Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think there are two key thing that puts them to a useless status.

Jaws of the World Wolf and Psychic defense.

Jaws absolutely murders Carnifexes because it kills a carnifex 66% of the time, and if the Rune Priest is mounted or coming from a Drop Pod, you might as well say good bye to the whole unit. You hit a carnifex or two and you just lost that huge points investment. Not only that, but you still have the rediculous amount of shooting a Space Wolf army can put out to finish the squad. You put the Nurglith 700+ point squad on the table against a good space wolf player, and you might as well ask for a loss.

Psychic defense really hurts Tyranids too. The book is balanced around prohibitively priced Monstrous Creatures because they will have access to FNP. You put Eldar, Space Wolves, or any other army with decent psychic defense, and massive shooting, and you will loose your MCs quick, you won't have FNP for half the game (at least), and massive missle launcher spam will knock MCs off the table.

As a part time Tyranid player myself, I came to the realization that Tyranids are about infantry, and loads of it. I put more faith into a Gargoyle Screen, Ymgarl Genestealers, Hive Guard, and Trygons to do my anti-tank heavy lifting then I do anything else. Last game I played, my Gargoyles (with full upgrades) surrounded and wrecked to death a rhino, killing those inside, and took all the weapons off three predator annihilators in three turns because they where standing still to shoot at my Tyrant.

A good Tyranid list is about providing as much cover for yourself as possible (which is why Venomthropes are awesome), and making sure that everything in your list can threaten Vehicles in some way, while taking as little as possible that would be effected by Jaws.

Mahu:

1. Please spell my name correctly.

2. You don't need Feel No Pain, it's just nice to have.

3. Jaws of the World Wolf. You know what's interesting about this? It comes on Space Wolf Rune Priests, who are easier to kill than Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Like those models when they carry the Lash of Submission, they cannot cast the power if they are locked in close combat, and that power has absolutely no effect on stuff with Wings.

I think it's a mistake for Tyranid players to rely on the Deathleaper's special rules and the Shadow in the Warp for psychic defense. Problematic psyckers can be locked down in combat and killed. But that's not possible if one's entire Elite contingent is made up of Hive Guard and Zoanthropes. Lictors and Ymgarl Genestealers perform an important function in assassinating such synergistic characters.

Likewise it's no coincidence that the Heavy Venom Cannon is 36" and S9 - Rune Priests can be knocked out of Rhinos and instantly killed from a safe distance. Likewise Stranglethorns can pile the wounds on such units from 36" away.

A Lictor can kill a Blood Angel's Sanguinary Priest, and be killed in turn, but the exchange leaves the Blood Angels player without a lynchpin in their strategy. Likewise Space Marine Librarians, Rune Priests, Imperial Guard Command Squads, and so on.

Just as a Carnifex brood needs to use its ranged weapons to suppress the enemy, you need units like Lictors and Genestealers able to cover the advance by locking down and killing enemy firepower.

If a Rune Priest in a Drop Pod can kill your entire brood with a string of 3+s, then maybe you shouldn't have set them up in a straight line...

If the Tyranid army has lots of obvious rule-based synergies, it has all of the traditional Warhammer 40,000 tactical ones like the one you describe (surrounding the Rhino - there's another idea I once proposed that was rejected some months ago as being impossible when facing 'good players'). Massive firepower and psychic defense can be handled by employing vanguard units to lock the enemy down.

The fex's base is quite large, it's not hard to line up two or even all three with one JotWW shot.

Space Wolves are also quite powerful in Close Combat. Any mass units of troops charging into them will likely be torn to shreds as well, even if they win combat. Good CC psykers tend to not get bogged down as easily as you make them out to be, while ranged Psykers usually sit behind enemy lines, meaning you have to run the gauntlet to get to them. That's the second part: you have to get to them. By the time you travese the board with foot sloggers they'd have gotten two or three turns worth of shooting off already.

Back onto the Heavy Venom Cannon. You are making it sound much more awesome than it really is. While it does have the stats to cause Instant Death on any character, it's prohibtively expensive and stupidfyingly inaccurate. A single Hive Guard can do the same job much accurately for a tad bit more cost than a lone Heavy Venom Cannon (and for a fraction of the cost that it takes to take the fex in the first place).

