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Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Hum, fair enough. In that case, I agree.
This does have a link to the point I made about Curze, though. The ends completely justify the means for him, from what I understand of him.
I guess what I'm arguing is there is no Batman in 40K.

I think that's right. I think the cause for good as it exists in Batman's world doesn't exist in 40k and good vs evil isn't based on marility but mankind vs their enemies. By the morals of batman everyone in 40k looks evil. The choice of sacrificing millions of people to fuel the astronomican by the emporer for example would be a stretch for batmans enemies.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

asimo77 wrote:As much as Batman is the dark side of justice, he still isn't a villain.

Curze may have been all about justice at some point, but didn't he degenerate into a homocidal maniac with a legion dedicated to terror, rape, murder, pillaging, and other wonderful activities?

not really, no. that's just BS imperial propaganda. In reality the Emperor sanctioned everything Konrad did and then when he became unnecessary the Emperor sent assassins after him

No one knows. Lots of contradictions in the background, probably on purpose. According to imperial records (Index Astartes), after the Heresy Curze slaughtered billions, and was living in a fortress made of their bodies. The assassin found him naked in a room made of human faces and feet, no less. In Lord of the Night (Simon Spurrier) we read he liked to join with his captains there.

Curze is based on the main character from Apocalypse Now / Heart of Darkness (written by Joseph Conrad, too). They were all about justice and vindication but they were actually insane. In my opinion, Curze is Batman gone insane, dissociative identity disorder included.

However, the fluff is changing right know.

cadbren wrote:
Interesting to see that a Joseph Conrad wrote a book called Nostromo about a mining town that is full of corruption.

Nostromo is also the name of the starship in Alien (Ridley Scott), which was an influence for the Tyranids (and the Space Marines in the sequel). Someone in GW likes Joseph Conrad

I suppose that Curze could be argued to be as much the joker as batman...

I'd say Corax, personally.

Batman isn't as nasty as Curze.

Really neither of them are batman as 9 times out of 10 batman will refuse to kill an enemy even those that have committed horrific crimes whereas both curze and corax kill without remorse.

Kurze because of the bat themed nightlords

As someone had said before, there is no batman in 40k. All the grim dark, sacrifice of thousands for the survival of man, killing and the like, I doubt that anyone can be compared to batman.

Personally I'm argueing more for the point that Kurze is more like Batman than Corax. Here are my (attempt) at some points (don't kill me):

1.) Batman always knows the outcome or has a backup plan in case of failure

Okay neither of them really did. Kurze for saw his death and used it as vindication, but he did not plan for his legion's down fall from his vision. Corax... well... I don't know... someone give me something...

2.) Batman is sneaky and uses fear to scare enemies

Corax = sneaky
Kurze = sneaky, and uses fear, but in a massacre-ish sort of way... so minus points...

3.) Batman is good?

Kurze... no....
Corax... no... but close. Creating mutants? bad... But mercy killing them? better

4.) Batman is bat...

Kurze... obviously

Okay actually they seem even...
Kurze = batman off the deep end
Corax = batman crossing the line

Batman has gone through enough different personalities under different writers that it varies from incarnation to incarnation.

When Frank Miller's writing him, that's definitely more like Curze.

In the DC Animated Universe as run by Bruce Timm, more like Corax.

In "Batman Brave and the Bold" he's nothing like either of them.

In the Nolan movies, more like Corax

In the Adam West era, nothing like either of them.

So I guess like a lot of 40k background, the "real" Batman is whichever version you want him to be. Personally I got to know the character through Bruce Timm's stuff and much prefer that take on the character over Miller's "Punisher with a Bat symbol" take, but I get the impression I'm seriously in the minority.

As much as Batman is the dark side of justice, he still isn't a villain.

Curze may have been all about justice at some point, but didn't he degenerate into a homocidal maniac with a legion dedicated to terror, rape, murder, pillaging, and other wonderful activities?

He was always dedicated to justice. His legion "degenerated" after his death. Astartes don't rape. I have never read a source on Astartes pillaging so i doubt it exists. Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another.

I always though of Kurze as more of a Rorscharch-esq person.

Thelaugher wrote:

As much as Batman is the dark side of justice, he still isn't a villain.

Curze may have been all about justice at some point, but didn't he degenerate into a homocidal maniac with a legion dedicated to terror, rape, murder, pillaging, and other wonderful activities?

He was always dedicated to justice. His legion "degenerated" after his death. Astartes don't rape. I have never read a source on Astartes pillaging so i doubt it exists. Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another.

