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Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Hum, fair enough. In that case, I agree.
This does have a link to the point I made about Curze, though. The ends completely justify the means for him, from what I understand of him.
I guess what I'm arguing is there is no Batman in 40K.
I think that's right. I think the cause for good as it exists in Batman's world doesn't exist in 40k and good vs evil isn't based on marility but mankind vs their enemies. By the morals of batman everyone in 40k looks evil. The choice of sacrificing millions of people to fuel the astronomican by the emporer for example would be a stretch for batmans enemies.
asimo77 wrote:As much as Batman is the dark side of justice, he still isn't a villain.
Curze may have been all about justice at some point, but didn't he degenerate into a homocidal maniac with a legion dedicated to terror, rape, murder, pillaging, and other wonderful activities?
not really, no. that's just BS imperial propaganda. In reality the Emperor sanctioned everything Konrad did and then when he became unnecessary the Emperor sent assassins after him
No one knows. Lots of contradictions in the background, probably on purpose. According to imperial records (Index Astartes), after the Heresy Curze slaughtered billions, and was living in a fortress made of their bodies. The assassin found him naked in a room made of human faces and feet, no less. In Lord of the Night (Simon Spurrier) we read he liked to join with his captains there.
Curze is based on the main character from Apocalypse Now / Heart of Darkness (written by Joseph Conrad, too). They were all about justice and vindication but they were actually insane. In my opinion, Curze is Batman gone insane, dissociative identity disorder included.
However, the fluff is changing right know.
cadbren wrote:
Interesting to see that a Joseph Conrad wrote a book called Nostromo about a mining town that is full of corruption.
Nostromo is also the name of the starship in Alien (Ridley Scott), which was an influence for the Tyranids (and the Space Marines in the sequel). Someone in GW likes Joseph Conrad
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
Really neither of them are batman as 9 times out of 10 batman will refuse to kill an enemy even those that have committed horrific crimes whereas both curze and corax kill without remorse.
As someone had said before, there is no batman in 40k. All the grim dark, sacrifice of thousands for the survival of man, killing and the like, I doubt that anyone can be compared to batman.
Personally I'm argueing more for the point that Kurze is more like Batman than Corax. Here are my (attempt) at some points (don't kill me):
1.) Batman always knows the outcome or has a backup plan in case of failure
Okay neither of them really did. Kurze for saw his death and used it as vindication, but he did not plan for his legion's down fall from his vision. Corax... well... I don't know... someone give me something...
2.) Batman is sneaky and uses fear to scare enemies
Corax = sneaky
Kurze = sneaky, and uses fear, but in a massacre-ish sort of way... so minus points...
3.) Batman is good?
Kurze... no....
Corax... no... but close. Creating mutants? bad... But mercy killing them? better
4.) Batman is bat...
Kurze... obviously
Okay actually they seem even...
Kurze = batman off the deep end
Corax = batman crossing the line
Batman has gone through enough different personalities under different writers that it varies from incarnation to incarnation.
When Frank Miller's writing him, that's definitely more like Curze.
In the DC Animated Universe as run by Bruce Timm, more like Corax.
In "Batman Brave and the Bold" he's nothing like either of them.
In the Nolan movies, more like Corax
In the Adam West era, nothing like either of them.
So I guess like a lot of 40k background, the "real" Batman is whichever version you want him to be. Personally I got to know the character through Bruce Timm's stuff and much prefer that take on the character over Miller's "Punisher with a Bat symbol" take, but I get the impression I'm seriously in the minority.
As much as Batman is the dark side of justice, he still isn't a villain.
Curze may have been all about justice at some point, but didn't he degenerate into a homocidal maniac with a legion dedicated to terror, rape, murder, pillaging, and other wonderful activities?
He was always dedicated to justice. His legion "degenerated" after his death. Astartes don't rape. I have never read a source on Astartes pillaging so i doubt it exists. Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another.
All Orks is equal, but some Orks are more equal dan uvvas.
As much as Batman is the dark side of justice, he still isn't a villain.
Curze may have been all about justice at some point, but didn't he degenerate into a homocidal maniac with a legion dedicated to terror, rape, murder, pillaging, and other wonderful activities?
He was always dedicated to justice. His legion "degenerated" after his death. Astartes don't rape. I have never read a source on Astartes pillaging so i doubt it exists. Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another.
