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Best counter to Teclis is lizardmen.
Becalming is the only way for him to risk not meeting the casting value, but it is the blood statuette of spite that has the T2 ubercaster sweating.

The poster also had "Multiple" feedback scrolls. Those one per army items then....

Becalming is awesome, stops a LOT of uber spells as well.

Also, can we please stop block quoting walls of text? Forum etiquette and all that...

Dark Elves will have a horrible time eliciting much sympathy from most. Their bag of tricks is quite deep.

Airmaniac wrote:Most Dark Elf players field Shades / Harpies / Dark Riders. Charging into Teclis' unit and directing attacks against Teclis would probably work just fine as he is T2 with no saves of any kind.

There are a couple of problems with this tactic, sadly. Teclis is usually stuck with something that will stick around, like Phoenix Guard. Like the rest of the HE army, they strike before those suicide bombers do, so the harpies/shades/riders will simply be dead before they have a chance to swing. The other issue is that you don't have to put him up front for non-LoS casting. For instance, most of the Lore of Shadow is just "hex/buff this unit within x inches".

Actually with TLOS he can see stuff from the back row anyway.

Yeah that's true, good point!

I thought there was a rule that forced characters to be in the front rank of a unit, except when the entire front rank already consists of command models and other characters.

With full command and 2 other charracters Teclis (and any other character actually) can easily be pushed back to the 2nd rank.

However HE characters arent cheap, so that's a full on point sink right there.

The term youre looking for is deathstar
And HE have the only caster based deathstar (AFAIK).

Its not even really a deathstar, certainly not if the bunker is phoenix guard. they dont kill enough....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wouldnt a slann plus TG list be a potential death star? Cheap Saurus heros to provide hard T5 S7 in the front rank, etc?

If it is the main damage dealer of the army it is a deathstar, even if a bit whimpy.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Its not even really a deathstar, certainly not if the bunker is phoenix guard. they dont kill enough....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wouldnt a slann plus TG list be a potential death star? Cheap Saurus heros to provide hard T5 S7 in the front rank, etc?

Yeah, I'd call 2S5 attacks per model, that is stubborn and immune to psych, testing on Ld9 (or 10) with cold blood a death star.

Of course, high elves can do it with a unit that is immune to magic, which is a huge edge for death stars.

-Matt

Yes, in fact if lore of life is used it becomes a category all in itself, the dreaded "lifestar".

Or with lore of light, becomes an ASF Init 10 3 attack each monster....

Lightstar is nice but it pretty much requires a more expencive slaan (due to cupped hands).

HE archers are range 30.
Repeater crossbows are 24 inch range.
A canny HE player should be out of range of repeater x-bows range at least until turn 2.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:HE archers are range 30.
Repeater crossbows are 24 inch range.
A canny HE player should be out of range of repeater x-bows range at least until turn 2.

Ignore their archers and shoot something else? Use Shades with Scout?
I'd think the best way to fight HE is to spam the few high toughness stuff we have, Dragon lord, Manticore, Chariots or Hydras. Target saturation should allow enough of them to reach combat and womp the T3 elves, with Impact hits, Breath Weapons and Thunderstomp. Engage their infantry block from the front with our cheaper core, which should out rank them and hit them on the side with your hammers.
As for Deathstars we have the perfect counter, send in a Dreadlord with PoK, Crown of Command, full armor on Cold One/Pegasus and tie them up.

Yeah sorry for the 'necrobump' i wasn't quite finished talking about this, moved to another town, and took a while to get my internet services moved.

Dark elves don't require much sympathy honestly, and I play them among quite a few other armies. Im not realy sure how i get that Dark elves were superior in 7th? Not in melee that i can see, a HE player was just about asured of killing the entire attack back of any Dark Elf unit, with just swordmasters alone. The Hydra when played would never make it across the table with full wounds, and then swordmasters would easily finish it off before anything eventfull occurred. Dark Elf shooty was pretty good, but not so good when outranged.

As for 8th well, everyone mostly missed the point. Yeah i just intended to write "a feedback scroll' what i ment by a couple was a poor reference to multiple games hopefully having the tactic pan out, but that wasn't realy clear on my part. Sorry. I was illustrating a single First Magic phase on the offensive that i felt was an average of what will occurr on The FIRST turn. I've certainly played enough of them in that same circumstance. That is the way they average for ME. Of course Teclis might whiff his dispells and your magic might do well, especialy as the rounds go on, but that was as opposed to how his phase will likely go with the examples i mentioned earlier, him having a minimum 4 power die (with banner along) and you having a minimum one dispell die as the DE player, and him being pretty likely to max out on 12 die, rolling IF at least once a phase, And you likely winding up with less than 6 dispell dice, Due to averages, and his 2-6 bonus die

The point was that Teclis is worth way more than what i feel his points cost, and while his awsomeness is right and correct with the fluff, (fluff wise the DE were also supposed to have come from the most disciplined and warlike veterans of all elves, I might add) I don't think the high elves needed to be handed a Better version of thier opposite army's Best Combat Rule... and even still bend thierown rules further with the Great Weapon Errata? They have better initiative than 80-90% of all enemies regardless, i don't think they would be feeling the pain on that with all they have going for them as an army. I'm realy just trying to see if anyone thinks this is Not the case? I'd like to hear a real reason why if anyone has one.

