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Crusader for me, since I play BT its a natural fit.

It's not even a matter of which one is "better". All 3 have different roles.

I only ever take a Crusader(though i would consider taking a Godhammer).

This is because only the Crusader can move and Fire all weapons.

I use it mostly for anti-troop as well; and finding a unit within 18" of my landraider is not that hard to do. Finding a unit(or 2) within 9-12" of my redeemer almost never happens so i almost never get to fire both Flamestorms, and certainly never both Flamestorms and my Assault cannons. Getting a godhammer within 36" of a (squad)unit and 48" of a vehicle is considerably easier, so there will be times i can park it, wax a tank, and kill 1 or 2 Squad members(maybe a 3rd if they are within 24" and I add a storm bolter).

Frankly, I like the Flamestorm; I just wish i had access to a nice fast Baal Predator to field it on.

It's gotta be the redeemer. People say you only ever get one flamestorm in range, but apparently forget you can fire both thanks to the machine spirit at two different targets. It works amazingly well and I fear it when my CSM see it across the table from them.

After that, Crusader mostly due to transport capacity.

besides that you only need to get it off once to wipe a whole squad.

Spellbound wrote:It's gotta be the redeemer. People say you only ever get one flamestorm in range, but apparently forget you can fire both thanks to the machine spirit at two different targets. It works amazingly well and I fear it when my CSM see it across the table from them.

After that, Crusader mostly due to transport capacity.

Which isnt a big deal to be honest. Because most of the time they would be moving 12" and fire only one. Rarely that you will ever be able to fire at 2 targets. But then again a single flamestorm spray is enough.

Right, cause you are going to get 12" away from an enemy and they will line their MEQ up to be roasted...

And for the guy that said you can fire both... that's if you move 6". I'd have a pretty good laugh at an opponent who allowed your LRR to get 6" away from two of his units and didn't move them away.

The redeemer is easy to avoid. Its good against bad players, or in some very particular lists. Otherwise it requires to much cooperation from your opponent.

Dracos wrote:Right, cause you are going to get 12" away from an enemy and they will line their MEQ up to be roasted...

And for the guy that said you can fire both... that's if you move 6". I'd have a pretty good laugh at an opponent who allowed your LRR to get 6" away from two of his units and didn't move them away.

The redeemer is easy to avoid. Its good against bad players, or in some very particular lists. Otherwise it requires to much cooperation from your opponent.

The problem is, the bad players are still good enough to avoid this =|

the only cooperation it requires is to have blown the badguys out of their transport. power of the machine spirit. flame this charge that. how did we get to the point where a template that auto-kills almost anything outside of terminator armor is a bad thing? there's no comparison between the redeemer and the crusader in terms of offensive potential. the crusader has a few dinky pee shooter bolters. the redeemer roasts meqs by the dozen. its a complete shut out.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the only cooperation it requires is to have blown the badguys out of their transport. power of the machine spirit. flame this charge that. how did we get to the point where a template that auto-kills almost anything outside of terminator armor is a bad thing? there's no comparison between the redeemer and the crusader in terms of offensive potential. the crusader has a few dinky pee shooter bolters. the redeemer roasts meqs by the dozen. its a complete shut out.

The only reason why you would want a crusader in the first place is because you want 7 terminators inside. Not some pea shooters.

So yes, it's a complete shut out when the topic is LR firepower.

Not really. The crusader is more suited to a counter-assault role for a mid ranged mechanized army. The redeemer is more suited to a mechrush army with at least 2 LRRs and enough mech support to help when you hit the enemy's lines.

An LRC doesn't have to be worried about getting right next to the enemy, as it has a bit of range. The choice is a lot more about the role you have in mind for the LR than any direct comparison.

Sure, the LRR will kill the most infantry per turn of shooting. How many turns of shooting its going to get, on the other hand, is going to affect its overall performance. You can't just say an LRR is superior to all other LR variants, because the context of the army is needed to make that decision.

LRRs fall prey to the fact that you can see where the flame template is going the turn before, and either move to avoid it or spread out to minimize hits. Its flamer isn't going to wipe an MEQ squad in one hit against a good opponent.

Don't get me wrong, the other LRs all have their pitfalls too. The LRC doesn't have the pure output of the LRR, while the Phobos LR lacks anti-infantry and has a bit of a confused weapon loadout after the change in defensive weapons.