Daeth Leaper and SitW is used because they are reliable psychic defenses, not situational based like charging in and locking them down. If I have a Psyker in charging range, but a tank nearby dishing out massive damage to my horde troops, I'm going after the tank and dealing with the psyker later, because the time it'll take me to deal with the psyker, the rest of my army will likely get wiped off the field. Finally it comes down to cost economy again. I can make any unit in the Nid codex nigh unbeatable, but the cost would skyrocket. The alternativels are cheap and effective, there's no reason to make several deathstars just to prove a point.

Nurglitch wrote:
words about charging psykers

And you are supposed to do what again when said psyker is sitting in the backfield sniping you with 24"-plus-hull-size abilities out of his 35 point tinfoil box of invulnerability? Now I admit I don't consider Jaws of the Cheese Wolf a major threat as you almost never see it and when you do just play keep away and you're cool, but this is REALLY not the case with every other psyker and their abilities that are a decent threat. Talking about tying them up in assault with anything, but most specifically the craptacular Lictor since you mentioned him, is just not gonna work nearly often enough. Astute players may have noticed the codex is pretty lacking in anything super cool like 36" Str 9 AP 2 lascannons. A heavy venom cannon with template scatter, AP 4 and an additional -1 on the damage chart just doesn't cut it and Shadow in the Warp just plain got kicked in the junk.

3 basic fexes do seem like a viable choice when subterranian assaults just wont cut it (like say against a horde army or something). It's just a shame to see all those nify upgrades Jes made 4-5 years ago (cant really remember when the fex kit came out) going to waste.

In the 4th ed book 3 fexes with Venom Cannons would have been good, since they could have BS4, get Venom Cannons and Barbed Stranglers and dish out so many templates for a modest price. Taking 3 of them would have been manditory if the option was open. With the loss of the heavier armor (allowing them to survive Krak Missiles), BS upgrade, and jack in cost, they are only good as massive blobs of suicide squads.

Short answer... yes.
Long answer... affirmative.

The biggest problem is that they compete against other units in the nid codex that can do their job for cheaper and better.

The other problem is that they are just target practice for some of the more popular 5th armies that you are likely to face a lot meaning IG, DE, and SW.

1. Please spell my name correctly.

Is that your real name.

2. You don't need Feel No Pain, it's just nice to have.

I agree, but on a 700 point unit, and figuring comparable number of shots that will come your way from such things as DE Venom Spam, Space Wolves, and any decent IG list, I wouldn't espect them to last long. Statistically, it only takes 8 missile launcher shots to kill a Carnifex out of cover. 16 in your best case scenario of having 4+ cover. Average Space Wolf shooting will put down a Carnifex a turn, and then kill the second with Jaws of the World Wolf. After the second turn, it would be a small miracle if that unit is left. FNP grants you the ability to stick around longer, and is almost necessary to make sure a unit that costly lives.

3. Jaws of the World Wolf. You know what's interesting about this? It comes on Space Wolf Rune Priests, who are easier to kill than Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Like those models when they carry the Lash of Submission, they cannot cast the power if they are locked in close combat, and that power has absolutely no effect on stuff with Wings.

You do realize that it is a 24" range attack, that doesn't even need to see you to be effective that Tyranids almost have no way to reliably shut it down. Yes, you can kill him easily, or lock him down in close combat, but here is a question, how the hell are you doing that? The Rune Priest will sit in a Rhino in cover near the long fangs and have no real reason to engage with you. Especially when he is making double his points back every time he cast that power at one of your carnifexes. You can try and get the drop on him with outflankers, gargoyles, Tyrants with wings, etc. But that doesn't stop him from having at least two turns to cast that power, killing 2 of your Carnifexes, while the missile launchers or other shooting he has takes out anything that is getting close.

It the fundamental problem with that match up and why TMCs never earn their points back in any sort of tournament, not unless you are fielding MCs that are specifically hard to kill with Jaws, but this is a discussion about Carnifexes which fall down holes so often, it isn't even funny.

I think it's a mistake for Tyranid players to rely on the Deathleaper's special rules and the Shadow in the Warp for psychic defense. Problematic psyckers can be locked down in combat and killed. But that's not possible if one's entire Elite contingent is made up of Hive Guard and Zoanthropes. Lictors and Ymgarl Genestealers perform an important function in assassinating such synergistic characters.

