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Creed is sort of a force multiplier

the idea when I use him is

- he lets a unit outflank, infantry platoons are rolled as one unit for reserves, so this can turn ugly, fast, esp when you roll onto a board edge with a few melta elements and a separate tarpit/assault element.
-his 24" order radius keeps him farther from the danger zone than other officers
-there's some shananigins you can pull with him, like first rank firing a terminator squad, letting them assault you, taking a wound on a commisar, letting them break, auto-rallying them with creed then furious assaulting.

*facepalm* I forgot Scout also gave you Outflank... durr. Well live and learn.

Creed needs a large army to really start flexing his ordering muscles.

True. IMO he works really well with HWTs, which I have none of... sad panda. I am gonna try a more conventional list with just Al'Rahem's outflanking blob plus the usual Vets n' Vendettas n' Leman Russes tomorrow against Eldar. So it should be fun XD

Terminus wrote:Creed needs a large army to really start flexing his ordering muscles.

yep

i'll generally run

CS:
Creed
sniper rifles

Platoon 1
melta suicide command
30 man plob w/ 1 or 2 autocannons
20 man blob w/ 2 autocannons

Platoon 2
melta suicide command
30 man plob w/ 1 or 2 autocannons
20 man blob w/ 2 autocannons

Ive been playing with the thought of either SWS teams with plasma, or my new favorite, a few small infiltrating stormtrooper squads with plasma.

+long range support, PCS, lemans, whatever.

the idea is i can sit back and lay waste to all the enemies transports on the first turn, the auto cannon squads help get more men into CC later, and soak 1 wound XD

Thats pretty brutal man. Stick som e power weapons on the Sarges and when they get up in your grill you can just "For Cadia!" Them and chop em' up. lol

pretty much, every opponent ive faced has underestimated what a wall of 300 lasgun shots can do in one turn, once

the only thing ive had a real issue with are rerolling armor eldar (because I didnt take any lascannons) and nurgle boys to a lesser extent.

I'm thinking I should write up a IG infantry guide, as these threads pretty constantly come up.

I look forward to larger games that allow me to drop 4 blobs on the table.

Creed w/ vox, standard, 2 specials, chimera

Al'Raheem w/ vox, 3 meltas, chimera
20 Guardsmen w/ vox, 1 or 2 flamers, commissar, power weapons
20 Guardsmen w/ vox, 1 or 2 flamers, commissar, power weapons

PCS w/ 4 meltas, chimera
20 Guardsmen w/ vox, 2 autocannons, commissar
20 Guardsmen w/ vox, 2 autocannons, commissar
HWS w/ 3 autocannons
HWS w/ 3 autocannons

For threatening the opponent's objectives, there is Al'Raheem, the melta PCS (outflanked by creed), and two close combat power blobs. For guarding my own objectives, I have the two autocannon squads, with a HWS hiding in each for a 4+ cover save.

In the first turns of the game, Creed throws BID on the firebase, giving me potentially 10 TL autocannons. After the outflankers arrive, Creed continues issuing BID to the combined autocannon squads (more reliable), and throwing For Cadia! on the two power blobs. Al'Raheem also has BID for his and the PCS's meltaguns, and can use Like the Wind as needed.

schadenfreude wrote:A banner on the ccs would make its points back after stopping 1 execution.

That's debatable. A commissar's execute is triggered on the failure, which is the same thing that triggers the banner. It can be argued that he'll still execute since you failed. Either way, I don't see a banner as worth taking if you have a commissar around.

schadenfreude wrote:Yea I'm sold on the idea that I can keep a priest out of CC. If I can do it with 10 man BA squads it should be even easier in a 30 man blob. My big issue with the chainfists is that math hammer.

For 15 points I could get 2 chainfist attacks at S6, 3 on the charge.
For the same 15 points I could get 3 melta bomb attacks with 3 melta bomb sergeants at S8

They hit vehicles on the same #
The priest hits walkers on a 4+ with reroll compared to the 6+ for the sergeants, but the walker can just pick off the priest on initiative before he swings.

An added bonus with the melta bombs is I would be far more willing to DoG a sergeant against a tank shock than a priest, and 3 models is much more difficult for a tank to avoid.

