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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I am talking bout the mind control. there is no cannon proof for that tau, vespid or anybody is being controlled, but it is very heavily implied.

Like much Tau info, it is from an Imperial source and is intended for Imperial readers.

I hate that arguement.

That doesn't make it an invalid argument.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You're basically saying "well it's written in English so it must have been by humans".

No, I'm not. You can read the same words in Japanese in the Japanese version of the codex. By your logic, all the Tau army is made by the IoM because it is described in English in the English codex.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not all the lore is ment to be from an Imperial Bias. Much of it is simply the narrator like you would find in any book.

Much of the lore is from an Imperial viewpoint.

Who is "the narrator" in this case?

A Tau? -- Why would they make such a claim?
Vespids? -- Not if they are actually being mind-controlled.
Tau allies? -- Why would they?
Tau's enemies? -- Could be.

For what it is worth, the fluff says "no evidence of this claim has been discovered".

So should we consider that all the codexes are from imperial perspective?


There has to be somethings in the codexes talking about the great deeds said race did, I doubt an enemy would describe such events.

I don't own a codex, yet, so I wouldn't know.

Perhaps an inside man put in that comment?
It just seems irritating to see everything from one person's view point, it just makes it seem very limited. That is unless we're going by the winner's rule. (History is written by the winners). which in itself could mean something

It's not from anyones viewpoint, at least not that extract. If it was from the Imperial point of view you can bet that it would be going a lot farther than just insinuating such things. All this source shows is that the narrator is reffering to existing rumours.

Xenology however, is written from an obvious imperial standpoint.

Its writen by GW to make people argue about it.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:So should we consider that all the codexes are from imperial perspective?


There has to be somethings in the codexes talking about the great deeds said race did, I doubt an enemy would describe such events.

I don't own a codex, yet, so I wouldn't know.

Perhaps an inside man put in that comment?
It just seems irritating to see everything from one person's view point, it just makes it seem very limited. That is unless we're going by the winner's rule. (History is written by the winners). which in itself could mean something

The style varies between codexes.

The Tau codex is written from several viewpoints, IoM, Tau, and unidentified narrator.

The Tyranid viewpoint is entirely written from a narrative viewpoint.




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Emperors Faithful wrote:It's not from anyones viewpoint, at least not that extract. If it was from the Imperial point of view you can bet that it would be going a lot farther than just insinuating such things. All this source shows is that the narrator is reffering to existing rumours.

Xenology however, is written from an obvious imperial standpoint.

The narrator is referring to rumours, however those rumours must have come from somewhere, so the issue is not resolved, it is deferred. It is like the theory of how life got started on Earth -- it came from spores in space. Okay, how did the life spores get started in space?

Xenology is certainly written from an Imperial viewpoint, but you have to consider it is a leaked document describing the activities of a highly dubious, possibly deranged investigator who would have got prosecuted if he had survived.

The GW attitude to fluff is that it is a mixture of rumour, history, lies, myth, propaganda and legend.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Thing is The Vespid just joined up for the cause on day 1, no questions asked, nothing wanted in return. Pretty much the perfect allies. Apparently the theory going around is The Etherals are part insectoid.

I think I've developed a theory. I think the Etherals may have inadvertently discovered a race that by happenstance is affected by their magic pixie dust.
Serendipity? Yes, but that's par for the course for The Tau.

They didn't sign up on day one. The Vespid homeworld was visited by water caste, trade was opened and the Tau helped them further develop their crystal-based technology.

My thoughts:
Since they are an insectoid race and probably have a sort of hive society, they're natural social infrastructure more closely resembles "the greater good" ideals than other alien cultures that have been contacted. If the tyranids weren't so hungry, maybe they'd sign on too.

Being an insect race they already have a predisposition toward a "hive-mind" or "greater good" ideal anyway; as long as they can communicate with the Tau i assume the Vespid would join of their own accord

Kilkrazy wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I am talking bout the mind control. there is no cannon proof for that tau, vespid or anybody is being controlled, but it is very heavily implied.

Like much Tau info, it is from an Imperial source and is intended for Imperial readers.

I hate that arguement.

That doesn't make it an invalid argument.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You're basically saying "well it's written in English so it must have been by humans".

No, I'm not. You can read the same words in Japanese in the Japanese version of the codex. By your logic, all the Tau army is made by the IoM because it is described in English in the English codex.

NO, by YOUR logic the Tau army is made by the IoM because it is described in English in the English codex. You see, I accused you of that line of thinking and then somehow you got confused and thought you said that. It's ok, it happens - except that it doesn't.


