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It might be more the ld-test when they lose a model that hurts. But they SHOULD have a marshal in the army...

The more I read the more "flavor of the week" these faqs seem...

Yes, DA and BT got significantly better. Yes, they have options that trump some of the current codices.

What people seem to be failing to realize, however, is both the dex's pan out a lot the same; Termis with CML's and TH/SS, Cheap speeders. BT have PoTMS on all their vehicles (as before); but doesn't their PoTMS still read as shooting at BS 2? DA, as before, can run a crapload of termis... but with ML's attached. Thats cool. People will still deal with them the same was as TH/SS termis are dealt with now; lots of plasma, power weapons, etc. or swamp them with a crapload of gaunts/orcs and they'll fail saves.

I agree that BT/DA will make a stronger showing now... but honestly, I'm not as excited as seeing GK get a much needed boost lol. I do see DA trumping Loganwing; but longfang spam will still be popular, a basic GH squad is still awesome, and TWC are still op.

Well, the most important thing is that they became better.

DA was pretty much more expensive 'nilla marines with terminators and bad weapons.
BT was sort of the bottom of the pack.

Both got a much needed boost, so that they can actually do something that SW, BA and 'Nilla can't.

Zid wrote:The more I read the more "flavor of the week" these faqs seem...

Yes, DA and BT got significantly better. Yes, they have options that trump some of the current codices.

What people seem to be failing to realize, however, is both the dex's pan out a lot the same; Termis with CML's and TH/SS, Cheap speeders. BT have PoTMS on all their vehicles (as before); but doesn't their PoTMS still read as shooting at BS 2? DA, as before, can run a crapload of termis... but with ML's attached. Thats cool. People will still deal with them the same was as TH/SS termis are dealt with now; lots of plasma, power weapons, etc. or swamp them with a crapload of gaunts/orcs and they'll fail saves.

I agree that BT/DA will make a stronger showing now... but honestly, I'm not as excited as seeing GK get a much needed boost lol. I do see DA trumping Loganwing; but longfang spam will still be popular, a basic GH squad is still awesome, and TWC are still op.

I have to agree with that (although I play BT, so I'm biased ). I feel that people overestimate the power of these changes. Are they nice? You bet! Does it fix our overcosted transports, our troops or our lack of psychic defense? Nope. Definitely made the army better, but the fundamental problems (except the Kill them All! rule, which the FAQ currently tells us both to take and to ignore) are still there.

Zid wrote:The more I read the more "flavor of the week" these faqs seem...

Yes, DA and BT got significantly better. Yes, they have options that trump some of the current codices.

What people seem to be failing to realize, however, is both the dex's pan out a lot the same; Termis with CML's and TH/SS, Cheap speeders. BT have PoTMS on all their vehicles (as before); but doesn't their PoTMS still read as shooting at BS 2? DA, as before, can run a crapload of termis... but with ML's attached. Thats cool. People will still deal with them the same was as TH/SS termis are dealt with now; lots of plasma, power weapons, etc. or swamp them with a crapload of gaunts/orcs and they'll fail saves.

I agree that BT/DA will make a stronger showing now... but honestly, I'm not as excited as seeing GK get a much needed boost lol. I do see DA trumping Loganwing; but longfang spam will still be popular, a basic GH squad is still awesome, and TWC are still op.

I agree with you to an extent, but this is still going to massively improve particular builds within these Codices. And as many of us know, when it comes to competitive play, it's not about how many variants of an army you can bring, but how good an army you can bring. Whilst every competitive DA/BT army may be a replica of one-another, it still won't change that these lists are massively improved...

PoTMS is available on a wide range of BT vehicles and IS BALLISTIC SKILL FOUR. (Yakface).
Both armies strongest units (Termies) have just gone from recieving a 4++ in close combat to a 3++ all the time, which is a massive boost.
and they can get things for less than other codices, such as Predators and Typhoons.

It's not the be all and end all and they still have their flaws, but there will now be a (limited) number of competitive builds available within these codices IMHO.

Furthermore: This could potentially change the Meta, alongside the GK upcoming release.

Reecius wrote:

How does 5 units of terminators with preferred enemy and 4 strength 9, 48" shots a turn sound? Loganwing can kiss the BT's arse!

Did you mean units of 5 terminators rather than 5 units of terminators? I don't have their codex as as far as I can tell on army builder BT have no way to make termies troops or gain more than 3 units of them.

You can take two units of Terminator Command Squads for Black Templar, with nearly-identical weapon options (so each squad is another pair of tank-hunting Cyclones).

