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Terminus wrote:Okay, I think we're done here, whoever else is reading the thread can make their own decision.

He's right, the commy still blasts someone since its not mutually exclusive, if you fail a test, you get to reroll /and/ if you fail a test, he blasts someone, its not if you fail, you blast someone for the reroll. Its just like if you had 2 effects on a unit that get triggered when you take casualties, they would both happen, you don't just pick one.

Also the funny part about the above "best army in the game at 1850" is that is gets absolutely dismantled by some of the weaker armies out there (necrons would give it a run, as would grey knights) basically massed bolter fire is IG infantry's worst enemy, but it is completely counter to the metagame which is why IG blobs are powerful. In a world of "how much anti tank can i cram into a list" you are running a green tide list without the morale issues and better shooting (but less attacks)

I think this is one for YMDC (or, better, for asking GW to FAQ, eventually, when they next update stuff). I don't play Guard (but do own the codex). I'd let a Guard player make the reroll before making the execution though. BRB on rerolls says that the re-roll "counts" which to me (and to anyone who has ever made a re-roll, I think) implies that if you've chosen to make a re-roll, the original roll "doesn't count". It's as though you'd never made the original roll; the new roll stands, even if you don't like it as much as you like the 1st one.

On the topic at hand, I found out that spamming smaller power blobs (20 man/2 GL +Pwr + commissar) really changes the way you can CC.

Make your charge with the first squad, or lure them in. Assault with your second squad from that platoon, and they're surrounded by 6 power weapons (4 Sgt, 2 commissar) and 40 guys. Suddenly, they can't run away if if they fail morale. What's that? Your squad got wiped out? Sucks to be you.

The main problem with IG CC is that it costs a ton of points to do effectively. But when it's effective, boy is it it's overwhelming. Which is the imperial guard in a nutshell.

So something I've found quite useful in a blob army (or even with a blob) is Al'Rahem. He's expensive, but allowing his whole platoon to outflank is golden. With an astropath, you get to (more than likely) get the side you want that blob coming in on, and your units can effectivly have a 13-18 inch assualt threat range thanks to Al'Rahem's "Like the Wond" order. Cheaper (by a bit, I think) and, in my opinion, more effective than Creed.

Lonecoon wrote:On the topic at hand, I found out that spamming smaller power blobs (20 man/2 GL +Pwr + commissar) really changes the way you can CC.

Make your charge with the first squad, or lure them in. Assault with your second squad from that platoon, and they're surrounded by 6 power weapons (4 Sgt, 2 commissar) and 40 guys. Suddenly, they can't run away if if they fail morale. What's that? Your squad got wiped out? Sucks to be you.

The main problem with IG CC is that it costs a ton of points to do effectively. But when it's effective, boy is it it's overwhelming. Which is the imperial guard in a nutshell.

good idea but what support do you give such a horde?

Straken would be a good start.

I agree with including straken, especially when paired with a nearby lord commisar providing, ahem, "moral support". In my army i run 4, 20 man blob squads rather bare with AT support from HWS and vendettas.

Just to mix things up a bit, another guard unit that is decent in assaults: storm troopers. Now, with stormtroopers i have to mention that i normally used them as a quick response unit to fill a hole in my lines and not as a suicide melta squad. Also concerning stormies: i have never lost an assault with them (note this is typically stupid luck on my part). I just have them shoot off their pistols and charge them in, even against a tervigon, which they actually won the assault due to TERRIBLE rolling on the tyranid side and wonderful rolling on mine. Yeah, i play for laughs not so much to win...

I love running an assault happy guard army for the simple fact that it is hilarious actually winning assaults with simple guardsmen. Oh, and the fact that every time i do assault, the benny hill theme starts playing in my head.

Out of curiosity, I'm debating what taking Creed in a power blob army would do. With Creed and a pair of 30 man blobs (with Power Weapon Commissar and Priest, of course), and some nice placement, I could have 16 rerollable Power Weapon attacks on the charge with S4, I4, and that sounds like an awesome deal to me.

However, I am a bit worried about what fearless wounds would do to me.....

this whole thing sounds like an oxymoron

ChrisWWII wrote:Out of curiosity, I'm debating what taking Creed in a power blob army would do. With Creed and a pair of 30 man blobs (with Power Weapon Commissar and Priest, of course), and some nice placement, I could have 16 rerollable Power Weapon attacks on the charge with S4, I4, and that sounds like an awesome deal to me.

remember that sarges get 2 attacks + 2 close combat weapons, + the charge, so its 16 /per/ plob I usually run two plobs close together with one priest, and have the preist join from the rear whichever squad is going to be joining a combat, gets a little more mileage out of him.
When people say expensive, they mean expensive for IG, usually if you get one good charge with a pblob against a MEQ or similiar unit, you are making your points back on the initial charge, handily.