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blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:So should we consider that all the codexes are from imperial perspective?


There has to be somethings in the codexes talking about the great deeds said race did, I doubt an enemy would describe such events.

I don't own a codex, yet, so I wouldn't know.

Perhaps an inside man put in that comment?
It just seems irritating to see everything from one person's view point, it just makes it seem very limited. That is unless we're going by the winner's rule. (History is written by the winners). which in itself could mean something

Emperors Faithful wrote:It's not from anyones viewpoint, at least not that extract. If it was from the Imperial point of view you can bet that it would be going a lot farther than just insinuating such things. All this source shows is that the narrator is reffering to existing rumours.

Xenology however, is written from an obvious imperial standpoint.

Ledabot wrote:Its writen by GW to make people argue about it.

Exactly its written from The Narrators POV. It's called a Third-Person Narrative for god's sake.

Whatever the language of the book, it clearly is written from several different viewpoints, as I said earlier.

Kilkrazy wrote:Whatever the language of the book, it clearly is written from several different viewpoints, as I said earlier.

That's fine. The fiction is definately written from many points of view - including 3rd person. My point is some people disregard anything bad the Tau may have done ever because the codex is written in a human language which is ridiculous because what else could it be written in? It a lazy style of argument I can't stand. I'm not saying you do it btw but some do.

I would just say, keeping on topic, that mind control appears to be in synch with the whole Ethereals' mind control abilities in general. I noticed this change between the first and second codices that had the latter codex a bit darker and more communistic in approach.

Other sources have provided support for the mind control approach, such as 'Xenology' where an ethereal is picked apart by an inquisitor. He finds a diamond shaped organ in the ethereal's head that he finds oddly similair to 'pheremone glands used among terran invertebrates' he connects this with the tau's extremely well developed and sensitive olfactory organs in order to speculate that this is at least a form of communication if not a way that the 'ethereal asserts a measure of control over lesser castes?'

the tau is covered in pages 14-19 with the ultimate report being on pg 19

Yes, they definately control the other Tau. Question is do they laso assert some sort of insidious control over the Vespid? Are Vespid volunteers or did they get volunteered?

The Etherals had all the Tau read the Codex! Its all lies!

im just pointing out that it fits with their M.O. to exert control over less that willing subjects. What I mean by this is that the Tau never chose and still dont know as a public of the fact that ethereals do control them. Explains why O'Shovah is so pissed... and all that business with him happened right after the ethereals died.

I do have to say that I would pose another question, this one rather unbiased. What about the other subjugated races? Is there evidence that the Ethereals have used their control to subjugate the Kroot? We have the nice story of the grateful kroot, but is there anything that might suggest something like that? Or maybe even human defectors?

Ah yes, Xenology, where we have the infamous Tau with feet rather than Tau with hooves...

Some people say things like "The Tau are using he Kroot" but in fact The Kroot are using The Tau. They are volunteers and try to hid the fact that they ally with other species as well.

Ethereals definitely don't exert the same level of control over Kroot. The codex makes it clear that the Kroot are still independent minded, and will even fight as mercenaries for other factions, but of course they don't let the Ethereals know they're doing this. The way I see it is that the Kroot simply want to fight and get paid doing it. If their Tau allies don't provide them enough opportunities to do so, they'll look elsehwere.

good points on the kroot.
I retract that question...

UrbanCowboy wrote:good points on the kroot.
I retract that question...

No need to retract it as you say. I find The Kroot interesting as well. Wouldn't mind having an all Kroot army. It's like Last of the Mohicans Natives in space!

You do realise that the Ethereal control of other Tau is also simply the insinuations of a (slightly) deranged inquisitor? It wasn't even fully backed up the research.

I'm eager to see if the Kroot get fleshed out more in the next Tau codex with more units. They are pretty cool, but they're not much more than cannon fodder at present.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:You do realise that the Ethereal control of other Tau is also simply the insinuations of a (slightly) deranged inquisitor? It wasn't even fully backed up the research.

We do know that the Ethereals showed up out of nowhere and united the warring castes in virtually an instant. Now that clearly raises some suspicions.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Whatever the language of the book, it clearly is written from several different viewpoints, as I said earlier.

That's fine. The fiction is definately written from many points of view - including 3rd person. My point is some people disregard anything bad the Tau may have done ever because the codex is written in a human language which is ridiculous because what else could it be written in? It a lazy style of argument I can't stand. I'm not saying you do it btw but some do.

Some people do this, some people do that.

Why not stick to the facts?

If we're going to start judging fluff on the language it is written in, we have to disregard everything in the whole game, as none of it is in Low or High Gothic, Eldar, Orkish or any of the languages spoken in 40K.