I agree that is what they are there for, but you also have to take into consideration your opponents deployment. Lictors have to sit a turn and get past a rhino to make it into combat. Ymgarls are my favorite for disruption tactics, but are still going to have a hard time reaching, and they don't have grenades, so you are looking at potentially loosing that combat. They are very pricey models so I don't expect any list to have more then ten. If a Rune Priest is hanging in a rhino in cover with a unit of Grey Hunters, they should be able to kill a healthy amount of stealers before they strike.

Likewise it's no coincidence that the Heavy Venom Cannon is 36" and S9 - Rune Priests can be knocked out of Rhinos and instantly killed from a safe distance. Likewise Stranglethorns can pile the wounds on such units from 36" away.

IF they hit. Because the Rune Priest Rhino can hug cover, you are looking at a your effectiveness to actually kill the tank fairly unlikely. Statistically, you have to hit with the HVC because an average scatter takes the hole off the vehicle. So in your 700 point unit of three, one of them most likely hits, you most likely cause a result, and they have a 50/50 shot of shaking that completely. And then, when you do roll that damage die, you are a minus one anyways, so you are more then likely to cause nothing more then a shaken result.

HVCs are garbage, I would much rather assault a rhino with 40 str. 4 Gargoyle attacks, fully surrounding a vehicle and killing all inside, something very doable on turn two because of the Gargoyles speed and for a bargain price.

A Lictor can kill a Blood Angel's Sanguinary Priest, and be killed in turn, but the exchange leaves the Blood Angels player without a lynchpin in their strategy. Likewise Space Marine Librarians, Rune Priests, Imperial Guard Command Squads, and so on.

You are assuming you can kill the rhino at range. Blood Angels are my primary army, and I know I am stacking that bubble. A lictor killing a priest is no where near a guarantee. You assume that you have enough firepower to kill the tank, and that a lictor can single handily take out the priest with only 4 attacks, the possibility is there, but it is not a probability, and it isn't living through the retaliation.

Just as a Carnifex brood needs to use its ranged weapons to suppress the enemy, you need units like Lictors and Genestealers able to cover the advance by locking down and killing enemy firepower.

Both are going to take time to get there. Genestealers are one of the best units in the book, but you can deploy in such away to limit their effectiveness when they outflank, and if they infiltrate, it will be hard for them to get cover and still be close. Your opponent will either react to your deployment or have an extra turn of shooting. Land Raider Crusaders and Bolters in cover can make Genestealers go away. You will probably be able to deliver the unit, but are you hitting the Rune Priest, probably not.

You can surpress the Rhine Priest fire power by shacking the tank, but seriously, all the Rune Priest needs to do is get one TMC and it already paid for itself. And if your Carnifexes are staying in that 36" range away, they are not doing much other then shaking transports. Maybe killing one. Is that a wise investment of points? I really don't think so, not when staying at range just means your opponents have more time to shoot you. I know all I have to do to beat the list you are postulating is out assault and break the genestealers, and then just sit back on an objective and finish the Carnifexes at range. At a certain point you have to commit them to get an objective/ more kill points off of me, and then they die.

If a Rune Priest in a Drop Pod can kill your entire brood with a string of 3+s, then maybe you shouldn't have set them up in a straight line...

You do now how drop pods work right? How are you arranging the Carnifexes where you can't draw a straight line between two of them. Like I keep saying, the Rune Priest more then accomplishes his goal if he kills one. But more then likely, even if you deploy the carnifexes in a triangle, he is still hitting two and probably killing both, even if you factor the price of the grey hunter unit and drop pod, the Space Wolf player still got more then his points investment in killing those two creatures. And still splash damaging the line across multiple other creatures.

If the Tyranid army has lots of obvious rule-based synergies, it has all of the traditional Warhammer 40,000 tactical ones like the one you describe (surrounding the Rhino - there's another idea I once proposed that was rejected some months ago as being impossible when facing 'good players'). Massive firepower and psychic defense can be handled by employing vanguard units to lock the enemy down.

I agree, the Gargoyles where and in some place still over looked in many internet places, favoring the more shooty tyranid approach. Personally, then best Tyranids builds are the ones that can crash into the enemy early and overwhelm MSU tank spam with massive str 4 assaults which almost every unit has access to and in such numbers, that you swing the bell curve in your favor. Units like Zoanthropes and Hive Guard have their place as well, but if you are not locking down fire power or overwhelming their target priority, you will get shot off the table. It will just happen.

