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Which Land Raider variant do you think is better?

All LR have good things and bad things..
Crusader has the biggest transport capacity
Redeemer is the next biggest transport capacity, has very powerful, though short range, weapons and is the cheapest
Godhammer has the smallest transport capacity but does have the longest range.

If I had to pick it would be the Crusader simply for the transport space there is on board.

Godhammer for firepower and the ability to transport your terminators.

Although the best thing for transport is the crusader, it doesn't have the bang for buck that I'd expect out of a 250pt heavy support choice.

Redeemers are just not useful, you'll only ever get one cannon to hit, and even then you have to be withing melta range. It excels against MeQ who generally have an option for a meltagun, combi-melta or multi-melta in all their units.

As a final point here's, something that I saw over at the B&C.

Both players deploy 12"forward

Godhammer - all weapons in range (even a pintle mounted weapon will be in range if you opponent gets first turn and moves) if transporting, can move 6" forward and fire either both lascannons for AT, its heavy bolter and lascannon for mixed fire or it can move an extra 6" and fire on lascannon or heavy bolter.

Crusader - No weapons in range (if second, assault cannon in range, hurricanes can be fired at minimum efficiency, pintles can be fired if equipped) can move 6" to fire its both its hurricanes at minimum efficiency, a hurricane at minimum efficiency and its assault cannon or move an extra 6" and fire its hurricane at maximum efficiency or its assault cannon.

Redeemer - no weapons in range (if second, the assault cannon may be in range) can move 6" and fire its assault cannon or move and extra 6" and fire its assault cannon, the flame storms are out of range.

In the second turn the redeemer can gets one of its flamestorms in range if the opponent doesn't move away from you, the crusader can fire at maximum efficiency depending how far you moved it in the first turn, the Godhammer is reliable and can fire all of its weapons at maximum effect or move and fire a few weapons.

This is before taking obstacles in the way, your opponent deploying further back and the myriad of short ranged anti-tank weapons (meltaguns, multi-meltas, blasters, fusion guns) and the possiblilty that your precious investment will be wasted on the first turn by long range anti-tank (darklances, fire prisms, lascannons, vanquishers and lots of lucky glancing hits)

Overall, if you want a reliable, all rounder yet heavy hitter choose the Godhammer, if you need a transport that needs to support assaults choose the crusader (remember to give it a multi-melta!), if your 10pts shy of 250pts and really, really want a AV 14 transport for your termies, choose the redeemer.

That my opinion at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote:All LR have good things and bad things..
Crusader has the biggest transport capacity
Redeemer is the next biggest transport capacity, has very powerful, though short range, weapons and is the cheapest
Godhammer has the smallest transport capacity but does have the longest range.

If I had to pick it would be the Crusader simply for the transport space there is on board.

Redeemers have the same transport capacity as Godhammers unless your BA. I have to say, if your BA you shouldn't be choosing godhammers, the only exception where I'd choose a different LR to a Godhammer.

Edit: spelling/grammer

Both...I like to keep my flamestorm cannons/hurricane bolters held on with blu-tack.

I couldn't decide which was the better build from that kit, so I swop them! I still haven't decided which is better. Different list builds have better LR variants.

The best solution is removable/exchangeable weapons!

Crusader is full of win IMO.

wizard12 wrote:
Redeemers have the same transport capacity as Godhammers unless your BA. I have to say, if your BA you shouldn't be choosing godhammers, the only exception where I'd choose a different LR to a Godhammer.

... No space wolves also have one less space, I'd forgotten smerfs got the extra seats

"Godhammer" is the pattern of Lascannon mounted on the Phobos Pattern Land Raider.

Tri wrote:

wizard12 wrote:
Redeemers have the same transport capacity as Godhammers unless your BA. I have to say, if your BA you shouldn't be choosing godhammers, the only exception where I'd choose a different LR to a Godhammer.

... No space wolves also have one less space, I'd forgotten smerfs got the extra seats

Ah right, I don't own the SW 'dex so I didn't know they're land raiders suffered from 'big hair' syndrome as well as their drop pods.

Guess its the price to pay for an awesome beard...

Its the redeemer by far. I can see the case for the crusader but the helios/godhammer - no. redeemer and crusader variants exist because its a lackluster tank. the purpose of those designs is to redeem the failure that is a helios.

Redeemer, for those assaulty cheapness flamestorm cannons, large capacity (normal SM usually won't use the full 16) and grenades for your termies. Assaulting through cover never was so much fun!

Redeemer does not have capacity 16, only 12. Crusader is the only 16.

Perhaps I misconstrued what you said, but as I read it you were saying redeemer has 16 capacity.

I am a big fan of the Crusader, though it is my assault termie delivery vehicle making the increased capacity a great asset, the move 6" and fire everything is great too. Though when I pull out the dual raider list (usually above 2000pts) I make the other the standard pattern.

Crusader mate. Crusaders all the way.

For Blood Angels... Redeemer equals a terminator assault squad plus a sanguinary priest in termy armor :-)

the redeemer has 3/4 of the crusader's capacity but a far more devastating weapon. its a good trade.

Crusader. Its the most mobile in terms of firepower so its excellent for a LR true purpose to transport an assault unit

Take the cost of two Razorbacks armed with Twin-linked Lascannons (75pts apiece), the difference between Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters on a Razorback and none on a Rhino, (5pts), and the Power of the Machine Spirit combining the qualities of Fire Control and Extra Armour for about 30pts or 15pts each. That makes for 185ts, and call it 5pts for Smoke Launcher and the Searchlight that only the Phobos uses for a T1 lascannoning. And it's an Assault Vehicle. If that's only 10pts, then the Land Raider Phobos is topping out at 200 pts. But then there's the Armour.