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that GE will update them again before Ard Boys and version 1.2 will up the cost of cyclones to 30 points a pop. That being said they are still awesome at 20 or 30 points. Once the point cost of cyclones goes up to 5th ed prices the hard choice for BT players will be choosing between tank hunting AC shots or tank hunting cyclone shots.

Personally I think DA are even more of a contender than BT now because their termies count as troops, and they can mix assault with tactical termies. The one downside to the double heavy weapon BT termie squad is I don't think they can take storm shields. Scoring DA termiees with ss and a cyclone sounds like the way to go.

schadenfreude wrote:
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that GE will update them again before Ard Boys and version 1.2 will up the cost of cyclones to 30 points a pop. That being said they are still awesome at 20 or 30 points. Once the point cost of cyclones goes up to 5th ed prices the hard choice for BT players will be choosing between tank hunting AC shots or tank hunting cyclone shots.

Personally I think DA are even more of a contender than BT now because their termies count as troops, and they can mix assault with tactical termies. The one downside to the double heavy weapon BT termie squad is I don't think they can take storm shields. Scoring DA termiees with ss and a cyclone sounds like the way to go.

Each DA terminator squad can have a TH/SS with a cyclone missile launcher. As well as the rest of them having TH/SS

MagicJuggler wrote:You can take two units of Terminator Command Squads for Black Templar, with nearly-identical weapon options (so each squad is another pair of tank-hunting Cyclones).

So about 1325 for 5 squads of them putting out 20 krak missiles with a +1 to pen per turn. That does sound like a hard counter to mech. The only thing I think they would have a hard time dealing with would be an assault orientated army where the bulk of the army has a 2+ armor save.

Ailaros wrote:out of curiosity, did they also FAQ away their stupid permanent +1 cover save?

Yes, they changed righteous zeal to be units not "pinned or falling back" to units not "gone to ground or falling back".


This was a very much needed change amongst many others. On another note, I think the general nerf to smoke launchers vs POTMS was in the right. However the ruling on space marines combat squadding out of a drop pod surprised me.

Just Dave wrote:

Zid wrote:The more I read the more "flavor of the week" these faqs seem...

Yes, DA and BT got significantly better. Yes, they have options that trump some of the current codices.

What people seem to be failing to realize, however, is both the dex's pan out a lot the same; Termis with CML's and TH/SS, Cheap speeders. BT have PoTMS on all their vehicles (as before); but doesn't their PoTMS still read as shooting at BS 2? DA, as before, can run a crapload of termis... but with ML's attached. Thats cool. People will still deal with them the same was as TH/SS termis are dealt with now; lots of plasma, power weapons, etc. or swamp them with a crapload of gaunts/orcs and they'll fail saves.

I agree that BT/DA will make a stronger showing now... but honestly, I'm not as excited as seeing GK get a much needed boost lol. I do see DA trumping Loganwing; but longfang spam will still be popular, a basic GH squad is still awesome, and TWC are still op.

I agree with you to an extent, but this is still going to massively improve particular builds within these Codices. And as many of us know, when it comes to competitive play, it's not about how many variants of an army you can bring, but how good an army you can bring. Whilst every competitive DA/BT army may be a replica of one-another, it still won't change that these lists are massively improved...

PoTMS is available on a wide range of BT vehicles and IS BALLISTIC SKILL FOUR. (Yakface).
Both armies strongest units (Termies) have just gone from recieving a 4++ in close combat to a 3++ all the time, which is a massive boost.
and they can get things for less than other codices, such as Predators and Typhoons.

It's not the be all and end all and they still have their flaws, but there will now be a (limited) number of competitive builds available within these codices IMHO.

Furthermore: This could potentially change the Meta, alongside the GK upcoming release.

Change the meta, I could definitely agree. But turn the meta into a completely new ball game? Dunno so much. I do see many more terminator heavy/infantry heavy lists coming out tho; which will be neat. Tired of facing Mech IG players ><

There has been some mention of Las/plas squads being a good option.

What in the FAQ had any effect on this sort of load out? I'm not seein' it.

Anyway...I'm kinda pumped about the changes. In friendly games I play, my opponent has let me assault out of my LRC before now. So that's not a biggie for me.
The boost to CMLs and SSs is awesome though.

Man...now I really want to glue a bunch of shields onto my Assault marines.

I see a lot of robes coming out of attics and being dusted off in the near future.

... wow and they've also found better ammo for their shot guns ... my friends going to be pleased he's likes to run Neophyte with shotguns they just got better for free.

... I'm guessing I'll be seeing 5 man terminator units with 2 missile launchers and tank hunter as well ....