His legion had already begun to degenerate. He wasnt exactly recruiting from a stellar pool of sterling candidates.

Thelaugher wrote:I have never read a source on Astartes pillaging so i doubt it exists.

Page Ten of Battle Missions the CSM Mission is called Pillage. Red Corsairs pillage and raid.

Thelaugher wrote:

As much as Batman is the dark side of justice, he still isn't a villain.

Curze may have been all about justice at some point, but didn't he degenerate into a homocidal maniac with a legion dedicated to terror, rape, murder, pillaging, and other wonderful activities?

He was always dedicated to justice. His legion "degenerated" after his death. Astartes don't rape. I have never read a source on Astartes pillaging so i doubt it exists. Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another.

He organized "a campaign of genocide and purest evil that made their previous atrocities pale in comparison" (quoting Index Astartes II) for no apparent reason right before his death. The Night Lords´ reputation is worse than any other. And it was this way before the Heresy too.
However I didn´t find any reference of "raping" (though the NL were "rapist and murderers" before their recruitment). But for the Wolves, I am not sure about any Astartes having sex.

I still see him as a hero gone insane.

chowderhead13 wrote:I always though of Kurze as more of a Rorscharch-esq person.

^ This

The novel Lord of Night goes into detail about some of his motives, i have never read the source that you speak of but i feel like we're stuck in another GW are they good or bad scenario(Tau) where they give us just enough info so we can have debates like this.

Yep.
They do it all the time. It is the main reason this universe is so addictive.

Curze comes across more as Knightfall-era AzraelBatman rather than either Bruce Wayne or Dick Grayson Batman

necrongod wrote:Who is more batman, corax or Curze? i would have to say corax. i mena, he had black armour, liked birds, and has wings.

Corz. Kurze don't play no wussy Batman. Curze plays Kutz!



Batman was fear spread by a person. Conrad Kurtz was Fear, spread by an entire army.

Definately Curze. Corax was sneaky, Curze used fear.

I don't really think the good/bad comparison can be made. Curze wasn't neccessarily evil. What he did on Nostramo turned the planet from one of the worst planets to somewhere ok(ish) to live. The kiling was neccessary because unlike batman he didn't have anyone to hand over criminals to- the planet was corrupt at every level. Death was the only thing that really stopped them.

Turning to chaos doesn't make him evil either. Having visions of the worst possible situations put a real strain on him and once he saw what the night lords had become he went insane. Of all the traitor primarchs he was the only one who appeared sad at what had happened, and stood for his cause enough to let himself die to support it.

4M2A wrote:
Turning to chaos doesn't make him evil either. Having visions of the worst possible situations put a real strain on him and once he saw what the night lords had become he went insane. Of all the traitor primarchs he was the only one who appeared sad at what had happened, and stood for his cause enough to let himself die to support it.

And this is why he's my favourite Primarch. He saw that he became just as bad as what he was supposedly fighting against, and accepted his punishment fairly.

Curze, because death is nothing to Vindication.

Plus Night Lords just happen to be my 2nd/3rd fave traitor legion out there.

i think corax as he stayed loyal (cruze did not) and he made mistakes in the geneseed he nobly locked himself away for a year and then filled with guilt was last seen headed towards the eye of terror..... as for cruze he was a traitor who deserted the one who gave him life...the emperor.

long live the emperor!!

lion_el_johnson wrote:i think corax as he stayed loyal (cruze did not) and he made mistakes in the geneseed he nobly locked himself away for a year and then filled with guilt was last seen headed towards the eye of terror..... as for cruze he was a traitor who deserted the one who gave him life...the emperor.

long live the emperor!!

Curze spent the formative years of his life in a corrupt city before taking on an alter ego that sent fear through the heart of every criminal and corrupt official. He then used this alter ego to gain power and control the populace. His alter ego was called Night Haunter. His tactics were based on fear and psychological warfare. How is he not more Batman than Corax?

I say curze he is raw scary Bad ASSNES he isnt afraid of anything or anyone and has the whole dark history. He goes rouge in his younger years and doesnt have anyhelp. His planet was his Gothem. Both Curze and batman use frieght tactics and mixed martial arts. So i say Curze

Eldrad wrote:I say curze he is raw scary Bad ASSNES he isnt afraid of anything or anyone and has the whole dark history. He goes rouge in his younger years and doesnt have anyhelp. His planet was his Gothem. Both Curze and batman use frieght tactics and mixed martial arts. So i say Curze

Has anyone ever asked you to check your grammar and spelling? Because you should.