But in reference to the humble Carnifex, between the cost of a unit, Jaws of the world wolf, IG firepower, Space Wolf Powers, Blood Angles access to massive AP 2 (no FNP), etc. etc. etc. they are hard to justify their points and then you have things like Tyrgons (who are quicker for about the same points), and Tyrannofexes (who shoot better and are tougher to kill). The Carnifex becomes the red headed step child of the book.

If I where to field them in this current meta, it would be as dakka fexes and in units of 2. At 380 points a squad, they are still pricey, but I have more faith in 24 str 6 shots and it's ability to bust most transports. On average, that is 18 hits that are either causing 3 results on AV 12, 6 on AV 11, 06 killing 5 long fangs, making them fall back because of the leadership penalty. In addition, they can be buffed with Onslought so they are advancing even further and applying that fire power sooner, and you can still take a Tyrgon or two to draw fire from them, support them with Hive Guard, and get the jump on your opponent with Gargoyles, Hormagaunts (that can outflank with a Tyrant), and Genestealers.

Mahu what's your stance onf Naked Fexes (two scything talon and nothing else) VS the Dakka fex you listed? I have two unbuilt fexes lying around and am contemplating whether I should make them into Tervigons or build em up as Screamer Fexes (which does tempt me a little).

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Mahu what's your stance onf Naked Fexes (two scything talon and nothing else) VS the Dakka fex you listed? I have two unbuilt fexes lying around and am contemplating whether I should make them into Tervigons or build em up as Screamer Fexes (which does tempt me a little).

Just use them as Tervigons. Thank me later. Alternatively you can do what I did and build them as whatever kind of Carnifex you want and run them as Tervigons whenever you want. Any cheese huffing loser babies that try to call you out on it can just be told to suck eggs until there's an official model of any sort at all, ever, anywhere. Ditto for them trying to give you static about the size of the base, just say 'what is the official size of the released model in the Tyranid second wave model support? OH RIGHT WE DIDN'T GET ONE BLOOD ANGELS NEEDED IT MORE. Shut up, go away.' By their precious rules there's no defense to their own position.

They better not suck! I've got a pair of them on order to pick up tomorrow at the FLGS! Going to build em both with twin-twin-linked Devourers.

SumYungGui wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Mahu what's your stance onf Naked Fexes (two scything talon and nothing else) VS the Dakka fex you listed? I have two unbuilt fexes lying around and am contemplating whether I should make them into Tervigons or build em up as Screamer Fexes (which does tempt me a little).

Just use them as Tervigons. Thank me later. Alternatively you can do what I did and build them as whatever kind of Carnifex you want and run them as Tervigons whenever you want. Any cheese huffing loser babies that try to call you out on it can just be told to suck eggs until there's an official model of any sort at all, ever, anywhere. Ditto for them trying to give you static about the size of the base, just say 'what is the official size of the released model in the Tyranid second wave model support? OH RIGHT WE DIDN'T GET ONE BLOOD ANGELS NEEDED IT MORE. Shut up, go away.' By their precious rules there's no defense to their own position.

As per the rules of this site (check the link in my signature, if necessary), please endeavor to tone it down a bit, OK?

SumYungGui wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Mahu what's your stance onf Naked Fexes (two scything talon and nothing else) VS the Dakka fex you listed? I have two unbuilt fexes lying around and am contemplating whether I should make them into Tervigons or build em up as Screamer Fexes (which does tempt me a little).

Just use them as Tervigons. Thank me later. Alternatively you can do what I did and build them as whatever kind of Carnifex you want and run them as Tervigons whenever you want. Any cheese huffing loser babies that try to call you out on it can just be told to suck eggs until there's an official model of any sort at all, ever, anywhere.

Welcome to the GW Hobby. The traditional approach when there is no official model is to take it as an opportunity to creatively convert a model to attractively represent the unit you want, in such a way that it is visually distinct from the original model/unit.

Calling people names may be accepted in middle school (although I suspect that the teachers will frown on it, and honestly, it's better to cultivate more mature habits), but is not usually a viable option among adults.

SumYungGui wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Mahu what's your stance onf Naked Fexes (two scything talon and nothing else) VS the Dakka fex you listed? I have two unbuilt fexes lying around and am contemplating whether I should make them into Tervigons or build em up as Screamer Fexes (which does tempt me a little).