The core point is that there isn't anything in the fluff which suggests that the Tau are not as idealistic as Tau H8ters say they aren't because they don't like the idea.

Maurin wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:You do realise that the Ethereal control of other Tau is also simply the insinuations of a (slightly) deranged inquisitor? It wasn't even fully backed up the research.

We do know that the Ethereals showed up out of nowhere and united the warring castes in virtually an instant. Now that clearly raises some suspicions.

Spreading the message of love and peace, man, the message of love and peace!

Make love not war.



Personally I believe the Ethereal's are all about the mind-controlling/brain washing/some other form of power. I struggle to see much other reason behind some of the other things they accomplish and it is suitably pessimistic for me to approve...

Maurin wrote:I'm eager to see if the Kroot get fleshed out more in the next Tau codex with more units. They are pretty cool, but they're not much more than cannon fodder at present.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:You do realise that the Ethereal control of other Tau is also simply the insinuations of a (slightly) deranged inquisitor? It wasn't even fully backed up the research.

We do know that the Ethereals showed up out of nowhere and united the warring castes in virtually an instant. Now that clearly raises some suspicions.

Exactly, The Tau were very warlike and fighting each other (like humans) until the Etherals came out of no where and united them. Since then no Tau has disagreed on anything and everything is peachy like a switch was flipped. I think its fair to say the cannon is The Etherals control the Tau.


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Kilkrazy wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Whatever the language of the book, it clearly is written from several different viewpoints, as I said earlier.

That's fine. The fiction is definately written from many points of view - including 3rd person. My point is some people disregard anything bad the Tau may have done ever because the codex is written in a human language which is ridiculous because what else could it be written in? It a lazy style of argument I can't stand. I'm not saying you do it btw but some do.

Some people do this, some people do that.

Why not stick to the facts?

If we're going to start judging fluff on the language it is written in, we have to disregard everything in the whole game, as none of it is in Low or High Gothic, Eldar, Orkish or any of the languages spoken in 40K.

The core point is that there isn't anything in the fluff which suggests that the Tau are not as idealistic as Tau H8ters say they aren't because they don't like the idea.

Like Said before there is and there isn't. GW has found a way to have their cake and eat it too.
I want to read Deathwatch though apparently its got some dirt on the Tau.

While you're reading that one, make sure to read some of the books that put the Tau in a good light.

Just for balance.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Maurin wrote:I'm eager to see if the Kroot get fleshed out more in the next Tau codex with more units. They are pretty cool, but they're not much more than cannon fodder at present.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:You do realise that the Ethereal control of other Tau is also simply the insinuations of a (slightly) deranged inquisitor? It wasn't even fully backed up the research.

We do know that the Ethereals showed up out of nowhere and united the warring castes in virtually an instant. Now that clearly raises some suspicions.

Exactly, The Tau were very warlike and fighting each other (like humans) until the Etherals came out of no where and united them. Since then no Tau has disagreed on anything and everything is peachy like a switch was flipped. I think its fair to say the cannon is The Etherals control the Tau.

Not to sound like a dick or anything, Kami, but that's a pretty arrogant claim to say that Ethereals controling the Tau is accepted as solid cannon. There is absolutely nothing that provides damning and conclusive proof, and only barely enough to justify conjecture on the issue. Which is exactly what makes it (and by extension GW ) so clever.

The information only suggests that they can. It doen't say th Tau society "needs" ethereals to mind control other Tau. If te ethereals can leave tau for prolonged periods (as they do, especiall with FW) without them all leaving, it appears the Tau are happy to support the greater good by choice. If so the ethereal being able to control has very little importance.

The Tau do have disagreements, thats why they have a council (consisting of ethereals and normal Tau), they just have a better way of sorting them out.

I have always thought the Ethereals' power is like a kind of super-charisma, which makes the other castes less quarrelsome in their presence and more likely to go along with their ideas. It is probably backed by a psi power or a pheremone which makes the Tau more suggestable.

In much the same way that the Emporer used his massive charisma and psi power to unify all of Humaniti for the Great Crusade.

Once the huge benefits of the system were demonstrated by performance, the Tau and their allies would naturally be more likely to keep sustaining it.

No matter how charismatic someone is there will alwyas be dissent. The Emperor, charimatic though he may be mostly created his empire through the barrel of a gun. Even after, obviously he had to deal with some rebellions - that Horus one for example.

Like I said before Tau used to be a lot like Humans constantly warring with each other then suddenly one day everything was fine. Nobody hurt anybody and everyone agreed on everything.