Abbandon and I will disagree on this all day long, as far as I can tell the only thing that matters to him is pure output. From that perspective I can see why he would choose that one. However, I think there are tactical advantages to the range of the anti-infantry on the LRC.

Redeemer hands down is the best of the current Land Raider variants. Why you may ask?

First off, the redeemer has a Str 6 Ap 3 Flamer gun on its sponsons. Second, it has the perfect transport capacity 10 troops plus 1 IC or some combo, or 5 Terminators and 1 IC with or without Terminator armor. Lastly, it still has the assault cannon and Multi-Melta for anti-tank goodness.

My Godhand, when I had it, was pathetic. However, it was during 4th edition so I don't know how well it is now, but I have heard it been bashed many times. My Crusader is pretty good. I love using it against Harlequins and other low armor or low invulnerable save units because of the Hurricane Bolters and the fact that they are defensive so firing both sponson's plus the Multi-Melta or Assault Cannon is pretty cool. Hands down, however, my Redeemer has killed more units and done more damage than my Godhand and Crusader combined, and I have used my Redeemer for less than a fraction of the battles that I have used my Godhand and Crusader for, albeit I did just buy it not long ago.

The Redeemer flame cannons roast pretty much every unit in the game except for Terminators and that makes it pretty awesome in my book. Nothing is better than driving the Redeemer up 12" and then roasting a squad of 10 Chaos Space Marines and watching your opponents face drop in horror, or better yet move it 6" up and roast TWO squads of Chaos Space Marines!

I'll admit the Redeemer took a little getting used to since its two sponson's are close range weapons, but I find that moving the Redeemer up 12" dropping its TH/SS Terminators with a Sanguinary Priest out and then roasting a squad of...well...whatever isn't 2+ armor is pretty satisfying and makes it the best Land Raider in my book.

Disclaimer: I am a Blood Angels player. I do not know how the Godhand, Crusader, and Redeemer work for Vanilla Marines or other Chapters.

Dracos wrote:

And for the guy that said you can fire both... that's if you move 6". I'd have a pretty good laugh at an opponent who allowed your LRR to get 6" away from two of his units and didn't move them away.

You would be surprised how vulnerable a consolidation can leave you, or how close a mission might REQUIRE someone to get to an objective. A redeemer sitting between two objectives in a game where you're going second can make a huge difference. Sure the argument of "anyone who lets a redeemer live blah blah blah" can be made, but it isn't always up to you whether the dice allow you to down an AV 14 vehicle or not.

Point is, a redeemer has the potential to do MASSIVE damage in some ideal situations, and a lot in others. The crusader is just a big transport with some guns on it. Mind you it carries DEATH, but beyond that won't cause as big a change in the battle as its redeemer cousin.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the only cooperation it requires is to have blown the badguys out of their transport. power of the machine spirit. flame this charge that. how did we get to the point where a template that auto-kills almost anything outside of terminator armor is a bad thing? there's no comparison between the redeemer and the crusader in terms of offensive potential. the crusader has a few dinky pee shooter bolters. the redeemer roasts meqs by the dozen. its a complete shut out.

+1 to this!!!

The only variant that can even compare is the Classic Landraider because it fills a different role than the Redeemer (Anti-Tank vs Anti-Infantry) The Crusader will only put about 5 wounds on T4 with it's hurricane bolters w/in melta range. And cover and armor will nerf this even further.

Crusader over Redeemer IMO. I'd say that 3 extra Terminators (or 6 PA marines) dish out a whole lot of more pain than the difference between the bolters and the flamestorm cannon.

Spellbound wrote:You would be surprised how vulnerable a consolidation can leave you, or how close a mission might REQUIRE someone to get to an objective. A redeemer sitting between two objectives in a game where you're going second can make a huge difference.

Granted, consolidation moves can leave you vulnerable to a redeemer.

This whole concept of the redeemer sitting between 2 objectives to block them from being taken by the opponent is exactly where the crusader becomes better. The crusader can keep max firepower up putting more pressure on the opponent to commit. OTOH, the redeemer has to get close to use its flamestorm cannons to overcome the LRC's firepower. It is not as forcing, meaning your opponent has more time to try and deal with it before being forced into a bad decision (rushing the LR or not taking the objective at all).