Just use them as Tervigons. Thank me later. Alternatively you can do what I did and build them as whatever kind of Carnifex you want and run them as Tervigons whenever you want. Any cheese huffing loser babies that try to call you out on it can just be told to suck eggs until there's an official model of any sort at all, ever, anywhere. Ditto for them trying to give you static about the size of the base, just say 'what is the official size of the released model in the Tyranid second wave model support? OH RIGHT WE DIDN'T GET ONE BLOOD ANGELS NEEDED IT MORE. Shut up, go away.' By their precious rules there's no defense to their own position.

Necesary, didn't think so.
(sadpandaface)

However using a kitted out carnifex with devourers is not a wysiwyg Tervigon and wouldn't be allowed at a wysiwyg tournament.

That's the rub though, what is a wysiwyg Tervigon? I'm all for getting creative and making your own but the guy has already bought a carnifex and asked if he should use it as one or the other. I say use it as both. Unfortunately people will attempt to hassle him about it, so I'm arming him with the defense for the situation ahead of time. If they want to spout off rules and try to lawyer him into a corner he's got a defense ready to go.

Most tervigons i've seen (including the 3 i've made) use the scything talons as legs instead of weapons, putting the tervigon into a hovering stance over its "babies". They fit nicely on a 60x100mm base, like the Trygon.

Ok, trying to bring this back on topic...

Once the new codex came out I initially shied away from the carnifex. The trygon tooks it place in cc and the tyrannofex outdid it as a gun beast. Now I am experimenting with a lot more lists and I'm finding the carnifex has a role to play.

At first I tried running 2 carnifexes w/ dakka and attached 2 primes. FnP on the unit and an easy to get cover save made them pretty hardcore. That unit won me a lot of games...until I faced one of our SW players. For a true allcomers list I need a hammer unit that really works in all situations and this unit isn't it. The cost is high and it's practically an auto-lose against SW since you have invested so many points into a unit that will be destroyed turn 2/3. You can shy away with the fexes, but that's not really what they are for. You need to be charging them forward contesting objectives or rampaging through their lines earning KP's, not sitting back trying to avoid JotWW.

I have now moved onto using them singly in a spod armed with devourers (2 of these plus a trygon makes a very nice DS element). Deploying behind the spod still gives you a nice cover save (and any ML's they use against the spod is one less being used against your important MC's). Devourers are great against AV10, not bad against AV11 and it's reasonable to get side armour of a chimera when you spod onto a table (the one containing a 5 man CCS plasma squad). They also work well against MEQ's that are out of transports (long fangs). Ideally you want to use this as a kind of suicide unit. His primary role is to reduce the amount of threats coming back at you (plasma from IG and ML's from SM are the big ones). Once these are dealt with it's ok if the fex dies, you just saved the rest of your army from a ton of hurt.

Now saying all this I should also mention that of course it does depend on your playstyle. I use my fexes in conjunction with large amounts of stealers. The turn they crack open the transports is the turn the contents get eaten by 20 stealers with poison. Sometimes I find the S6 shots aren't quite enough so my primary means of popping tranports are of course hive guard, but having 24 TL S6 shots on standby is a great backup.

And some food for thought. No other army can spam S6-8 like nids can. We can fit 60 TL S6 shots from hive tyrants and fexes (not in broods) and 18 S8 shots from hive guard for only 1420 points. All of this for 3 maxed out slots and ALL on T6 models.

I don't think there is any problem with the Carnifax. The reason why they are not popular is while the Carnifax is a decent unit the Trygon is an excellent unit, and they compete for the same forge org slot.

They have different uses. The trygon handles assault better no questions asked. But put it up against a landraider and you aren't guaranteed to get a pen. The turn you DS in you are also aren't doing very much. 6 S5 shots does far worse against any AV compared to 12 TL S6 shots (if you take that route).

For me its the only route to take. You want a gunfex vs a tyrannofex or a cc fex vs a trygon...no thankyou. S9 is great against high av in cc but that is just 1 situation where it ousthines the trygon in cc (having assault grenades as well but I think that's it). But dakka...no other heavy choice can do that better and it's useful against a multitude of opponents and units.

