the opposite, people will adopt the winning army because it wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Commander Endova wrote:I picked up Space Wolves about 6 months after they came out, and have played them until this month, when I started using Blood Angels. I've never had to deal with any sort of stigma for playing Wolves, and I think its strange that there is one.

I lose plenty with my Wolves, though, it could always be that I'm bad at the game, though, It could be my list. I only ever take one unit of Long Fangs, or one Rune Priest (who usually never shoots because he just sits in a LR to be an anti-psyker bubble against my lash spamming friend), though usually I prefer two MM/HF land Speeders. The base list has 4 Razorbacks, which I'm not sure qualifies as "spam."

I dunno. At 2000 points, would you consider this a list that deserves stigma?
...

I don;t like to step on peoples toes, so would you be pissed off at this list if you faced it at a tourney?

Not at all, but this isn't the sort of list that you see at tournaments.

Here's the tournament wolf list base:

6 long fangs, missiles (possibly a lascannon or two)
6 long fangs, missiles (possibly a lascannon or two)
6 long fangs, missiles (possibly a lascannon or two)
1+ Rune priest w/ Jaws, living lightning, murderous hurricane in various combinations
2+ Grey hunters w/ some transport (different based on approach)
1+ Wolf Guard (usually just squad leaders w/ combi weapons to compliment the grey hunters)

From there, people either go deathstar, with a big unit of thunderwolves, + 1/2 thunderwolf lords, or loganwing, which replaces the grey hunters with more wolf guard, and features cyclone missiles, or more-mech, with extra las/plas razorbacks for all units. Sometimes, scouts are added to handle backfield threats.

At least, that's my experience.

I have been playing 40k for 7 years now, going from late third through today.

I have to say that the game is much better balanced and diverse then it ever was, from a competitive stand point, and I think that fact really upsets people's understanding of competitive play in this current edition, because it is increasingly harder to come up with a list that can handle all comers, and you throw in the utility knife of the Space Wolf codex, and you can easily have the perception that the codex having an unfair advantage.

I play Blood Angels, in an area that has a tournament at a different store every week almost, and a large variety of players. Some stores I go to, the majority of the players are space wolves, among our local group, Space Wolves have much less impact, because we have learned how to beat them enough, that their impact has considerably lessened.

Part of the way to counter the "Space Wolf Effect" is to just take into consideration their almost "default" tactics. You know that you will be probably facing a Space Wolf army with Long Fangs and a Rune Priest eventually, so it is easy to build hard counters into your own list. Target Priority against them becomes fairly easy. I know I limit their firepower alot, just by causing a single casualty to a long fang squad, as they would almost rather take the sergent then anything else, that dilutes their firepower alot because they can't spread their firepower around like they would like to. Rune Priests are generally not deployed far forward, so you can actually take advantage of their 24" range and hit them on a flank.

It's all about exploiting the advantages of your army against theirs.

Orks can present a Kan wall with a crap ton of shooting and a KFF, or throw a bunch of AV 14 Battle Wagons that missle launchers struggle against. You concentrate firepower on Long Fangs, and take the bet of your assault versus their assault, chances are you are winning that contest.

IG can laydown their own ridiculous amount of fire power, having enough shots to at the very least cause Long Fangs to flee whilst you are blowing up thier transports and delaying their army.

Blood Angels (the army I play) have more access to str. 10 power weapons then most, which makes Thunderwolves cry. I can deepstrike a smoked Land Raider in front of long fangs and laugh at them. And bait their Grey Hunters to try and pop me with their meltas. Even if they kill the tank, the unit I have inside will murder them. Plus BA can put out better quality of shots on more mobile platforms then Long Fangs can, whilst being more survivable with lots of FNP.

Standard Marines can get the drop on Space Wolves as well, with Iron Clad Dreadnoughts, Dakka Dreads killing tanks, and Thunderfire Cannons heaping wounds one Long Fangs and drawing fire. Marines still have cheap Thunderhammer Storm Shields, that should win combats with Null Zone up against most SW assault elements (but that comes down to piling units on top of other units)

As Dash said, Dark Eldar, will be the Space Wolves undoing. You put at least 5 Venoms on the table, and long fangs will not last long. Combine that with access to multiple blasters, Dark Lances, and Heat Lances, and the DE can, and will, limit the amount of shooting coming back at them. Especially with their abilities to ensure the first turn.

I have seen massive genestealers just murder space wolves, even when JOTWW kills a couple of MCs. I think the Trygon gets overlooked a lot in this equation, as a MC that can deepstrike on top of a long fang squad, shoot it up, and be almost immune to JOTWW. Getting FNP on an MC is also funny in the Long fang equation. Your assault units can handle grey hunters as long as you can lock down the dependency they have in their firepower.