The LRR is all about being aggressive, and the LRC is more reactive and pressuring. Certainly the hurricane bolters don' t put out a huge amount of damage across all targets, but are a significant threat to weak infantry and can still put a couple wounds on MEQ.

s.j.mccartney wrote:Both...I like to keep my flamestorm cannons/hurricane bolters held on with blu-tack.

I couldn't decide which was the better build from that kit, so I swop them! I still haven't decided which is better. Different list builds have better LR variants.

The best solution is removable/exchangeable weapons!

I love the Redeemer,but i do have sponsons built for the Crusader and i too have blue tacked them for easy swapping between variants and weapon destroyed results.

Yuber wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the only cooperation it requires is to have blown the badguys out of their transport. power of the machine spirit. flame this charge that. how did we get to the point where a template that auto-kills almost anything outside of terminator armor is a bad thing? there's no comparison between the redeemer and the crusader in terms of offensive potential. the crusader has a few dinky pee shooter bolters. the redeemer roasts meqs by the dozen. its a complete shut out.

The only reason why you would want a crusader in the first place is because you want 7 terminators inside. Not some pea shooters.

So yes, it's a complete shut out when the topic is LR firepower.

yeah so alll you're giving up in order to get it is 2 terminators inside the land raider. that doesnt seem like that big of a deal to me. what are you going to kill with 8 terminators that you cant kill with 6?


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Dracos wrote:Right, cause you are going to get 12" away from an enemy and they will line their MEQ up to be roasted...

And for the guy that said you can fire both... that's if you move 6". I'd have a pretty good laugh at an opponent who allowed your LRR to get 6" away from two of his units and didn't move them away.

The redeemer is easy to avoid. Its good against bad players, or in some very particular lists. Otherwise it requires to much cooperation from your opponent.

who says they're going to line up? if you drive right up to a squad in a normal formation you'll catch most of the squad. if they take specific steps to avoid the template you'll catch about half. the flamer template is 8 inches long it covers alot of space. they dont have to line up at all.


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I dont think theres any way at all to position a squad of 10 marines so that if I can move a flamer template 12" from its starting point, and I start within range of the squad, I wont catch at least 5, and have the squad still in coherency. more likely it will be more than 5. can you draw us a chart, dracos, of how exactly you think this squad is going to avoid the template?

The best is tank shocking them all in a little line then flaming the line. I killed 19 guardsman in one shot with the redeemer doing this at one point.

Well I'm not sure if this is the scenario you were talking about, but what I said was if you end your turn 12" away from the marine unit, they can move out of the way.

(the movement trail in the first photo just shows that it is 12" away from the unit - within 1 turn of getting there.



As you can see, the marine unit moves back during its turn, and only 2 get caught by the redeemer flamer. Now your redeemer has plunged right down into the marine lines. If they can't summon enough firepower to down the raider at this point their list sucks, or the game is already won in which case the redeemer's firepower hardly matters.

1.errrrr.... why does the tactical squad get a 6" move after the redeemer's movement phase? Its not their turn they dont get to go anywhere. the tank moves and then fires. the template should go down with everyone exactly where they are in the 1st diagram.

2. if the red line is 12" long and you measure from the center, the center of the tank should end *on top* of the front rank-middle guy of the squad. either the red line isnt 12" long (ie. the tank didnt get its full move) or else the redeemer started more than 12" away. thats not the scenario we're talking about is it?

3. who measures from the center of the tank? measure from the front and the tank is in.

4. I said start the flamer template within range. as you'll see by looking at the diagram the nose of the flame storm cannon is at least an inch closer to the squad than the center of the redeemer.

I'm really not impressed with the Land Raider Redeemer in a BA list, and here is why.

The best possible use of a flamestorm cannon would be to hit infantry with it after another tank performs a tank shock clustering them.

A Baal Pred with TL AC can move 12" and tank shock a unit to cluster them, fire it's TL AC at another target, and then a Land Raider Redeemer can flamestorm the clustered squad.

A land raider Crusader can move 12" and tank shock a unit to cluster them, Fire it's TL AC at another target, and then a Baal pred can flamerstorm the clustered squad. The difference here is the Crusader has a larger transport capacity, and a larger footprint that a Baal displacing more members of the tank shocked squad and thus more units are clustered. End result is more MEQ get roasted over a flamestorm cannon from the Crusader/flamerstorm baal combo than the Redeemer/AC Baal combo because land raiders are better at tank shocking to cluster squads than preds.