What you lose here is your power weapons attacks if you do this. Blobs are to hunt infantry, not tanks, usually. Sometimes, though, a priest can multi-assault and take out a vehicle while the rest of the blob is taking out a unit. If you use your Sergeants for MBs, then you have to lose all of the PW attacks to place bombs. For similar points, you get flexibility. Of course, extra points could go to MBs, too.

Power blob guard start to have problems against fast CC units like DE and Blood Angels, though. A few WS 3 PW attacks will not make up for the dizzying number of attacks coming in. Even a decent SW list is very tough as they pack superior firepower (every bolter can AP guardsmen and 20 bolter shots hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s is 8-9 dead guardsmen- so cover is essential!) and are extemely brutal in assault (going first at I4, hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s- a 10 man SW/CSM squad is looking at 30+ attacks or ~13 wounds before upgrades, and hidden pweaps need 4s to hit and 5s to wound or 6s on Nurgle marines).

Things like flamers and ordinance can liquidate large chunks of the army and leave units extremely vulnerable. The army style requires a fair amount of finesse and strategy to play properly and is not as straightforward as some other CC lists.

the idea of a priest with an evicerator is more dissuading your opponent than actual effectiveness.

I've had a lord commisar punch out an avatar, and a priest bring down a dreadnaught who wiffed, having the threat on the board is nice.

however I still prefer meltabombs and keeping the priest out of harms way.

ElCheezus wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:A banner on the ccs would make its points back after stopping 1 execution.

That's debatable. A commissar's execute is triggered on the failure, which is the same thing that triggers the banner. It can be argued that he'll still execute since you failed. Either way, I don't see a banner as worth taking if you have a commissar around.

Convention has it that you decide the order of events that trigger simultaneously. Also, the INAT FAQ (not official, but widely used) has ruled that the banner re-roll takes place, and if that is failed, the commissar executes (and you still fall back since you can't re-re-roll it). Ld 9 Stubborn is nice but not infallible; Ld 9 Stubborn with a re-roll is not going anywhere.

The banner is also gold if you're running heavy weapon teams (or even Ogryn), so they don't bail the first check they take.

Yeah, I could see a banner having usues. It's hard to justify losing that 4th Special Weapon slot though, for something that has conditional benefit.

Well, I utilize the hell out of my orders, so the special weapons on my CCS tend to be for emergency use only, rather than treating the squad as a glorified SWS (which is understandably popular).

Yup, that'll happen. The only orders I've used so far is BiD and MMM, but both have proven to be very useful. Bid is clutch for random PCS's and Vet squads IMO.

Actually, the banner and commissars don't mix.

The banner says "you may reroll failed morale tests" while the commissar says "whenever you fail a morale test". In order for the banner to be activated, you need to fail a morale test. Once it's been established that you failed a morale test, the commissar does summary execution. Then, you have the option of rerolling from the banner, but it's moot because the summary execution says that you "immediately" reroll the test, which means by the time you get to the banner, it's too late. That or you could take the banner reroll if you really wanted to bend things, but in either case, someone dies, and you get exactly one reroll.

Of course, the banner is still useful to keep SWSs, PCSs and HWSs on the field, but that's about it.

Terminus wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:A banner on the ccs would make its points back after stopping 1 execution.

That's debatable. A commissar's execute is triggered on the failure, which is the same thing that triggers the banner. It can be argued that he'll still execute since you failed. Either way, I don't see a banner as worth taking if you have a commissar around.

Convention has it that you decide the order of events that trigger simultaneously. Also, the INAT FAQ (not official, but widely used) has ruled that the banner re-roll takes place, and if that is failed, the commissar executes (and you still fall back since you can't re-re-roll it). Ld 9 Stubborn is nice but not infallible; Ld 9 Stubborn with a re-roll is not going anywhere.

The banner is also gold if you're running heavy weapon teams (or even Ogryn), so they don't bail the first check they take.

If INAT FAQs it that way, then it's good enough for me. I'm still not likely to take one, and I'm fine paying the cost for a commissar (I.e. the execution) even if there's a banner around. In general, if I'm worried enough about failing leadership, I've most likely got a commissar nearby, or have already assumed the squad is lost in those situations.

