Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes, I am still afraid of Seer Councils. Then again, I play Black Templars, so I have no way of stopping fortune (except allies, and they're going away soon anyway, might as well learn to play without...). I also don't have the awesome thunderhammerinators of the 5th ed marine dexes, so that's pretty much a no-no too.

Ailaros wrote:

sourclams wrote:Show me your 'non-perfect-circumstances uber Rommel commander' deployment where your power blob protects itself from templates while also getting a bunch of attacks.

Done.

In the above, the power blob ultimately lost, but it lost to twice its points in eldar while the eldar player's luck was extremely good (40 power weapon attacks (12 of which rerolled to hit) along with 10 power fist attacks, and he fails TWO invul saves?), and STILL managed to tar-pit the seer squad until it was too late to be useful.

If this is what power blobs to to a jetbike council when they have BAD luck...

So if the Eldar player sucks and doesn't outmaneuver the powerblob, or shoot the powerblob, or lets itself get charged by the powerblob, and if you sacrifice tank squadrons to set up the "trap" for the powerblob....

Yeah, then the power blob definitely comes into its own against Jetseers.

Well, I regularly play a Seer Council in my mech Eldar army, on foot and mounted in a Serpent.
A footslogging Council has some downsides when compared with Jetcouncil.
However, if you go 2nd or come from reserve, its not possible to fortune the Council.
This makes a foot Council in a transport a viable option.

If you use it correctly, it can kill almost any unit out there in the 40k universe.
My biggest fear is nullzone, nothing else.

wuestenfux wrote:If you use it correctly, it can kill almost any unit out there in the 40k universe.
My biggest fear is nullzone, nothing else.

And, if on foot, Incinerators and Psycannons. There is nothing more hilarious than telling your Eldar opponent that his Council just got gak to pieces and that they're not allowed to save at all...

sourclams wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

sourclams wrote:Show me your 'non-perfect-circumstances uber Rommel commander' deployment where your power blob protects itself from templates while also getting a bunch of attacks.

Done.

In the above, the power blob ultimately lost, but it lost to twice its points in eldar while the eldar player's luck was extremely good (40 power weapon attacks (12 of which rerolled to hit) along with 10 power fist attacks, and he fails TWO invul saves?), and STILL managed to tar-pit the seer squad until it was too late to be useful.

If this is what power blobs to to a jetbike council when they have BAD luck...

So if the Eldar player sucks and doesn't outmaneuver the powerblob, or shoot the powerblob, or lets itself get charged by the powerblob, and if you sacrifice tank squadrons to set up the "trap" for the powerblob....

Yeah, then the power blob definitely comes into its own against Jetseers.

you forgot that part about having a poor council build aswell

So wouldn't it really be Powerblob points + 3x tank points vs jetseer points?

And seriously, bad mathhammer hurts to read. "Gawr I didn't roll statistically average, which is not actually something you get when you spam simple division over and over again, and isn't actually something that works for discrete events anyway, my predictions have betrayed me!" etc etc.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:If you use it correctly, it can kill almost any unit out there in the 40k universe.
My biggest fear is nullzone, nothing else.

And, if on foot, Incinerators and Psycannons. There is nothing more hilarious than telling your Eldar opponent that his Council just got gak to pieces and that they're not allowed to save at all...

These weapons were rather unusual. But this might change when the new DH codex comes out.

MikeMcSomething wrote:So wouldn't it really be Powerblob points + 3x tank points vs jetseer points?

And seriously, bad mathhammer hurts to read. "Gawr I didn't roll statistically average, which is not actually something you get when you spam simple division over and over again, and isn't actually something that works for discrete events anyway, my predictions have betrayed me!" etc etc.

I'm still waiting for the part where you add to the conversation. . . It would be great if you could even suggest a guard unit that could deal with a council better than a blob could. Until then, get back under your bridge.

If you're having a hard time understanding my (remarkably simple) post then the best way to rectify that would be to ask for clarification.

ElCheezus wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:So wouldn't it really be Powerblob points + 3x tank points vs jetseer points?

And seriously, bad mathhammer hurts to read. "Gawr I didn't roll statistically average, which is not actually something you get when you spam simple division over and over again, and isn't actually something that works for discrete events anyway, my predictions have betrayed me!" etc etc.