While it's true that the first turn a Trygon comes in he can't pull out his full bag of tricks, the Carnifex either suffers from the exact same thing if he's in a pod (and equals Trygon's points for lesser stats with the pod cost in) or spends 2-3 turns doing even worse running across the field waiting for his whopping four wounds to give out on him. If the carnifex had any one seriously defining feature that made him stand out he'd have a use but he just doesn't.

If you could make a complex unit of carnifexes for example and juggle wounds around to keep them alive until regeneration had a chance to work they'd be a jaw-dropping 'armored fist' right up the center. Nigh unstoppable, and then worth the 600+ points.

If they had some seriously threatening weapons at range they could be a 'hard as nails gun platform' but they get nothing special that nobody else cannot get or do better than with their own weapons.

If they had some kind of special trick, rule, ability or psychic power, something, anything to set them above the Trygon an argument could be made. Str 9 is unfortunately not enough with the rest of his stats and there's no real toys he gets that make him stand out.

Devourers.

The Assault Fex seems to have turned into the Trygon in the current edition, while the heavy Gunfex turned into the Tyrannofex in the end. Dakka fexes dont seem cost-effective for the amount of shots they put out though, a Tyrannofex can easily put out just as much firepower using it's two other weapons other than the rupture cannon.

As for me, I'm probably gonna build the fexes up as Screamer Killers, as I've always liked the look of the Bioplasma head and two scything talons, and use them as Tervigons (they will also have attached Adrenal Glands and such, since WYSIWYG means that I can always take off upgrades as long as they're represented, but I cant tack them on). Screamer Killers will also bring a hint of nostalgia to my nid army to the true glory days of the Carnifex.

If taking Carnifexes, dual Devourers are honestly the only way I'd use them...(that or Venom Cannon+Devourer). It shoots and either countercharges or finishes off disabled vehicles...

Really, the Trygon is the biggest trap unit Tyranids have IMO. No Invulnerable, exceptionally hard to give it cover, and using it *requires* you to plunge into the heart of the enemy guns. With the Carnifex, you can at least dictate some of the terms by which you engage...

Sure you can dictate what part of the board you want him to die on as he marches across getting shot the whole way until his spectacular four wounds give out. Unless you want to spring for the mycetic spore and bump his costs up even more.

No monstrous creatures in the codex have an invul save for shooting so what does that mean?

Ya know what, I'll be generous and say you manage to somehow give him 4+ cover every single step of the way from all angles with no possibility of getting around it while not slowing his already fleet-lacking speed down even more and we'll say he's cool enough to essentially have 50% more 'virtual' wounds owing to a 50% cover save. After jumping through all those hoops in a supremely unrealistic situation you have an effective six wounds on a walking monstrous creature gun platform for 190 points with an 18" range and stunningly low maneuverability.

For 10 more points you can get better or equal stats in every single category except strength on an identically equipped Hive Tyrant who can get the same supposed advantage for cover if that's the only thing you're worried about. Or for the exact same price you can get a Trygon with better stats than the Carnifex who doesn't need to mess about with 'virtual' wounds and cover saves to take six shots before he dies, he actually has six wounds, along with better stats across the board and when you get HIM behind a decent building and get some cover he has an effective 9 virtual wounds. And a built-in mycetic spore for free that you have the option of using or not, where a carnifex in a spore MUST use the spore and by the rules of the FAQ cannot be deployed separate from his spore if the situation would be advantageous. And free dual scything talons, while not sacrificing his shooting attack at the same time. Don't forget fleet either. Plus for the price of the carnifex above plus spore you can make him a synapse creature on his own.

It's not fun to admit but the carnifex has been outclassed and has no special tricks that someone else cannot do better, and usually for cheaper.

So let me get this straight. You're camping a Trygon in cover..why?

The same reason you'd theoretically camp a carnifex in cover I suppose. You tell me. I'm just running with the example you're trying to put forth, and applying numbers to it.

A Devilfex and Deviltyrant provide suppression fire against light vehicles and help discourage infantry getting funny ideas about disembarking against an advancing gunline. Trygons do not contribute to such a list until the enemy is practically upon them.

Trygons have their own shooting weapon and it's quite effective against GEQs due to actually having an AP. Carnifexes will also be running against the front of the enemy tanks, statistically facing more heavy armour. Trygons, however, can choose to pop behind the enemy and attack their rear. If upgraded to a prime, they put out just as many shots, but again with an AP. While the Prime is more expensive than a Carnifex with onyl TL Devourers, it has alot more perks going for it than a normal Fex (namely, Synapse, the ability to deepstrike, and more wounds). It is also much better in close combat, because it retains it's dual Scything Talons and has innately higher Initiative. A Dakka Fex is more accurate in terms of long range, while a Trygon can put out half or just as much shots while being just as/more than accurate in close combat.