Final verdict=Crusader +Flamestorm Baal>Redeemer+AC Baal.

PS Flamerstorm Baal+Redeemer isn't a good combo either. If one tank shocks a unit clustering it for the other to shoot it will be to close to properly use it's flamestorm cannon, and the 1st flamestorm will thin the ranks enough that the 2nd flamestorm will only catch 1 or 2 targets.

Redeemer, or occasionally Phobos, depending on what you need in your army. Multimelta should be standard equipment.

Remember that either one can drive 12" while firing a single weapon with the MS, a capability of which the Redeemer makes especially good use.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:1.errrrr.... why does the tactical squad get a 6" move after the redeemer's movement phase? Its not their turn they dont get to go anywhere. the tank moves and then fires. the template should go down with everyone exactly where they are in the 1st diagram.

Turn 1 for the redeemer ended with it being exactly 12" away from the tactical squad. As in it started its turn 24" away.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:2. if the red line is 12" long and you measure from the center, the center of the tank should end *on top* of the front rank-middle guy of the squad. either the red line isnt 12" long (ie. the tank didnt get its full move) or else the redeemer started more than 12" away. thats not the scenario we're talking about is it?

The second photo shows that on the foot marine player's first turn, he backed up 6", getting him about 18" away. Also in the same photo, is the LRR's next turn where it moves forward 12", making it 6" away. It then pivots and fires, hitting 2.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:3. who measures from the center of the tank? measure from the front and the tank is in.

I'll tell you what, you go write your own software that measures from the front and I'll use it, until then I'll just use V40k to make the diagrams.edit: it doesn't even matter where you measure from, you won't get close by measuring from the front...

AbaddonFidelis wrote:4. I said start the flamer template within range. as you'll see by looking at the diagram the nose of the flame storm cannon is at least an inch closer to the squad than the center of the redeemer.

So the scenario you are proposing is that the LRR starts off right beside a marine squad. How did it get there? Did the marine player move up his unit to be right beside the LRR? That is not a reasonable scenario. I started with the units 24" apart, as one would see in a pitched battle. LRR moves up 12", and is 12" away. Marines move back, and are 18" away. LRR moves up again and can hit 2 guys with the flame template, and the LRR is now in the 2nd players deployment zone.

Any other scenario requires your opponent to cooperate to put his marines next to your LRR. As I said, sure a bad player will let you flame his whole unit. Good for you, the LRR crushes weak opponents. s

Dracos wrote:
So the scenario you are proposing is that the LRR starts off right beside a marine squad. How did it get there? Did the marine player move up his unit to be right beside the LRR? That is not a reasonable scenario. I started with the units 24" apart, as one would see in a pitched battle. LRR moves up 12", and is 12" away. Marines move back, and are 18" away. LRR moves up again and can hit 2 guys with the flame template, and the LRR is now in the 2nd players deployment zone.

Any other scenario requires your opponent to cooperate to put his marines next to your LRR. As I said, sure a bad player will let you flame his whole unit. Good for you, the LRR crushes weak opponents. s

Reasonable scenario is the marines just jumped out of a transport and attempted to melta the land raider, or the land raider is approaching a building with devastators inside of it. Both scenarios will require the land raider surviving melta shots.

The most reasonable scenario is the land raider moves 12" on turn 1, pops smoke, goes another 12" on turn 2, and busts open a can of whopass in the form of whatever comes out it's assault ramps. After that the land raider's primary function is complete, and unless it slags an enemy land raider with it's MM it's just not going to earn it's points back. That job is in the hands of the Land Raider's passengers.

Whats a godhammer?

A single melta shot is not worth it, since it has less than 50% chance of killing the LR and the reprisal of the LRR is much more certain. Anyone who hops a 10 man squad out of a rhino for a single melta shot is either desperate or a bad player.

If you aren't rushing in to deliver the cargo, the LRC is better since it can still fire its sponsons. That has been my point the whole time. The LRC is better at playing midfield control games, the LRR is better for all out aggression. Both strategies have different supporting elements needed to work.

Dracos wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:1.errrrr.... why does the tactical squad get a 6" move after the redeemer's movement phase? Its not their turn they dont get to go anywhere. the tank moves and then fires. the template should go down with everyone exactly where they are in the 1st diagram.