His legion had already begun to degenerate. He wasnt exactly recruiting from a stellar pool of sterling candidates.
As much as Batman is the dark side of justice, he still isn't a villain.
Curze may have been all about justice at some point, but didn't he degenerate into a homocidal maniac with a legion dedicated to terror, rape, murder, pillaging, and other wonderful activities?
He was always dedicated to justice. His legion "degenerated" after his death. Astartes don't rape. I have never read a source on Astartes pillaging so i doubt it exists. Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another.
He organized "a campaign of genocide and purest evil that made their previous atrocities pale in comparison" (quoting Index Astartes II) for no apparent reason right before his death. The Night Lords´ reputation is worse than any other. And it was this way before the Heresy too.
However I didn´t find any reference of "raping" (though the NL were "rapist and murderers" before their recruitment). But for the Wolves, I am not sure about any Astartes having sex.
I still see him as a hero gone insane.
chowderhead13 wrote:I always though of Kurze as more of a Rorscharch-esq person.
^ This
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/03 09:45:33
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
The novel Lord of Night goes into detail about some of his motives, i have never read the source that you speak of but i feel like we're stuck in another GW are they good or bad scenario(Tau) where they give us just enough info so we can have debates like this.
All Orks is equal, but some Orks are more equal dan uvvas.
Yep.
They do it all the time. It is the main reason this universe is so addictive.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
necrongod wrote:Who is more batman, corax or Curze? i would have to say corax. i mena, he had black armour, liked birds, and has wings.
Corz. Kurze don't play no wussy Batman. Curze plays Kutz!
Batman was fear spread by a person. Conrad Kurtz was Fear, spread by an entire army.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Definately Curze. Corax was sneaky, Curze used fear.
I don't really think the good/bad comparison can be made. Curze wasn't neccessarily evil. What he did on Nostramo turned the planet from one of the worst planets to somewhere ok(ish) to live. The kiling was neccessary because unlike batman he didn't have anyone to hand over criminals to- the planet was corrupt at every level. Death was the only thing that really stopped them.
Turning to chaos doesn't make him evil either. Having visions of the worst possible situations put a real strain on him and once he saw what the night lords had become he went insane. Of all the traitor primarchs he was the only one who appeared sad at what had happened, and stood for his cause enough to let himself die to support it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/06 21:51:58
4M2A wrote:
Turning to chaos doesn't make him evil either. Having visions of the worst possible situations put a real strain on him and once he saw what the night lords had become he went insane. Of all the traitor primarchs he was the only one who appeared sad at what had happened, and stood for his cause enough to let himself die to support it.
And this is why he's my favourite Primarch. He saw that he became just as bad as what he was supposedly fighting against, and accepted his punishment fairly.
i think corax as he stayed loyal (cruze did not) and he made mistakes in the geneseed he nobly locked himself away for a year and then filled with guilt was last seen headed towards the eye of terror..... as for cruze he was a traitor who deserted the one who gave him life...the emperor.
lion_el_johnson wrote:i think corax as he stayed loyal (cruze did not) and he made mistakes in the geneseed he nobly locked himself away for a year and then filled with guilt was last seen headed towards the eye of terror..... as for cruze he was a traitor who deserted the one who gave him life...the emperor.
long live the emperor!!
Curze spent the formative years of his life in a corrupt city before taking on an alter ego that sent fear through the heart of every criminal and corrupt official. He then used this alter ego to gain power and control the populace. His alter ego was called Night Haunter. His tactics were based on fear and psychological warfare. How is he not more Batman than Corax?
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
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Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
I say curze he is raw scary Bad ASSNES he isnt afraid of anything or anyone and has the whole dark history. He goes rouge in his younger years and doesnt have anyhelp. His planet was his Gothem. Both Curze and batman use frieght tactics and mixed martial arts. So i say Curze
Eldrad wrote:I say curze he is raw scary Bad ASSNES he isnt afraid of anything or anyone and has the whole dark history. He goes rouge in his younger years and doesnt have anyhelp. His planet was his Gothem. Both Curze and batman use frieght tactics and mixed martial arts. So i say Curze
Has anyone ever asked you to check your grammar and spelling? Because you should.
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.