RuneOfGromril wrote:

Dark elves don't require much sympathy honestly, and I play them among quite a few other armies. Im not realy sure how i get that Dark elves were superior in 7th? Not in melee that i can see, a HE player was just about asured of killing the entire attack back of any Dark Elf unit, with just swordmasters alone. The Hydra when played would never make it across the table with full wounds, and then swordmasters would easily finish it off before anything eventfull occurred. Dark Elf shooty was pretty good, but not so good when outranged.

You never really played 7th did you?
lol, back in 7th, ASF BG (Whether a Deathstar unit or not) trump swordmasters hand down. (actually they trump just about anyone)
Yea, like everyone just throw units right into combat in 7th! March Blocking and redirecting dictates the battle and DE is very good with that. Between Dark Riders, Harpies and Shades we can pick our battles easily.
Our magic defense were also better, RoH shuts down spells and our characters can get cheap MR.
The Hydras shouldnt be in melee last edition unless the odds are really good, it was mostly a mobile flame tank that just runs around their units and breath every turn. I like them better last edition.
The Shade deathstar also kills just about anything in their army.

Boy I can go on for days about this.

And yes, we all know how freakin awesome Teclis is, get over it already.

Jackster, perhaps i just played with High Elf players who knew a little more about counter tactics. I never saw black guard make it close enough to own anyone in 7th, and setting up with asf in 7th was a good tactic sure, but im not sure i follow how it owned 7th ed. Most of the games I saw with high elves in 7th were a shooting/magic game followed by melee to mop up if at all, and rarely saw the darkies get close... In 8th ed I see a stronger magic game by HE and shooting that gets fewer turns, followed by melee that is at least twice as effective for high elves as it was in 7th, with the small difference of High elves actualy recieving casualties in the melee.
I never said they were invincible, i just said i don't see why they needed an upgrade... especialy in the manner i mentioned of getting the opposing army's best rule, and to boot having a special errata for GWs to ASF even over the existing WHF Rule, which striking on initiative would have carried them pretty far?

Odd, I saw the exact opposite at UK GT / ETC during 7th, and if you think those HE players didnt know about "counter tactics" you're mistaken....

IN 7th ed you had shades outshooting your missile troops, and being almost unhittable in return. Dark riders would out manouver your troops, march blocking and not allowing you chance to shoot the advancing blocks. DE lord on dragon with RoH sat in your lines, eating troops and entirely shutting teclis / book of hoeth mage down.

HE in 7th were owned in every way by DE.

HoverBoy wrote:With full command and 2 other charracters Teclis (and any other character actually) can easily be pushed back to the 2nd rank.

At which point you are looking at a full on deathstar, which a canny DE player will play to draw and never touch that unit, instead wiping out the support stuff.

Sure, it sucks to not win. But against that sorta BS, even a draw is a victory of sorts, because you've prevented him from winning.

(And in a real war, I'd never even come within spellcasting range. I'd just make sure that every supply wagon sent their way would be used to feed my army, not his. Sooner or later, they are gonna get awful hungry...)

Vulcan wrote:[
(And in a real war, I'd never even come within spellcasting range.

You'd either be the best or the worst general of all time.

RuneOfGromril wrote:I never said they were invincible, i just said i don't see why they needed an upgrade... especialy in the manner i mentioned of getting the opposing army's best rule, and to boot having a special errata for GWs to ASF even over the existing WHF Rule, which striking on initiative would have carried them pretty far?

Because the main advantage of ASF in 7th Edition was that opponents would get few if any attacks back and that advantage was taken away by Step-Up rules?
Because fighting in two ranks means that (while getting more attacks in) HE's would see a lot more attacks back to them as well?
Because HE's are paying a premium for most of their troops with the 7th Edition assumption that they wouldn't be hit back as often as they are now?

Teclis asides (and seriously, issues with him are pretty much separate from the overall issues of the High Elf army), the High Elf army pays a lot for T3, 5+Sv troops overall. They don't have nearly as many little tricks and trinkets as the DE do.