Turn 1 for the redeemer ended with it being exactly 12" away from the tactical squad. As in it started its turn 24" away.

its completely impossible for the tactical squad to get a movement phase in between the redeemer's moving and shooting phase. your diagram needs to reflect that.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

2. if the red line is 12" long and you measure from the center, the center of the tank should end *on top* of the front rank-middle guy of the squad. either the red line isnt 12" long (ie. the tank didnt get its full move) or else the redeemer started more than 12" away. thats not the scenario we're talking about is it?

The second photo shows that on the foot marine player's first turn, he backed up 6", getting him about 18" away. Also in the same photo, is the LRR's next turn where it moves forward 12", making it 6" away. It then pivots and fires, hitting 2.

ok but thats not really what I said..... I said if you start the template (not the redeemer) 12 inches away, it is not possible for you to position the models such that at least 5 won't get caught by the flame storm cannon. Who is going to try to flame storm a unit that starts 18 inches away? thats slowed. ofcourse it wont work.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

3. who measures from the center of the tank? measure from the front and the tank is in.

I'll tell you what, you go write your own software that measures from the front and I'll use it, until then I'll just use V40k to make the diagrams.edit: it doesn't even matter where you measure from, you won't get close by measuring from the front...

if you start the front of the tank 12 inches away and them measure movement from the center then the redeemer is losing about two inches of movement. ie. you started the template 14" away. as long as you're *consistent* with where you measure from it doesnt matter. but thats not what your diagram shows.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

4. I said start the flamer template within range. as you'll see by looking at the diagram the nose of the flame storm cannon is at least an inch closer to the squad than the center of the redeemer.

So the scenario you are proposing is that the LRR starts off right beside a marine squad.

no. the scenario I propose is that it starts twelve inches away. thats not right beside the marine squad at all.

How did it get there? Did the marine player move up his unit to be right beside the LRR?

I dont know how your opponents use land raiders. I always send them strait at the heart of my opponent. after my 2nd turn, if its still alive, I'll be within 12" of 2 or more squads on average.

That is not a reasonable scenario.

2 out of 3 missions are objective based, and require a player to hold ground. they dont always have the option of moving away. or if they do they lose the game. get baked or lose. good scenario for the redeemer player.

I started with the units 24" apart, as one would see in a pitched battle. LRR moves up 12", and is 12" away. Marines move back, and are 18" away. LRR moves up again and can hit 2 guys with the flame template, and the LRR is now in the 2nd players deployment zone.

yeah thats my point. you started with the template 2 feet away when I said I could catch a squad from 1 foot away. you doubled the distance. the scenario is not reflective. *of course* you cant catch them with the redeemer on the 1st turn. that just goes without saying. we dont need a diagram to show that do we.

Any other scenario requires your opponent to cooperate to put his marines next to your LRR. As I said, sure a bad player will let you flame his whole unit. Good for you, the LRR crushes weak opponents. s

so if someone has a tac squad within 2 feet of a redeemer they're a bad player? you have to hold ground in 2 out of 3 scenarios. thats just the way the game is right now. retreating isnt always an option.

You don't have to hold ground until ~ turn 4. You have to be on objectives by turn 5, so you have the time to fall back from an initial thrust.

I'm sorry you don't understand the diagrams. I tried to explain them but I guess I failed.

The scenario plays out like this: Redeemer is player A, marines player B

Deployment: Pitched battle the LRR is deployed exactly 24" away from the Marines, and steals the initiative so goes first (note this makes it a best case scenario)

Player A: Moves up 12" and pops smoke.

Player B: Marines move back 6", can even use run move to get a bit of extra distance if they want *(Possibly to get out of range of any terminators assaulting out of it).

Player A: Now there is a choice. You know that you must be at least 18" away from the marines. If you move 12" up and try to flame, you do little damage and are in the heart of the enemy where all their firepower can be brought on your LRR/terminators. If you stand still you block the enemy from advancing, and can wait to commit if in an objective mission as they will eventually have to move to get objectives.

If Player A now rushes forward, this will likely prove to be a mistake as the LRR and terminators will get swarmed and focus fired down. If you choose the second option, this type of role is better filled by the LRC as you can play this "goal keeper" role midfield better by adding a bit of pressure with the defensive weapons.