Ailaros wrote:Actually, the banner and commissars don't mix.

The banner says "you may reroll failed morale tests" while the commissar says "whenever you fail a morale test". In order for the banner to be activated, you need to fail a morale test. Once it's been established that you failed a morale test, the commissar does summary execution. Then, you have the option of rerolling from the banner, but it's moot because the summary execution says that you "immediately" reroll the test, which means by the time you get to the banner, it's too late. That or you could take the banner reroll if you really wanted to bend things, but in either case, someone dies, and you get exactly one reroll.

Of course, the banner is still useful to keep SWSs, PCSs and HWSs on the field, but that's about it.

Debatable. It's not ruled by GW one way or the other, and their language is not that specific. Many Indie tournaments and my frequented stores play it the way I described.

Terminus wrote: It's not ruled by GW one way or the other, and their language is not that specific. Many Indie tournaments and my frequented stores play it the way I described.

Actually, it is that specific:

Standard (p. 91): "... any friendly units withing 12" reroll failed morale tests"

This means that in order to reroll, you need to have failed a morale test.

Summary Execution (p. 32): "If the Commissar's unit failed a morale test the commander will summarily execute the squad's current commander"

If there is a failed morale test, he shoots.

As such, if a squad fails a morale test, the commissar shoots, and the squad gets a reroll. Whether it gets it from the standard or not, it only gets one reroll, and whichever source of reroll (remember, you're rerolling a FAILED morale test) you use, the commissar is shooting someone.

GW doesn't need to FAQ this, because it's clear as crystal. Unfortunately, if people in your area are playing it some other way, they're playing it wrong.

Wrong or not, that's how many places are playing it. As are any tournaments using the INAT faq.

GW rules are not legal documents nor are they Magic the Gathering, you can mince words all you want, but unless it specifically spells it out, there is no differentiating between one ability that triggers on a particular die result, and another ability that triggers on the same die result. Which takes place first? Is a roll that fails but is re-rolled into a success still a failure? If a breaking unit is re-emboldened by a banner, is there a need to shoot them in the face?

We also play that a single weapon destroyed result takes care of all 4 missiles, are we doing that wrong too?

Terminus wrote:you can mince words all you want, but unless it specifically spells it out

"If the Commissar's unit failed a morale test the commander will summarily execute the squad's current commander"

How much more clear does it need to be for you?

Is a successful re-roll still a failed morale test?

Can you re-roll a passed morale test?

Because if you're failing morale tests before you re-roll them, the commissar shoots someone.

GW rules are descriptive in nature, they aren't a boolean operation. Obviously there are a number of people that disagree with your interpretation.

My personal rule of thumb is if the wording is unclear, go with common sense. It makes more sense that a soldier considering fleeing, but being re-emboldened by a company standard wouldn't need to be shot in the head, unless the commissar is psychic and read that brief internal struggle.

Dual Power Blobs with Radar Dish (Inquisitor Lord with Mystics and Psychic Hood) Straken (For Fearless) Dual Psyker Battle Squads and a Callidus is the most powerful army in the game at 1850 and a monkey could play it. So yes, Close Combat Guard works.

Terminus wrote:My personal rule of thumb is if the wording is unclear, go with common sense.

Once again, how is the wording unclear?

I can't see how this could possibly be spoon-fed to a person more easily. Supplanting clearly written rules with your own personal notion of common sense because rules are merely "descriptive" doesn't sound like the way to interpret said rules correctly.

The same could be said about your insistence that a manticore has four individual weapons, when it's "clearly written" and "spoon-fed" to you that it is just one weapon with four shots.

Obviously this is not just my personal notion of common sense, since that is the way it is played at three distinct LGSs that I frequent, that is the way it was ruled by INAT, and discussions about how this plays show up often and are just as split in opinion as we are.

So there are other people who are confused by clearly worded rules. What does that say about the confused?

RAW is not a popularity contest.

So now we've gone from slight hypocrisy to full-blown self-righteousness? Fun stuff.

Okay, I think we're done here, whoever else is reading the thread can make their own decision.

In general, once a re-roll happens the 1st roll is considered never to have existed (except for preventing further re-rolls). So yes, the standard could be used to override the summary execution rule.