I understand the gripe that DE players have with HE's effectively receiving their Army-wide Special rule, but given that every equivalent unit DE have is cheaper than those in the HE book, I really feel the arguments/complaints about how HE are now "unfair" just come off as whining that the HE/DE fight is roughly even now. I'll preface by saying that I wouldn't have resolved the 8th Edition ASF transition the way GW did, but really, you must be able to see why they tried to boost ASF a bit, right?

Jin wrote:

RuneOfGromril wrote:I never said they were invincible, i just said i don't see why they needed an upgrade... especialy in the manner i mentioned of getting the opposing army's best rule, and to boot having a special errata for GWs to ASF even over the existing WHF Rule, which striking on initiative would have carried them pretty far?

Because the main advantage of ASF in 7th Edition was that opponents would get few if any attacks back and that advantage was taken away by Step-Up rules?
Because fighting in two ranks means that (while getting more attacks in) HE's would see a lot more attacks back to them as well?
Because HE's are paying a premium for most of their troops with the 7th Edition assumption that they wouldn't be hit back as often as they are now?

Teclis asides (and seriously, issues with him are pretty much separate from the overall issues of the High Elf army), the High Elf army pays a lot for T3, 5+Sv troops overall. They don't have nearly as many little tricks and trinkets as the DE do.

I understand the gripe that DE players have with HE's effectively receiving their Army-wide Special rule, but given that every equivalent unit DE have is cheaper than those in the HE book, I really feel the arguments/complaints about how HE are now "unfair" just come off as whining that the HE/DE fight is roughly even now. I'll preface by saying that I wouldn't have resolved the 8th Edition ASF transition the way GW did, but really, you must be able to see why they tried to boost ASF a bit, right?

I agreed, HE do deserve some compensation for the change in rules, GW just took it a bit too far, it should have only give you the re-roll if your initiative is higher, not if you are equal. (Since if your I is equal to your opponent's, you are benefiting from ASF already)

DE's problem lies in the diminishing utility of the once mighty agile units (Light cav, Skirmishers) and that most of the DE elite units suffer just as much under 8th as HE but didnt get anything for it.

For example:
Executioners: Cant use their Hand Weapons anymore, cant go first while charging.
BG: Suffer from their small unit limit a lot this edition.
Witch Elves: Cant take hits back well as they are naked. (Not as bad as others, since they are cheap enough to be field as a large unit)
CoK: With steadfast rule, they will be stuck very often.

Jackster wrote:CoK: With steadfast rule, they will be stuck very often.

No offence but if you've thrown your CoKs into a large enemy block alone youre doing it wrong.
Cavalry should be used for supporting not as a main battle unit.

HoverBoy wrote:

Jackster wrote:CoK: With steadfast rule, they will be stuck very often.

No offence but if you've thrown your CoKs into a large enemy block alone youre doing it wrong.
Cavalry should be used for supporting not as a main battle unit.

You haven't seen my Warrior Priest led blocks of 30 empire knights with great weapons have you?
But you are mostly correct, cav is support for the infantry, breaking the enemies back with a flank charge and running them down.

-Matt

HoverBoy wrote:

Jackster wrote:CoK: With steadfast rule, they will be stuck very often.

No offence but if you've thrown your CoKs into a large enemy block alone youre doing it wrong.
Cavalry should be used for supporting not as a main battle unit.

Yes, I didnt say they should charge into combat themselves, but most combat now last more than one round thanks to steadfast and BSB re-rolls, they get stuck with their single S4 attacks all too often.
They are also expensive so fielding enough of them to disrupt ranks cost too much.
Remember I was comparing them to how they were last edition and they are certainly worse off under the new rules.

Jin you make a fair point, with changes to massive blocks of infantry being standard in 8th they did need some help, and i wouldn't have went that exact way either. Jackster hits the bulk of the problem with what he says about the changes to the rest of the DE army that they didn't recieve any boosts in place of. Ultimately thats the thing, HE recieved major compensation, while the DE benefit from a very few changes, while losing significantly in others. I Agree with you both mostly... But to continue a bit:

High Elves expensive units will be killed back now, especialy when facing a massive block of troops, but thier ability to whittle units down has always been great, and thier bag of tricks is very good, i might even argue more singly effective.
Banner of the World Dragon for a measly 60 points? I daresay that is way more effective than the Ring of Hotek. Casters with the exception of Teclis explode all the time, when i take a caster i gamble that my magic phase will win me more points than my mage costs, and i am only very rarely wrong.
Banner of Balance? Dark elves pretty much blow without thier psycology rules, while high elves keep ASF and Re-rolls.

These are only two trinkets sure, but it's not like there is a huge gap in the effectiveness of thier items.

And as for Shooting when i put 10-20 shades on the table, half are dead before they score 5 wounds. Range is often more deciding than massed shots. Shades are quite expensive as well, and while DE have the edge in cheap fodder, if 1/4 of them die in the first two turns it's still like fighting 2000 points with 1500 (for example).