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But now we're talking about BA Honour Gaurd, which are more akin to a Command Squad.

schadenfreude wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:On paper VV and SLD look like crap, but they perform better than people think as long as they get off the charge on the turn they deepstrike.

battle report?

I brought BA to the west coast ard boys finals so I don't have any SLD battle report, and I didn't bring VV because I ran a jump list and VV can't carry a chapter banner which I believe to be mandatory in a jump list for morale/pinning reasons. An army with SLD won the east coast ard boys, that's all the battle report you'll ever need.

why were they good in his list? what did they do? who was he playing against? what were the dice rolls like? what was the mission? just saying that someone won a regional tournament and included lesser demons isnt enough for me. players win ard boyz regional events without taking summoned lesser demons too.... but we cant conclude from that they are bad. I just dont find this persuasive. theres too little information. someone posted the list in the tournaments section, btw. he also took blast masters if the poster remembered it right.... you dont think those are good.... do you?

Gibbsey wrote:

Caffran9 wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:In the BA codex its better to take honor guard rather than vanguard for the same roll

They don't fill the same role necessarily. Cheap (200 points or less) Vanguards units do something that nothing else n the BA codex can do. They're only good for a certain style of army, but in that army they're really good.

Heroic Intervention is good if you deepstrike close enough. My point was that Honor Guard can equip the 4 honor guard with more options than VV for the same cost, the VV Seargeant is traded for a Sanguinary Noviate which gives you the FNP bubble and Furious Charge already built in for no extra points.

Plus Ba Honor Guard can take a Chapter/Company banner, while the only thing they lose from VV is the option to take 5 extra guys

Not using up a FOC slot is also a bonus over VV

You're comparing units that aren't really filling the same role. So it is really hard to have a linear comparison, and very foolish to say that one is better than the other when they aren't doing the same thin (similar thing, bu not the same). You also have to consider the list that each unit would be going into, sometimes one will work better for a given list than the other. Sometimes both will be included. For example, I play both. I don't think Vanguards are good hammer units because they cost so much, so I keep them cheap and use them for pressure, space denial and movement control. Then I have a unit of Honor Guards packed with Storm Shields and strong cc stuff to act as my hammer.

Mukkin'About wrote:

Sageheart wrote: just to get that one turn kill tank with DoA

Vanguard vertrans do not get descent of angels. If this is not what you meant, fair enough. they still have a decent role in a descent of angels list. but they don't get that rule.
But it's true, honour guard are better in options. however dropping down and popping a tank in the same turn, that they don't do.
Kudos if you can roll well enough to pull that move off, i can never seem to

Wrong. Any BA with a Jump Pack has the Descent of Angels special rule.

Holy crap, i just checked that part. turns out jump packs really do give you DoA. i can't believe i was screwing myself out of that for a few games! thanks for the correction guys!

Where is it written that Blood Angels can assault the turn they deep strike?? I've missed this completely

vanguard can assault after they deep strike. he just didnt realize that any blood angel model with a jump pack had descent of angels. hence vangaurd scatter only d6 when they perform heroic intervention.

Brotherjulian wrote: Where is it written that Blood Angels can assault the turn they deep strike?? I've missed this completely

Im only aware of Veteran Vanguards being able to do that, they cannot shoot or run after they have declared it and you declare it before you deepstrike. So if you are out of assault range when they arrive after scatter you cant do anything

Gibbsey wrote:

Brotherjulian wrote: Where is it written that Blood Angels can assault the turn they deep strike?? I've missed this completely

Im only aware of Veteran Vanguards being able to do that, they cannot shoot or run after they have declared it and you declare it before you deepstrike. So if you are out of assault range when they arrive after scatter you cant do anything

Yeah thanks, I looked it up and found that. May be using some vanguards now...

There is one other unit that can DS assault. Ork Storm Boys with zagstruck sgt upgrade, that's 12 points a model plus a 85 point sgt upgrade, they loose a D3 stormboyz if they try it, but zagstruck has a pair of power fists that strike on initiative on the charge.

So while they don't get power weapons they do get 4 str 4 attacks EACH on the charge plus 5 STR 9 power claw attacks at init 4.

Let's talk a 15 man squad of boys plus zagstruk, 180+85 265 points, sack 2 boys on average if they do this they still wind up with 52+5 attacks.

