Kilkrazy wrote:In much the same way that the Emporer used his massive charisma and psi power to unify all of Humaniti for the Great Crusade.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:No matter how charismatic someone is there will alwyas be dissent. The Emperor, charimatic though he may be mostly created his empire through the barrel of a gun. Even after, obviously he had to deal with some rebellions - that Horus one for example.

Like I said before Tau used to be a lot like Humans constantly warring with each other then suddenly one day everything was fine. Nobody hurt anybody and everyone agreed on everything.

Kilkrazy wrote:If while dead he can broadcast a beacon across the entire galaxy, it may have been possible when he was alive.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No matter how charismatic someone is there will alwyas be dissent. The Emperor, charimatic though he may be mostly created his empire through the barrel of a gun. Even after, obviously he had to deal with some rebellions - that Horus one for example.

Like I said before Tau used to be a lot like Humans constantly warring with each other then suddenly one day everything was fine. Nobody hurt anybody and everyone agreed on everything.

Did you see the movie "Bowling for Columbine" by Michael Moore? Remember the Canadian and US city facing each other across the lake, the Canadian one peaceful with only one murder committed some years ago by a US-American, the US-city full of crime and violence?

Massacring each other is so ... natural. So obviously the Canadians are under the pheromonic control of Premier Stephen Harper and the political ruling class

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:No matter how charismatic someone is there will alwyas be dissent. The Emperor, charimatic though he may be mostly created his empire through the barrel of a gun. Even after, obviously he had to deal with some rebellions - that Horus one for example.

Like I said before Tau used to be a lot like Humans constantly warring with each other then suddenly one day everything was fine. Nobody hurt anybody and everyone agreed on everything.

Did you see the movie "Bowling for Columbine" by Michael Moore? Remember the Canadian and US city facing each other across the lake, the Canadian one peaceful with only one murder committed some years ago by a US-American, the US-city full of crime and violence?

Massacring each other is so ... natural. So obviously the Canadians are under the pheromonic control of Premier Stephen Harper and the political ruling class

4M2A wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No matter how charismatic someone is there will alwyas be dissent. The Emperor, charimatic though he may be mostly created his empire through the barrel of a gun. Even after, obviously he had to deal with some rebellions - that Horus one for example.

Like I said before Tau used to be a lot like Humans constantly warring with each other then suddenly one day everything was fine. Nobody hurt anybody and everyone agreed on everything.

We don't know what Tau used to be like. Aside from them having a big war very little is known. Humans may have trouble following a charismatic leader but Tau could be entirely different. Lots of people try to compare them to humans, while they have similarities they also have big differences. The biggest is probably their ability to focus as race on one aim.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:...you don't need to bet. It expressly says so.

Actually a lot is known. Please read the codexes

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Basically, are the Tau a "The ends justify the means" race? If they are, then they are just like ever other race in 40K but with cleaner equipment.
If not, then they really have carved out their own niche. Quite an idealistic one at that.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

Kilkrazy wrote:The IoM fluff, though, paints the Tau is being "not as good as they would like you to think" rather than outright evil, which raises questions.

Also, there is no disputing the fact that the Tau have got a lot of allies fighting for them -- Nicassar, Kroot, Tarellians, Humans, Vespids and Demiurgs -- it seems unlikely that all of these could be mind-controlled, or kept in the Federal armed forces by threat of forceful conquest. It just makes more common sense that they are genuine allies (if only of convenience).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's a big difference between the conceptual process and the work of fiction that ensues afterwards. If you could see the brain-storming process of nearly any Book, TV show or Movie it is quite different from the tale that is told afterwards.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The IoM fluff, though, paints the Tau is being "not as good as they would like you to think" rather than outright evil, which raises questions.

You mean fluff from an Imperial point or view, or fluff that supports (in some way) the Imperial side? The first is a lot more biased and damning, yet also unreliable. The second is more removed, less biased, more reliable, but also less damning of the Tau.

