Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As the name of the thread suggests,I was reading the codex: SM, yesterday, and was shocked, when i found out, that you need to pay 10pts for each jump pack in the squad, plus you pay full pprice for all of the upgrades (comnpared to the sternguards where they cost half as much, plus you get their specialities, the special ammo, for free). So, what gives??

they are pretty bad in the sm codex.
in blood angels they are a bit cheaper, and are awesome in small squads(!!)

GW aparently find DS'ing and assaulting to be a bit OP'd possibly?

Well when you consider all the locator beacons pods can put down turn one, you are almost garuanteed to have a beacon somewhere useful when they come in. Still over priced but it brings it a little more in line.

I'll agree the unit is severely over costed. That and even when used with locator beacons I find that sternguard are still much better for the points you pay.

Perhaps GW playtested them against Tau? lol

In the BA codex its better to take honor guard rather than vanguard for the same roll

I think they can be very useful in a BA codex, and can be pretty cheap ( i mean for vanguard vets..) if you have just 5 with a PF, maybe a melta just to get that one turn kill tank with DoA. i always field one like that with my DoA army list, but i never deck them out since then they get WAYYY over priced so FAST! and there are better ways to make decked out squads that are cheaper than vanguard vets.

i do like that one turn assault thou, def since it is very scary to your opponent when they find out you have such a thing, i find my opponents attempting to make it impossible for me to get that one time assault and sometimes due to taht they make moves which don't help them overall just block this one squad which is always nice.

I think Mad Ward fell asleep when writing them up, or he lost the complete idea that Vangaurd are "Elite Assault Marines". To me, if they were Elite Assault Marines, they should have those JPs as Standard. You can easily counter argue that there should be an increase to the original cost of the unit, but then you're just covering over the price of the JPs if they weren't standard wargear - which at the moment they aren't. Vanguard in both dexs are severely hampered by their price and the wargear prices they are given - it is just taking wargear from other units and mashing them together. They aren't even durable. Sure the BA ones can (sometimes) benefit from the BA funky rules but standard ones don't.

Somebody needs to rethink this unit or it should be placed in the bin. Which is actually a shame because I love the concept of them but the points hamper me using them.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:I think Mad Ward fell asleep when writing them up, or he lost the complete idea that Vangaurd are "Elite Assault Marines".

Personally I believe the problem is in that he read the old Codex and fell asleep. After waking up he decided it would be a jolly good idea to split the Veterans into two separate, mutually exclusive entities. Sternguard and Vanguard. Which had no precedent whatsoever in existing background.

Yes. I miss the old style generic Veterans you could customize according to the mission .

waasssdddd wrote: As the name of the thread suggests,I was reading the codex: SM, yesterday, and was shocked, when i found out, that you need to pay 10pts for each jump pack in the squad, plus you pay full pprice for all of the upgrades (comnpared to the sternguards where they cost half as much, plus you get their specialities, the special ammo, for free). So, what gives??

Assaulting strait out of deep strike is pretty new so I think they're afraid of its potential impact on the game. They're usually overly cautious in situations like that and tend to write overpriced or underpowered units at first. As they gain more confidence the point value will stack up with the units performance a little better. dark eldar heat lances are another good example of this. melta + lance + ap1 hasnt been done before (that Im aware of) so they knocked the strength down to 6 and limited the number of units that can carry it.. same concept.

VV can be useful and work in a Regular Marine list.


the main problem is that people tend to over-equip them.

if you do use them you want most of them to have standard equipment. maybe 3 in a squad of ten will have some special weapons.

here are some builds that will be the best what they give you.

10 VVs (sergeant with 2 LCs)(2 LCs)(6 Melta bombs) 200 points
would work best in a LRC as an Assault unit. 8 LC attacks and 32 normal attacks on the charge. they also have 6 Melta bombs for incase a Walker or a tank comes along.

5 VVs (Sergeant with TH)(1 TH)(3 Melta bombs and Jump packs) 235 points
fairly cheap for TH/melta bomb delivery.

They're good in the BA codex, but in the normal Smurf 'dex, they're pretty much useless. The lack of DoC makes them way too unreliable to justify their high cost.

Gibbsey wrote:In the BA codex its better to take honor guard rather than vanguard for the same roll

They don't fill the same role necessarily. Cheap (200 points or less) Vanguards units do something that nothing else n the BA codex can do. They're only good for a certain style of army, but in that army they're really good.

Assaulting out of deep strike was nothing new, it's been around since the 4th ed chaos codex with summoned lesser daemons.

On paper VV and SLD look like crap, but they perform better than people think as long as they get off the charge on the turn they deepstrike.