Realistically, a Trygon will not be shooting save if it Deepstrikes. One Trygon is an annoyance. 3 dictate the opponent castles, and you won't be getting off rear shots anyway. Heck, chances are you won't be deepstriking anywhere near him if your opponent is competent. Also, S6 TL>AP 5, especially due to the ease infantry have in finding cover.

Very few armies do nothing but heavy armor; the only ones of note are 6-Pred BA (though that uses Razorbacks), Mechdar (though it's best defined as "medium." That, and due to their cost, and the general expense required to gear Eldar up for melee, stunlocking their tanks is ususally good enough) and Ork Battlewagon spam (and even that one usually has light armor, in the form of move-blocking Warbuggies). I suppose if you're feeling cheeky, the 6-Ironclad Marine list qualifies too...though that uses Razorback/Typhoon support. So...yeah.

Rear armor tends to be 10, rarely 12, and only one 14 (Land Raider or Monolith), so the 6 shots do have some uses. Front armor tend to be 11 at the lowest, with 12-13 being much more common, and 14 still being plentiful (although not as common as 13), meaning that in most cases Devourers cant even penetrate it, or glance it in some cases. The rear armor of transports is almost universally 10, same goes for both the rear and side armor of artillery weapons (which are prime targets for the Trygon).

There is also another, underlooked value of the Trygon: it's a shock factor. Whether or not your opponent is used to Trygons poping up behind him, he will definately focus firepower his way, leaving your units a one-turn sanctuary from enemy fire. His alternative would be to have a 6 attack MC tearing up his back ranks which, if he is actually stupid enough to choose that route (remember the Trygon also has Fleet, so it doesnt always have to shoot) he's screwed to the nth degree.

As someone who uses both Tyrgons and carnifexes regularly here's my two cents.

1) Carnifexes can get cover from other tyranid models. That just isn't happening with a trygon. That means you don't have to hover around terrain. Gargoyles or a host of medium sized bugs will easily provide them a cover save.

2) Being a multi-model unit Carnifexes can be joined by tyranid primes. Primes get psuedo T6 vs shooting, carnifexes get synapse support and more ways to get cover saves. This is a big reason why carnifexes are worth looking into. Infact I'd probably not bother with carnifexes without taking primes (except in cases of model availability in your collection, something I can relate to).

3) Carnifexes can provide cover saves to other MCs, primarily your tervigons or perhaps a tyrant. Trygons snakelike body just doesn't do this well at all. Units of carnifexes are also good at provinding cover to units behind them, much like a kan unit does (although this isn't typically leveraged its available for a devgant unit or similar).

4) Carnifexes get more shooting options. Sorry but Trygon shooting doesn't compare well at all -- carnifexes are superior here even with the added cost. In particular dual twin linked brainleach worms are downright nasty and great multitaskers -- able to kill infantry and quite readily shake-lock vehicles. The -1 leadership on morale checks is also not to be underestimated. Space Wolves in particular are suceptible to ld7 morale checks. Anecdotal, but my carnifex deathstar made a full unit of TWC run off table before being able to charge -- and the odds of this happening aren't all that bad if you can pull it off.

5) JotWW is a pain, but its not like its taken in mass quantites. I'd even go so far to say that most SW players don't even take it. But hey if JotWW keeps you up at night then don't take carnifexes but also don't take tervigons, hive guard or any number of Tyranid units that get raped by this power. And if we are talking hard counters, ML spam kill trygons almost as easily (if not easier considering range and psychic tests/counters) and is much more common.

I think JotWW is almost a red herring of sorts, but perhaps I see it taken less then others do in their area.

6) There's a number of really good players (eg not me ) that are using carnifexes. Hulksmash and Synaps3 come to mind. Here's a link to one of synaps3's posts detailing carnifexes in game effects and uses. Look specifically at 1) and 3). My own experience matches his own for the most part.

7) All that said, carnifexes are overpriced in my opinion and only work in a very narrow style of lists. But they can work and do work quite well if you leverage everything they have to offer.