Meanwhile the VV squad of 10 with jump packs and only the sarg's power weapon, even for the cheaper BA squad is already 315 points, they get 40 attacks and cannot include independent characters or DS through any means other than JPs for their assault, so no Priest or Dante in that squad to help out with FNP or Dante's DS without error.

While the Boyz are less upgradeable (only one boy can be upgraded to a nob and he can get a big choppa or a Power Claw) They are WAY better for their points and can come in a squad of 20. Bad news for them is that the Orks have much fewer ways to DS without error.

Well, Zagstruck's storm boyz are the ONLY unit in the ork codex that can Deep Strike.

Normal stormboyz can't DS at all.


that's the reason Zagstruck is fairly cheap. you can only get one unit doing what he is doing.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, Zagstruck's storm boyz are the ONLY unit in the ork codex that can Deep Strike.

Normal stormboyz can't DS at all.


that's the reason Zagstruck is fairly cheap. you can only get one unit doing what he is doing.

A fair point, but I would still say that it's a good comparison between the two units.

I would say that the easiest way to fix Vangaurds would be to make JPs 5 points, that's 50 points off a ten man squad it also means a 10 man jump squad with all power weapons cost the same as terminators, still a little much, but you could argue that mobility makes up for survivability.

Awesome Christ wrote:There is one other unit that can DS assault. Ork Storm Boys with zagstruck sgt upgrade, that's 12 points a model plus a 85 point sgt upgrade, they loose a D3 stormboyz if they try it, but zagstruck has a pair of power fists that strike on initiative on the charge.

So while they don't get power weapons they do get 4 str 4 attacks EACH on the charge plus 5 STR 9 power claw attacks at init 4.

Let's talk a 15 man squad of boys plus zagstruk, 180+85 265 points, sack 2 boys on average if they do this they still wind up with 52+5 attacks.

Meanwhile the VV squad of 10 with jump packs and only the sarg's power weapon, even for the cheaper BA squad is already 315 points, they get 40 attacks and cannot include independent characters or DS through any means other than JPs for their assault, so no Priest or Dante in that squad to help out with FNP or Dante's DS without error.

While the Boyz are less upgradeable (only one boy can be upgraded to a nob and he can get a big choppa or a Power Claw) They are WAY better for their points and can come in a squad of 20. Bad news for them is that the Orks have much fewer ways to DS without error.

The difference here is BA VV scatter d6 inches and can reroll reserve rolls to come in. Zagstruck's boyz can do neither.

Antebellum wrote:

Awesome Christ wrote:There is one other unit that can DS assault. Ork Storm Boys with zagstruck sgt upgrade, that's 12 points a model plus a 85 point sgt upgrade, they loose a D3 stormboyz if they try it, but zagstruck has a pair of power fists that strike on initiative on the charge.

So while they don't get power weapons they do get 4 str 4 attacks EACH on the charge plus 5 STR 9 power claw attacks at init 4.

Let's talk a 15 man squad of boys plus zagstruk, 180+85 265 points, sack 2 boys on average if they do this they still wind up with 52+5 attacks.

Meanwhile the VV squad of 10 with jump packs and only the sarg's power weapon, even for the cheaper BA squad is already 315 points, they get 40 attacks and cannot include independent characters or DS through any means other than JPs for their assault, so no Priest or Dante in that squad to help out with FNP or Dante's DS without error.

While the Boyz are less upgradeable (only one boy can be upgraded to a nob and he can get a big choppa or a Power Claw) They are WAY better for their points and can come in a squad of 20. Bad news for them is that the Orks have much fewer ways to DS without error.

The difference here is BA VV scatter d6 inches and can reroll reserve rolls to come in. Zagstruck's boyz can do neither.

Only if we're talking BA, vanilla SM don't get that option.

Well if you want you can get homing beacons on some vanilla pods/bikes for pinpoint accurate DS

kenshin620 wrote:Well if you want you can get homing beacons on some vanilla pods/bikes for pinpoint accurate DS

I works but now we're talking about even more points (45 at the minimum not to mention that it could be destroyed before the VVs make the field, feeding your opponent 2 KP) not saying your wrong just saying that generally for less points they're just if not more deadly at nearly half the price per Ork. in a 20 man squad it's 325, the same price as a 10 man vanilla SM VV squad. They're a little more risky, but for their points I'd say they're worth it.