The tactic of deploying forward, retreating a turn to lure the opponent into overextending, and then counterattacking is very potent and a method I use to win many games. The LRR is particularly vulnerable to this. The only way this idea can work is if the LRR has a lot of company rushing down to your opponents board edge. That way, the forward movement will not take you out of position with respect to the rest of your forces. However, you are still giving up most of your shooting during the first two turns if your army is all moving up with you.

When you propose a scenario that starts a LRR 12" away from an enemy on your turn, that means that you

A) Ended your previous turn 12" away and the enemy DID NOT REACT.
B) Ended your previous turn 6" away and the enemy moved back. If you ended your last movement phase 6" away you could have assaulted with your terminators, so I find it questionable as to how this could happen.
C) Ended your previous turn further than 12" away, but the enemy moved up to you. Their could be only 1 reason to do this that is a good one, and that is to take a few meltagun shots. Notice that I said a few, as a single meltagun has too low of a chance to be worth this maneuver. If he fired enough meltaguns that the LRR should have died but it didn't, then you made a mistake and got lucky.

In all cases, the LRR starting its turn 12" away from the enemy means that one of the two players made a mistake, or the dice have decided that the controller of the LRR is going to win the match.

Dracos wrote:You don't have to hold ground until ~ turn 4. You have to be on objectives by turn 5, so you have the time to fall back from an initial thrust.

I'm sorry you don't understand the diagrams. I tried to explain them but I guess I failed.

I do understand the diagrams.... thats the problem.

The scenario plays out like this: Redeemer is player A, marines player B

Deployment: Pitched battle the LRR is deployed exactly 24" away from the Marines, and steals the initiative so goes first (note this makes it a best case scenario)

Player A: Moves up 12" and pops smoke.

Player B: Marines move back 6", can even use run move to get a bit of extra distance if they want *(Possibly to get out of range of any terminators assaulting out of it).

Player A: Now there is a choice. You know that you must be at least 18" away from the marines. If you move 12" up and try to flame, you do little damage and are in the heart of the enemy where all their firepower can be brought on your LRR/terminators. If you stand still you block the enemy from advancing, and can wait to commit if in an objective mission as they will eventually have to move to get objectives.

If Player A now rushes forward, this will likely prove to be a mistake as the LRR and terminators will get swarmed and focus fired down. If you choose the second option, this type of role is better filled by the LRC as you can play this "goal keeper" role midfield better by adding a bit of pressure with the defensive weapons.

The tactic of deploying forward, retreating a turn to lure the opponent into overextending, and then counterattacking is very potent and a method I use to win many games. The LRR is particularly vulnerable to this. The only way this idea can work is if the LRR has a lot of company rushing down to your opponents board edge. That way, the forward movement will not take you out of position with respect to the rest of your forces. However, you are still giving up most of your shooting during the first two turns if your army is all moving up with you.

yeah like I said of course youre not going to hit them with a template if you start 24" away. we already know that.

When you propose a scenario that starts a LRR 12" away from an enemy on your turn, that means that you

A) Ended your previous turn 12" away and the enemy DID NOT REACT.
B) Ended your previous turn 6" away and the enemy moved back. If you ended your last movement phase 6" away you could have assaulted with your terminators, so I find it questionable as to how this could happen.
C) Ended your previous turn further than 12" away, but the enemy moved up to you. Their could be only 1 reason to do this that is a good one, and that is to take a few meltagun shots. Notice that I said a few, as a single meltagun has too low of a chance to be worth this maneuver. If he fired enough meltaguns that the LRR should have died but it didn't, then you made a mistake and got lucky.

In all cases, the LRR starting its turn 12" away from the enemy means that one of the two players made a mistake, or the dice have decided that the controller of the LRR is going to win the match.

or it means they dont want to let 2000 points of their stuff get bullied by a 250 point tank.
or it means that they want to hold objectives.
or it means I busted them out of a transport.
or it means they just consolidated from an assault.
or it means they tried to kill the redeemer and failed.

you're ignoring alot of scenarios. saying there's no reason for an meq squad ever to be within 12 inches of a redeemer is..... a non starter.
AF


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look if it were that simple why cant you just say theres no reason to ever have an meq squad within 20 inches of a crusader? or else the other guy is a bad player. in that case both models are useless bc the crusader will never deliver its terminators. you're giving the meq player an ammount of freedom that is not reflective of what happens in real life.