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Darkvoidof40k wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Like I say, not their fault.

I blame the 12-year-olds.

Burn them! BURN THEM, AND SACRIFICE THEIR SOULS TO THE WARP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eh, I'm fourteen so I'm good. Besides, it's GWs fault for listening them to the first place, if they even had any influence in the design of the codex at all.

They didn't.

The Chaos Codex was an experiment in simplification, much like the Dark Angels codex. Both Codices suffered heavily for it.

That's one thing I'll say about all the "fandex" stuff floating around out there. It makes me profoundly thankful for the current Chaos Space Marine and Chaos Daemon books.

Mind you, I like them.

Didn't the guy who wrote the current CSM book get canned (Gav Thorpe)? I seem to remember that he wrote an article in his own blog essentially explaining that it was an awesome book, given what he was told by GWs new direction (one they have since abandoned) and that people who don't like it don't see his genius. Here is the link: http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/differences-of-opinion/

A....FANDEX!?!??!


HERESY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And you say "Games Workshop shouldn't listen to the 12-tear-olds" as if it actually has a choice.

I played Chaos under the 3.5 and 4th edition chaos codices, and the 4th edition one didn't bother me at all. I played Plague Marines and they were a much more functional army. I guess if you played a legion it was probably a much nastier shift.
What I do feel is the comparison between CSM and 5th Edition SM- Mephiston or Canis Wolfborn could easily pwn Lucius or Kharn, or even Abbadon, Typhus is a joke survivability wise compared to Lysander or Cassius, and for more cost, Ahriman pales in comparison to no-name blood angels librarians or rune priests. Chosen don't hold up to wolf gaurd or sanguinary gaurd. Chaos Landraiders suck ass compared to Loyalist Landraiders. Chaos Dreads are unpredictable and over-priced, Loyalist Dreads can mince entire ork mobs or fly, or tarpit stuff for ages. Marine Termies can be hard-to-kill tanks, Chaos Termies are relegated to suicide tank killing roles.
Add to all that, Lash of Submission being so badly designed that most chaos lists are extremely samey, and you get a pretty boring codex most of the time. Not to say you can't run a pretty good Cult list out of it if you want, but when you compare it to Vanilla Marines, Blood Angels or Space Wolves, it's not up to scratch.

Anyone got a torrent of that fandex? For some reason only the first 3 pages will load for me.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Anything remotely as good as the current Loyalist codices (sans the poor,poor DAs) would make me happy.

You do realize that the Chaos 'dex is better than the Templars too, yes?

@darkvoid

Thanks for the link that is awesome.

I hated the the new "fluff" beware the space pirates!! Forget ten-thousand+ years of terror and destruction on a galactic scale.

I also hated Huron Blackheart why is he everyone's favorite at GW? He is stupid compared to some characters such as Erebus.

The other day, I wanted to use the Lesser Daemons. In fact, they could stall an enemy unit.
But they are so boring. Why can't they have some upgrades or special features (like FC or FNP) when a GD is around.

I don't see how slathering them with the same universal special rules that everything else gets when they have unique deployment via Chaos Space Marine Icons, being able to charge from a pin-point no-scatter Deep Strike.

I particularly like the way that they are 'open-season' insofar as models go; I've seen some great conversions using Dryads, and I personally use Zombies.

Likewise, if you're reducing the Chaos Space Marine background in the current codex, you probably haven't actually read it. The main theme of the Codex is the path of damnation, how selfishness is the seed of chaos, how the Traitor Legions first walked the path, how they were followed, and the current status and variety of the Chaos Space Marines beyond the original traitors.

@nurglitch

I missed it? Why did Huron turn traitor? For nothing more than money! Lame...

Also the path to damnation was always in the previous codexes with a lot of different stories/reasons the marines turned traitor.

Yeah! Finally someone can become on-par with my Chaotic powers because they dare to read the ancient, forbidden and blasphemous texts.. of the fandex!

Back to discussion, everyone.

There's very little beyond a color scheme and name for most Legions in the book. The Chaos Space Marines no longer feel like the ancient, dread enemy of the Imperium, born from the excesses of its own creation from the very heroes who built it with their blood and toil. It now just feels like a book of dudes that let their power go to their heads. Not really the same thing.

Nurglitch wrote:I don't see how slathering them with the same universal special rules that everything else gets when they have unique deployment via Chaos Space Marine Icons, being able to charge from a pin-point no-scatter Deep Strike.

But only if you're a daemon. The codex would have had many more builds and a lot more general power if you could deep-strike terminators, oblits, and Raptors like that.

Nurglitch wrote:I don't see how slathering them with the same universal special rules that everything else gets when they have unique deployment via Chaos Space Marine Icons, being able to charge from a pin-point no-scatter Deep Strike.

I particularly like the way that they are 'open-season' insofar as models go; I've seen some great conversions using Dryads, and I personally use Zombies.

Likewise, if you're reducing the Chaos Space Marine background in the current codex, you probably haven't actually read it. The main theme of the Codex is the path of damnation, how selfishness is the seed of chaos, how the Traitor Legions first walked the path, how they were followed, and the current status and variety of the Chaos Space Marines beyond the original traitors.

most chaos players don't want to play as renegades, they want to play as the legions, something the codex serverly lacks, most people would happily play the old codex over the new one (with all the weaknesses caused by playing a codex for an old edition)

+1 to pretty much all of the above, we don't want the legion T-shirt, WE WANT TO BE THE LEGION.

Whose Legion? Have you ever actually read one of the interminable Fandex threads in the Proposed Rules forum? Nobody agrees on the particular rules that a legion should have. If you're going to nail a piece of background down as an army list, you're going to piss a whole bunch of people off who disagree with that particular interpretation. And if each legion gets rules, why not all of them? We walked down that road in 4th edition and it was a mess from a game-balance perspective.

I think the problem is that 40k players have subjective and oftentimes unreasonable expectations about how the background translates into the game rules, and bizarrely unreasonable expectations about what constitutes game balance. I know I had some back in 3rd edition when I was annoyed enough to quick and design my own rules. I think everyone who has a problem with GW should try doing this, and in particular take the time, effort, and fund-raising to try and turn their project into a commercial product, because it really clues you into to the fact that GW works on a shoe-string budget in a niche of a niche market, and their products are a pretty good balance of time, resources, and quality for what they have to work with, and the nitpicky ass-burgers they have for fans.