I'm still waiting for the part where you add to the conversation. . . It would be great if you could even suggest a guard unit that could deal with a council better than a blob could. Until then, get back under your bridge.

The entire guard army shooting it on the top of Turn 1. 600 pts of Seer Council turn into 11 Marines with a cover save.

That is the IG hard counter to Seer Council, and that is why (along with the Space Wolf codex) they've faded into the background, much like Nob Bikers. This is an army matchup where, if you lose first turn or get the initiative stolen, you lose, g'bye.

If that doesn't happen, and the Jetseers do get Fortune off, and the Eldar player is any good, then it becomes a game again and the IG player will have to do any number of things to keep a highly resilient, highly mobile unit from bouncing through their tank line.

To get to that point, however, the Eldar player is going to have to get past the 60% of the time when he doesn't go first.

Seer councils are to be respected, not feared......which is a big difference...

What a shame, what a shame! I've always found these guys to be made of pure awesomeness. A hefty pricetag and getting your psychic powers denied just takes all the cream away.

I don't play Eldars myself, but i was really hoping for finding threads about how your army would suck if not fielding these guys. They're one of my favorite units in the entire game!

You get to go first 50 percent of the time, just like your opponent does. I don't understand why an eldar's opponent would go first 60 percent of the time.

I suppose the rolls to seize would just about even out, bringing you back to ~50%...

I've played against the Seer Council for a while, and some of my armies have no trouble with them, others I just have to try to tie them up and hope for the best... My Marine armies (SW, BA, DA) all have psychic defenses making Fortune "less reliable", and Termis or dedicated Assault types to go forth and tie them up and kill them off... IG, well, my Ogres can usually tie them up for a few turns since they play "linebacker/safety" in my IG lists... But in a 1500 point list the SC is a huge chunk, meaning that in 2/3 missions I can win the mission by focusing on the few "Troops" the SC player can field, and the IG can bring the firepower to do that more often than not...

Taoofss wrote:You get to go first 50 percent of the time, just like your opponent does. I don't understand why an eldar's opponent would go first 60 percent of the time.

You almost have to leave them in reserve at that point, as 5/6 of the time they get shot off the table. Sorry, my assumption does leave for some ambiguity that skews the number away from the Eldar player.

Edit:

Death Company are another recent addition to the meta that has made the Seers less appealing. WS5 with a 'built-in' Fortune effect due to FNP and more power weapons plus rerolls at a cheaper cost...

freddieyu1 wrote:Seer councils are to be respected, not feared......which is a big difference...

Indeed. In 5th my workhorse, 'go to' army became Space Wolves, like so many other players, and typically running 2 runepriests and possibly 4, or another HQ, I am not afraid of seer councils, (pretty easy to tag the fortune off), a simple 4+ Invulnerable with a T3 underneath and no power weapons isn't that great.

Now Eldraad AND Seer Councils, that's pretty good, I see that as a threat, especially if it also has Yriel too, which is what I run when I play Eldar, but that's so many points for just 1 unit, it cant be everywhere...

I'm assuming you run the seers on foot (or in serpent) as opposed to bikes then? Back in the 'day' of early 5th (so pre IG, pre SW, right after C:SM was re-released) a guy I regularly played against did Serpent seers to very good effect but I do wonder if the special chars are enough of a twist. Badly needed power weapon additions, but the cost is monstrous while survivability is lower.

Still has problems with SW but not near so much risk of being shot to death on T1 if they can start in the WS.

Don't think I'd do it, but it's a twist, I suppose. Death Company and Space Wolves are still a problem.

sourclams wrote:... it's a twist, I suppose. Death Company and Space Wolves are still a problem.

Yes you have it, I run them in a waveserpent as s single group. Space wolf rune priests are a great nemesis, essentially nullifying it. Any high power assault unit is dicey, thunder hammer terminators in a landraider are a problem too as well as death company and even regular FNP BAs , especially with Libs or Mephiston (another army of mine as well).

It's a much less effective combination these days but it's what I have painted. My Yriel and Eldraad conversions I really like!

Essentially it hinges on skimmer overload, and speed, hopefully you can turboboost the waveserpent where you want the seer council to be and there wont be a high power assault unit or a enemy psyker there.

I'll say this, the seer serpent council murders IG tank lines with multi charge, it's pretty great, especially if they don't move their tanks to try and shoot more to down your serpent, then your models get out and go wild, I had some 5th ed tourney games where the seers got as many as 4 tanks in a single assault!