Also, there is no disputing the fact that the Tau have got a lot of allies fighting for them -- Nicassar, Kroot, Tarellians, Humans, Vespids and Demiurgs -- it seems unlikely that all of these could be mind-controlled, or kept in the Federal armed forces by threat of forceful conquest. It just makes more common sense that they are genuine allies (if only of convenience).

Kilkrazy wrote:The Tau being expansionist, attempt to induce human planets to join them -- whether this follows a process of trade and negotiation or outright military conquest depends largely on your personal view of the Tau.

As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return.

Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.

Kilkrazy wrote:True, however despite there being relatively little Tau fluff available, what there is depicts them as being altruistic, idealistic and naive, though not always adhering strictly to their own principles. In other words, much in line with the stated design aims.

I think there's a lot of Tau background available. I think best ananlogy of how 40K fiction works is that of comic books. Like them, when new characters are invented they have to be placed into a pre-existing universe. The concept and original character may be the same at first but as years pass and different writers come the character evolves.

The opposite view is presented in fluff written in the Imperial voice.

We've gone over this before and that statement shows your bias. You immediately see something negative and say "This is negative therefore it must be Imperial POV" whereas your thought process should be "Is this Imperial POV? yes/no? then read it for what it is"

One can of course take both viewpoints as propaganda and assume the truth lies somewhere in between.

Indeed I hope it does. My point has remained that a civilization that is 100% good or evil is both unrealistic and boring

The IoM fluff, though, paints the Tau is being "not as good as they would like you to think" rather than outright evil, which raises questions.

Also, there is no disputing the fact that the Tau have got a lot of allies fighting for them -- Nicassar, Kroot, Tarellians, Humans, Vespids and Demiurgs -- it seems unlikely that all of these could be mind-controlled, or kept in the Federal armed forces by threat of forceful conquest. It just makes more common sense that they are genuine allies (if only of convenience).

There's no disputing that the Nicassar, Humans, Kroot, Demuirg are not mind controlled as evidenced by their many independant actions. The question is did The Etherals conscript The Vespid with nefarious means in a desperate attempt to find something to kill the Human's surpisingly dangerous and tough Astartes caste.
To reinterate I find the central question of the Tau is does the creedo "For The Greater Good" mean "The ends justify the means"?

Shakespeare knew that dramatic principles demand relief from constant tragedy and drama, so most of his historical or tragic plays include some comic relief.

The Tau perform a similar role in the 40K universe. They provide a contrast to the otherwise dismal background, thus illuminating it and making it more interesting.

That is debatable. There is a belief, and I don't neccessarlly subscribe to it myself, that the Tau's existence breaks the suspension of disbelief that all works of fiction require but more specifically the one that 40K requires. The is a mini-Dakka-meme that's overused a lot called GrimDark. You will see somebody ask a question like why does so-and-so do this or why is so-and-so so bad? And you will get the inevitable response "because its GrimDark" which is kinda funny but I don't really like it because it shows a clear reduction in thinking.
40K has created this interesting cycle of violence and suffering that's supposed to parable/parody our own world. Repressive organizations do bad things to people until they rebel by doing even worse things that in turn requires the establishment to crackdown and be even more repressive - and so the never-ending cycle of dystopanism grinds on. That's the very theme of 40K. If the Tau don't require this then why does anyone? It's a potential universe breaking issue. Anyways, as others would put it "Taus bad for GrimDark".

Nevertheless, there IS definite evidence of subjugation which flies in the face of Kroothawks quote. Either GW has changed their mind, or they realised all along that they could have their cake (make a 'good' race) and eat it (hint that they're also evil).

Shakespeare knew that dramatic principles demand relief from constant tragedy and drama, so most of his historical or tragic plays include some comic relief.

The Tau perform a similar role in the 40K universe. They provide a contrast to the otherwise dismal background, thus illuminating it and making it more interesting.