Peronsally I think BA VV=SLD>Codex VV. To compare take 200 points of VV and compare it to 16 SLD for 195 points.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'll agree the unit is severely over costed. That and even when used with locator beacons I find that sternguard are still much better for the points you pay.

Perhaps GW playtested them against Tau? lol

hahaha now thats funny!

schadenfreude wrote:Assaulting out of deep strike was nothing new, it's been around since the 4th ed chaos codex with summoned lesser daemons.

it was a unique ability to chaos, the location of the deep strike was fairly limited, demons were handicapped by their instability rules, and GW backed off of the concept in the 4th ed csm codex by nerfing demons in general. from that I conclude that gw was dissatisfied with even this comparitively cautious application of a new concept. they're trying it again with vanguard vets, but here the caution is in the points cost of the unit. when they find the right balance the ability will be fairly costed. right now it just isnt.

On paper VV and SLD look like crap, but they perform better than people think as long as they get off the charge on the turn they deepstrike.

battle report?

Yea it seems that GW hates the idea of assaults after DS, making lictors and mandrakes nigh useless

Caffran9 wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:In the BA codex its better to take honor guard rather than vanguard for the same roll

They don't fill the same role necessarily. Cheap (200 points or less) Vanguards units do something that nothing else n the BA codex can do. They're only good for a certain style of army, but in that army they're really good.

Heroic Intervention is good if you deepstrike close enough. My point was that Honor Guard can equip the 4 honor guard with more options than VV for the same cost, the VV Seargeant is traded for a Sanguinary Noviate which gives you the FNP bubble and Furious Charge already built in for no extra points.

Plus Ba Honor Guard can take a Chapter/Company banner, while the only thing they lose from VV is the option to take 5 extra guys

Not using up a FOC slot is also a bonus over VV

Sageheart wrote: just to get that one turn kill tank with DoA

Vanguard vertrans do not get descent of angels. If this is not what you meant, fair enough. they still have a decent role in a descent of angels list. but they don't get that rule.
But it's true, honour guard are better in options. however dropping down and popping a tank in the same turn, that they don't do.
Kudos if you can roll well enough to pull that move off, i can never seem to

Mukkin'About wrote:

Sageheart wrote: just to get that one turn kill tank with DoA

Vanguard vertrans do not get descent of angels. If this is not what you meant, fair enough. they still have a decent role in a descent of angels list. but they don't get that rule.
But it's true, honour guard are better in options. however dropping down and popping a tank in the same turn, that they don't do.
Kudos if you can roll well enough to pull that move off, i can never seem to

If i remember correctly they get DoA if they take jump packs, DoA is not listed as one of their abilities but i think the BA Jump Pack entry says they gain DoA
(This confused people because assault marines got DoA as part of their abilities even when they removed jump packs)

The issue is from a play stand point for vanilla Honor Guard, Sterngard and Vangard are chose the first two but VV are overpriced.

Honorguard - 2+ armor and pw for all cost B

Sterngard - 3+ armor and special bolter rounds for cost A

Vangard - 3+ armor and free PW for sgt for cost A.
Pay cost B and get jump packs and heroic intervention. Give them all PW like honor guard for cost C with C being a little less than double cost A. Or to put cost C another way - it exceeds the cost of a terminator.

All get 2 attacks so vangard are the poorest payoff of the 3. If they stayed current cost and had the jump packs for cost A with option of adding all the PW for cost B they would be in the mix.

I'm going to speak of a Blood Angels jump army, since that is what I am currently building.

First, Descent of Angels is given to any unit that buys a jump pack. Librarians, Chaplains, Vanguard Vets, etc.

Second, Honour Guard do not have 2+ armor ... at least for Blood Angels.

Third, Honour Guard and Vanguard Vets do not perform the same role. Not by a long shot (remember, this is a BA DoA army). The point of HG is to drop up to 4 meltaguns onto a target and bring a non-Independent Character FnP/FC bubble to the table. All for 155 points, not bad at all.

Vanguard Veterans on the other hand are for dropping and taking out/tying up immediate threats. I often see VV equipped with storm shields to tie up enemy units long enough for Assault Squads to charge in a finish the enemy off. With DoA, VV's have a much better chance of landing within assault range.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:On paper VV and SLD look like crap, but they perform better than people think as long as they get off the charge on the turn they deepstrike.

battle report?

I brought BA to the west coast ard boys finals so I don't have any SLD battle report, and I didn't bring VV because I ran a jump list and VV can't carry a chapter banner which I believe to be mandatory in a jump list for morale/pinning reasons. An army with SLD won the east coast ard boys, that's all the battle report you'll ever need.

The real problem with VV when compared to HG or SG is they can't carry a chapter banner.