A Lascannon has a 5 to glance and 6 to penetrate a Land Raider, and 2 to glance and 3+ to penetrate a Rhino. A Lascannon has 4x the penetrating power against a Rhino.

Land Raider Damage or likelihood of result given glance + penetration results
Shaken (3/6)(1/6) + (1/6)(1/6) or 0.17
Stunned (1/6)(1/6) + (1/6)(1/6) or 0.06
Weapon Destroyed (1/6 + 1/6) or 0.06
Immobilized (1/6 + 1/6) or 0.06
Destroyed (0/6 + 2/6) or or 0.06

Razorback
Shaken (3/6)(1/6) + (1/6)(4/6) or 0.20
Stunned (1/6)(1/6) + (1/6)(4/6) or 0.14
Weapon Destroyed (1/60(1/6) + (1/6)(4/6) or 0.14
Immobilized (1/6)(1/6) + (1/6)(4/6) 0.14
Destroyed (1/6)(0/6) + (2/6)(4/6) 0.22

In other words, a Land Raider has an edge in a firefight between itself and two Twin-Linked Lascannon toting Razorbacks. It has the same transport ability plus assault vehicles. It has the same Lascannon firepower, but it also has a Heavy Bolter. If it just uses its Lascannons, it out guns them 4:1 purely on its relative ability to sustain damage from Lascannons.

It can engage both at the same time thanks to the Power of the Machine Spirit.

Nurglitch don't for get that most LR can now take a multi-melta for 10pts ... giving them an even bigger edge

They all get them, so it's a wash. However, a Phobos Land Raider has more anti-tank firepower outside of 12" than a Crusader with a Multi-Melta, since a Twin-Linked Lascannon is both more reliable and higher powered and longer ranged.

I play Dark Angels, and so don't have a redeemer option; Crusader all the way? Plus, we also have the lower capacity like space wolves; maybe the collective guilt of the chapter takes up the extra room?

Again, redeemers have a large (but NOT the largest) capacity, and a hugely devastating weapon. Truly works as an assault vehicle.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:Again, redeemers have a large (but NOT the largest) capacity, and a hugely devastating weapon. Truly works as an assault vehicle.

A truly devastating weapon that you can only get one to fire at a single unit at a time, will only hit 2-4 models depending on spacing and range, takes about 3 turns of movement to get into range and is within melta range of even infurnus pistols.

Just thought I'd point it out.

One of the biggest problems I have with the redeemer is exactly as stated above. Sure, your weapon is an absolute killer - no doubt there. But to use it you have to get in range of every melta weapon in your opponents army. Also, he will normally have to be already out of his vehicles, and have lined himself up for a nice shot. Basically it requires too much cooperation from your enemy. When I play against a redeemer, I find it pretty easy to avoid getting hit too hard, or more likely just easy to lure into a bad spot.

Redeemers encourage extremely aggressive play, which fits some lists but not many. More often than not the aggressiveness they promote results in over-extension.

crusader, capacity for SM and the output of med str shots make it deadly

As a DA I don't have the option of the Redeemer but after playing with the Crusader for awhile I really like it. 6'' move then unloading with 12 twin linked boltgun shots, 4 assault cannon shots, and a multi-melta as an opening for the Terminators who cook stuff with a heavy flamer and charge in with claws? Yes please. The only draw is there might not be anything left after that and the termies are standing in the open.

I don't use my Raiders as something to go after vehicles so the lascannon variant isn't my cup of tea, hopefully the RW will have killed most of the armor by the time im in assault range and even so the MM will do the job and whatever is left of the termies if need be. The Lascannon variant strikes me as more fire support than the delivery system that I see it as. I think a pair of LasPreds is more cost effective in that role if you've got the space for them.

The problem with the crusader variant is that hurricane bolters are just bolters. If you wanted bolters you can take a tactical squad.

Personally I tend to field the las cannon land raider the most, but I have been messing around with redeemers and I have found the results most pleasing. Flametorm cannons can wreck power armor and hordes that don't take melta, and the assault cannon can harrass all targets at the 24" range. Of course, no matter which LR you choose, the MM is a must buy. Doubly so if vulcan is in your list.

Except that tactical squads suck. Sure, the hurricane bolters are just TL bolters, but they are mobile and don't stop you from firing any other weapons when moving @ combat speed.

I generally use as few tactical marines as I can get away with in my SM lists, so the bolters on the crusader are not superfluous.

Thaylen wrote:The problem with the crusader variant is that hurricane bolters are just bolters. If you wanted bolters you can take a tactical squad.

Except these bolters are also able to use their 24" range on the move so not matter what you can basically shoot at anything within 30" of your raider

Redeemer! MEQ killing goodness

Crusader all the way.

For ba it seems like a no brainer.

Turn 1 move forward 12" and pop smoke, screw poms, and enjoy av14+smoke.

Turn 2 move forward another 12, poms 1 shot, and dump either 15dc+reclusiarch or 7assault termies+power armor priest+power armor hq which should be a reclusiarch or librarian with unleash rage.

The vast bulk of a land raiders point cost is its av14 assault ramp. If the main thing being purchased is the assault ramp then additional dakka will only slow down the lr and/or make the owner less likely to pop smoke before the passengers get out. More dakka doesn't just cost passenger space, it makes the lr less good at its primary job.