As an Ork player (no Psyker defense, yo), I for one do not like Seer Councils. I pretty much have to rely on the Nobz to hold out, and they require inordinate amounts of shooting to soften up.

The problem with seer councils is fairly simple.. they have limited access to power weapons and have limited attacks for a truly expensive price tag. They are super survivable but against 3+ power armor, they just dont perform as well as you would hope. Now that there are even more hardy marines around(BA with FNP) it makes it even harder to use them properly.
What a seer council is amazing against is mech guard, as with fortune up the seer council is TOUGH. Against other players, they are so so. And all it takes is one stroke of bad luck ie a single loota shot killing the farseer, or a hidden fist doing the same, and the unit folds. For 600 points.. no thanks, I'l take 3 or 4 more WS's thankyou.

A regular player at my LGS plays a full Seer Council mounted in a Wave Serpent. I have a healthy respect for these guys, as even though they aren't indivivually powerful, they are fething hard to kill. It took three turns of assault with Sanguinary Guard to force them back once.

I use them rarely, they just don't seem worth it to me.
So many points for not enough killyness.
Great against vehicles and absorbing firepower but i'd rather have a larger army.

When facing a council, or any death star, i actually enjoy it.
Dooming them and wiping them in one turn is just too good an oppertunity to pass up if it works.

sourclams wrote:So if the Eldar player sucks and doesn't outmaneuver the powerblob, or shoot the powerblob, or lets itself get charged by the powerblob, and if you sacrifice tank squadrons to set up the "trap" for the powerblob....

Yeah, then the power blob definitely comes into its own against Jetseers.

Actually, my point is that, outside of perfect circumstances, jetseers just can't put out enough damage to handle power blobs. The fact that I, as the receiving player, have some degree of control over the circumstances of how jetseers are used only further illustrates my point. As such, in any situation other than the guard player letting the jetseer player do exactly whatever he wants, they're not going to come out ahead. Furthermore, as you mention, part of the "perfect" means that the eldar player has to build their jetlock unit exactly right, and play totally perfectly with them, which is also less than likely.

A jetbike council vs. a unit that is good at tarpitting is merely a dream. Statistics show that it only works in hypothetical situations which will rarely, if ever, exist.

And of course, as has been mentioned, this is assuming that the council doesn't get shot up, face off against a non-guard army that can bring a psychic hood (or a variety of other counters depending on the army), or that the eldar player himself doesn't have bad luck, in which case they are just stomped flat.

Basically, jetbike seer councils are good against static armies that rely on non-guard-artillery long-range shooting, that have lots of vehicles, but nothing that's either good in close combat, or is a tar pit unit. In other words, they stop guard mech and razorback spam, but aren't actually all that good against much else.

dayve110 wrote:I use them rarely, they just don't seem worth it to me....

Well that pretty much sums up the entire Eldar codex for me.

+1 to Ailaros

Seer Councils do have quite a few strong counters at this point. But, they can still single-handedly win a game against certain armies. (Taking out MC heavy Nids is my favorite! )

Augustus wrote:

dayve110 wrote:I use them rarely, they just don't seem worth it to me....

Well that pretty much sums up the entire Eldar codex for me.

Then your doing it wrong.

Basically, jetbike seer councils are good against static armies that rely on non-guard-artillery long-range shooting, that have lots of vehicles, but nothing that's either good in close combat, or is a tar pit unit. In other words, they stop guard mech and razorback spam, but aren't actually all that good against much else.

Against power blobs though, they can bring a pretty horifying number of flamer template weapons.
however this is completely negated by simply ending your turn ~15-18" from them and/or keeping your front line spread out, if they can't cause extremely significant casualties with those flamers they will be tarpitted for the entire game.
It is not a wonder you are not worried about flamers with how you run your blobs

dayve110 wrote:Then your doing it wrong.

Ailaros wrote:

A jetbike council vs. a unit that is good at tarpitting is merely a dream. Statistics show that it only works in hypothetical situations which will rarely, if ever, exist.

Statistics show that a council has jetbike movement and should have numerous heavy flamer templates, while the power blob tarpit is T3 with 5+ armor. Your opponent had a bad build and got suckered into a stupid situation.

Augustus wrote:

dayve110 wrote:Then your doing it wrong.

(Image)

I like the one with the rattle...