On the topic of a chapter banner, life can really suck without one. The bulk of BA jump squads are not fearless, and failed morale or pinning checks are really bad. A failed morale test pushes the squad an average of 10.5" away from the enemy, possibly into dangerous terrain. Failed pinning checks are a completely unacceptable waste of a turn. The 12" radius from the center of an army can cover just about everybody. A good example of where one is needed is when fighting IG with a manticore. With multiple templates doing indirect fire it's likely a manticore will wound 6 marines killing 2 without FNP. If the 2 dead MEQ are from 2 separate squads that's 2 pinning checks at -1 which means squads with a sergeant pass on an 8, without pass on a 7. The reroll makes a huge difference, it really is night and day just ask any WHFB player.

Antebellum wrote:I'm going to speak of a Blood Angels jump army, since that is what I am currently building.

First, Descent of Angels is given to any unit that buys a jump pack. Librarians, Chaplains, Vanguard Vets, etc.

Second, Honour Guard do not have 2+ armor ... at least for Blood Angels.

Third, Honour Guard and Vanguard Vets do not perform the same role. Not by a long shot (remember, this is a BA DoA army). The point of HG is to drop up to 4 meltaguns onto a target and bring a non-Independent Character FnP/FC bubble to the table. All for 155 points, not bad at all.

Vanguard Veterans on the other hand are for dropping and taking out/tying up immediate threats. I often see VV equipped with storm shields to tie up enemy units long enough for Assault Squads to charge in a finish the enemy off. With DoA, VV's have a much better chance of landing within assault range.

My point was BA Honor guard and BA Vanguard share many things, both can get doa if they take jump packs and both can equip the 4 regular squad members with the same things (honor guard have more options). Only difference is VV have heroic intervention, option to take 10 guys and a seargeant. Honor Guard have a sanguinary noviate (same effect as preist no extra cost the option to take a champion instead of a regular guy and the option to take a banner. Honor guard are much more survivable dont take up a foc slot but lose the ability to assault when they deepstrike.

I'm sorry, but what in heaven's name is SLD? I'm skipping the rest of the posts since it's really... really irking me.

Gibbsey wrote:

Antebellum wrote:I'm going to speak of a Blood Angels jump army, since that is what I am currently building.

First, Descent of Angels is given to any unit that buys a jump pack. Librarians, Chaplains, Vanguard Vets, etc.

Second, Honour Guard do not have 2+ armor ... at least for Blood Angels.

Third, Honour Guard and Vanguard Vets do not perform the same role. Not by a long shot (remember, this is a BA DoA army). The point of HG is to drop up to 4 meltaguns onto a target and bring a non-Independent Character FnP/FC bubble to the table. All for 155 points, not bad at all.

Vanguard Veterans on the other hand are for dropping and taking out/tying up immediate threats. I often see VV equipped with storm shields to tie up enemy units long enough for Assault Squads to charge in a finish the enemy off. With DoA, VV's have a much better chance of landing within assault range.

My point was BA Honor guard and BA Vanguard share many things, both can get doa if they take jump packs and both can equip the 4 regular squad members with the same things (honor guard have more options). Only difference is VV have heroic intervention, option to take 10 guys and a seargeant. Honor Guard have a sanguinary noviate (same effect as preist no extra cost the option to take a champion instead of a regular guy and the option to take a banner. Honor guard are much more survivable dont take up a foc slot but lose the ability to assault when they deepstrike.

HG can fill the melta deepstrike roll of VV, I was just saying I disagree with using a unit like that in a jump list. In a mechanized list I can see the use of a DOA melta hg, but in a jump list if the entire army doesn't doa the HG should remain with the troops for the banner's morale bonus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:I'm sorry, but what in heaven's name is SLD? I'm skipping the rest of the posts since it's really... really irking me.

Summoned lesser deamons from the chaos codex. They are the only other unit in the game that can assault in the turn they deep strike onto the board.

Well, if you give them meltabombs and jump packs, they can DS and assault, destroying many a tank.
I have a unit- 10 men, jump packs, meltabombs, 6 TH/SS, 4 LC- 700pts. OVERKILL.

shrike wrote:Well, if you give them meltabombs and jump packs, they can DS and assault, destroying many a tank.
I have a unit- 10 men, jump packs, meltabombs, 6 TH/SS, 4 LC- 700pts. OVERKILL.

0_o thats a little costly

also 6 TH/SS isnt that alone 300pts?

apoc. of couse. In regular 40k I play 5.
(sometimes 10)

@Antebellum "Second, Honour Guard do not have 2+ armor ... at least for Blood Angels."

Honor guard for vanilla gets 2+ armor and a power weapon. Only chapter masters qualify for them and they are do not take a FOC slot.

You BA closest equivalent are Sanguinary Guard who cost 5 more but have jump packs(wings) and a MC power weapon and take up an elite slot if the head vampire is not leading them and then they are troops.