Space Wolves are an easy codex to pick up and play and do well with. No one is arguing that. But a good player with any other fifth edition codex, can and will successfully challenge them. The game is not boring to me for two reasons. I am always changing my list, which is one thing 5th edition allows you to do more then any other eddition, and Space Wolves fell a little out of favor as soon as people where hard countering them. There are still great Space Wolf players in my area, hell, my roommate is a 4 consequetive RTT winner with them, but they are not a prevailing army. Foot Eldar thrive in our area and has successfully challenge Space Wolves, because the player know the SW game. I know I will have a good game when I see a Space Wolves player, but I never feel like they have an advantage over me. Not anymore.

I agree. The Space Marines codex has now been grossly invalidated by these new and far superior marine codexes, hence the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality.

I agree with many others here, the SW book seems to have taken a lot out of the game. It was billed as a small army of heavy hitters and characters with little in the way of long range firepower. Turns out they can field just as many, if not more dudes, as any other marine army, just be more capable model for model, with tremendously capable long range firepower, sporting killier characters with probably the best psychic potential in the game, along with some of the most atrocious fluff background ever to be seen. Every time I look at my CSM's, I realize I could just run it as a C:SW army and the only models I'd have to change are my (6) Oblits for (18) Long Fangs, and I'd end up having an extra 120 or so points to work with while gaining Counterattack and ATSKNF and much greater long range firepower. SW's are the primary reason I tend not to play my CSM's as much anymore, because they simply do the exact same thing but far better but I can't bring myself to use the SW rules for them because it really wouldn't feel right at all.

The army wide Counterattack/Acute Senses that, at least from what I see when I look at the army list, was not accounted for in their costs in any way, coupled with heavily reduced or freebie upgrades on many units (e.g. GH special weapons, WG powerfists and the like) simply make the army far more capable than it should be. Additionally, while it lacks the more esoteric units that C:SM has, it has some of its own (some of which intentionally thumb their nose at what many people consider to be the thrust of certain game mechanics like Lone Wolves and KP's), and the core of the SW army is simply far more capable, for *FEWER* points in many cases.

Much has been made of SW's having to pass an Ld test to make use of Counterattack, which requires them to be charged. First, even at Ld8 assuming no squad leader, they are passing almost 75% of the time, and at Ld9 they are passing that about 83% of the time. Additionally, this ability means that the SW player can muck up or just not really have to make a hard decision in many situations between shooting and CC, as even against other marine units they are identically geared so as not to be any worse, and they can take a charge and typically hit back harder than whatever charged them. It's just too much insurance against mucking up or an enemy gaining the upper hand as they will face just as much pain from charging as being charged, and often just as much firepower as any other SM equivalent unit. This is particularly true with Grey Hunters (the core of the army) and WG Terminators. It's also not like they are exactly paying for this ability looking at their unit and upgrade costs.

I also am at a loss as to *why* Space Wolves needed such capable marines, man for man, relative to everyone else? It's very difficult to understand how they are so much more capable than any other genetically engineered super soldier whose entire lives are dedicated to war and training 22 hours a day but don't spend time drinking and carousing?


If GH's were 18pts apiece instead of 15, and Long Fang 5x missile squads were 170 instead of 140, and some of the upgrades were more in line with other books, SW's wouldn't be a problem (on average it'd cut 150-220 or so points out of a 2k SW list, so 1 less GH squad or Long Fang unit) as they'd be paying the points for their powerful abilities and actually be at a rough sort of parity with other MEQ armies. As is, unless one wants specific units only available to one army, if looking at making a competitive MEQ army, there's little reason to go with anything but SW's and maybe BA's.

As Dash said, Dark Eldar, will be the Space Wolves undoing. You put at least 5 Venoms on the table, and long fangs will not last long.

5 Venoms each sporting two Splinter Cannons will, on average, kill off one long fang squad, assuming the DE go first and get to shoot everything. 3 5x missile Long Fangs will on average *destroy* at least 3 of those Venoms and likely inflict enough destroyed/immobilized/stunned results to incapacitate all of them.

Heh, I'm still holding on to my vanilla SM, which are all painted as Crimson Fists.

But I have to say it's more and more difficult to not just say 'They're Blood Fist!' or 'They are Crimson Fangs!' or somesuch and make a list using one of the Codex: Space Marine +1.

Like others who have posted, I am a big fan of SW fluff and was very excited when I heard they were coming out. After dithering with "Witch Hunters" for a while, I thought this would be the release that got me excited about 40k again. Well, it did get me excited about 40k again--but I still don't have a SW army. I've picked up and painted models since the release, inlcuding some third party TWs, but have no intention of writing a list for much less playing SW anytime soon. The stigma that Arschbombe mentioned has been around almost since release.