Ailaros wrote: IA still needs opponent permission.

"sigh"
no it don't need permission
but that is pretty irrelevant as you always need opponents permission to play

mebobsayhi9 wrote:this whole thing sounds like an oxymoron

Face a massed power blob IG army, and then say close combat guard is an oxymoron.

Grundz wrote:]
He's right, the commy still blasts someone since its not mutually exclusive, if you fail a test, you get to reroll /and/ if you fail a test, he blasts someone, its not if you fail, you blast someone for the reroll. Its just like if you had 2 effects on a unit that get triggered when you take casualties, they would both happen, you don't just pick one.

Example of precedent? Rulebook page number? FAQ reference?

We have unclear RaW vs. common-sense RaI. I mean, if a soldier is on the verge of breaking, but is re-emboldened by the flag of his regiment and launches himself back into combat, why would the commissar shoot him? I mean, how would he even know the soldier momentarily waivered in his commitment?

Terminus wrote:

Grundz wrote:]
He's right, the commy still blasts someone since its not mutually exclusive, if you fail a test, you get to reroll /and/ if you fail a test, he blasts someone, its not if you fail, you blast someone for the reroll. Its just like if you had 2 effects on a unit that get triggered when you take casualties, they would both happen, you don't just pick one.

Example of precedent? Rulebook page number? FAQ reference?

We have unclear RaW vs. common-sense RaI. I mean, if a soldier is on the verge of breaking, but is re-emboldened by the flag of his regiment and launches himself back into combat, why would the commissar shoot him? I mean, how would he even know the soldier momentarily waivered in his commitment?

Or you could see it as the group turns to run, and then the guy with the standard holds it out and say, "No, my brothers, we must fight for the honor of our regiment." At the same time a Commissar says to himself, "Aw, hell no" and blams someone. For whichever reason, they give running away a second thought. You can make a story for either argument.

I agree with Ailaros that both of the effects getting triggered is pretty much the easiest answer. Otherwise you have to come up with reasons that the standard takes precedence, or why the Commissar does. There's no support for either of those in the RAW, so the "both" answer satisfies all the rules without digging for reasons that aren't specifically supported. However, this is one of the few cases where I'd let my opponent play either way most times, or at least dice it.

Okay, like my $.02 is really going to change this, but here goes:

RS gives you a re-roll of failed Morale test. The Summary Execution says if his unit fails, he shoots.
you not getting a reroll from the banner, before he shoots is like saying you roll a 1 on your plasma gun,
make the save, but still lose the model because you rolled a 1. i know, bad example, but you get what i mean.

in short, i think the banner would take it's effect before the Commissar would shoot.

Only, if you pass your armor save with the plasma gun, you don't remove the model.

But I would play it like a twin linked plasma weapon shot. If you roll a 1 on your first roll, you don't take the wound, you get to reroll to hit first, and if you still roll a 1, then you take the wound. Similarly, I would say that you roll, fail the check, then you get your reroll, and if you fail both, THEN the Commissar shoots you.

I'm liking this plasma gun analogy, will have to remember it for the next time this argument comes up.

Back on the original topic, I saw something new with power blobs at Conflict GT this weekend.

1. Buy a lord commissar and give him a camo cloak.

2. Join him to the power blob, and put them in cover.

Because of the GW FAQ that says a character with stealth gives stealth to the whole unit, your blob now has a 3+ cover save (2+ if they go to ground).

The lord commissar character isn't usually worth the expense, but this was really effective against my particular army because I was short on flamer type weapons, so I had to shoot them all to death the hard way. Also I sometimes deal with blobs using massed tank shocks (from Eldar grav tanks) but the Ld10 and meltaguns in the unit discouraged that. Also I guess you could then include the power fist on the commissar lord, although he can still be picked out.

Also the army I played against used a unit of conscripts interleaved with the blob to make sure they always had a cover save (half of the conscripts hung out in area terrain). The commissar lord gives the conscripts and any HWSs in the area his leadership, for a mass of infantry that wasn't going to be displaced by non-flamer shooting.