Reecius wrote:Not even close! BTs just went up to the top of the heap, the lists you can pull out of that book are insane now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dark Angels too! Damn, they went from the worst MEQ books up to fething awesome in the speed of one FAQ! haha.

How many "counts as" wolves do you think will be "counts as" BTs and DAs now?

I know mine will be doing all of the above !haha.

Mine won't The more i play the SW Dex, the more fun I have with it. Although I am tempted haha... my original CSM army was meant to be comprised of the fallen, so I've got quite a few Angel-esque CSM's (robes etc), but its just temptation for now. Besides, counts as chaos lacks one thing- those lists don't have daemon princes/daemons ><!

Well, in my BloodLord Nightangles army Mephiston is a DP.

Ok, let's talk tactics on the subject. I have 4 armies that I am playing and/or building.

My DOA list is completely screwed, but the BA codex is still competitive. It relies on 2 things. First is the toughness of massive number of FNP power armor assault marines, which is negated by both massed cyclone missile launchers and massed terminator power weapons/fists/hammers. Second is it relies on dumping a massive number of I5 regular wounds on units, which is largely negated by TDA. The end result is both DA, BT, and Loganwing are a hard counter to DOA. The funny part is the best hard counter I can think of against the new BT army would be a BA army that has nothing but Sanguinary Guard for troops, priests, and terminators. Cyclone ML just don't do much against a 2+ armor, and I5 power weapons will tear through the 25 regular tactical termies and their 5+ armor save as BT are unable to take any SS in their dreaded duel cyclone tank hunter squads. The ability to mix in SS make DA a better rounded army that has no obvious hard counter that I can think of.

My Chaos army is completely screwed, but the chaos codex is still competitive. The problem with my chaos list is it depends on MC and AP3 weapons to win, and that's not going to work on either the new BT or DA. Either army should be able to stomp duel lash prince lists, but duel sorcerer lists should do very well against either. Vanilla CSM are not that expensive, and it would take 36 krak missiles to take out 10 CSM in cover making lash sorcerers in cover with a squad very safe from cyclone missile launchers. Summoned Lesser Deamons are even better at taking a krak missiles to the face, a group could be summoned into cover and the sorcerer could then detach from a ruined squad into a fresh squad of SLD that would act as even cheaper ablative wounds. In the mean time BT would be especially vulnerable to lash+oblits because they can't have storm shields on their double cyclone tac terminators. DA are once again the better rounded list. The net result here is I really do think the meta game will change quite a bit in that more chaos players will switch from lash princes to lash sorcerers.

Orks should be happy. Yea the BT will suck because they can really blow up open topped ork transports, but krak and frag missiles are not the end of the world for ork infantry. As much as orks might have problems against these new lists orks also have solutions to these new lists. IMO most ork armies would be a fair fight against the new BT and DA.

IG is such a long and complicated subject I'm going to start a new thread for IG.

@Jihallah
Haha, I know what you mean! My Marines are a combination of so many different MEQs that I can counts as them as whatever and they don't look too out of place. I love DIY marines, so much more bang for your buck. You can get a lot more variety that way.

@Schadenfreude
DOA, at least IMO, was never top tier. Daemons, Bugs and Footdar munch them. Everytime I play them, I wipe them, or come close to it. My Wolves Bugs, and Footdar just obliterate them with such ease. I have seen them school IG, but against assault armies that swing first and ignore FnP and armor, or against armies with massive anti-infantry, they just struggle.

As for the BT, I think that taking an powerful assault unit will be a must to have a really well rounded list. You need to be able to counter hordes and deathstars.

I agree that lash sorcerer chaos (princes don't cut it in today's shooty meta for the most part) will pown DA. With no ld10 hood (besides horrible Ezekiel) they have no way of reliably stopping lash. That will really make them struggle.

BT are in the same boat for the termie squads, but with the mass of vehicles that they should be taking, they can largely ignore it.

I actually think the BTs will outshine the DAs on the whole as they are so much more flexible. I coul dbe wrong as perhaps with RW/DW combos you can get around the drawbacks of pure DW, but as of now, I see the BTs as having more potential due to a higher number of viable units to put on the table.

I did very well with my DOA list, at least it got me into the Ard Boys finals and won me a bunch of orksies. I never had a problem with Deamons (except a 24 bloodcrusher load out would be a problem), and really didn't have a problem with footdar. I really don't see the problem with BA versus footdar since FC means they wound those pointy eared bastards on a 2+, and the jump packs means they can outmaneuver footdar. I think the problem you're seeing with BA v foodar is that you're a good player, and if DOA don't use their speed to outmaneuver an opponent they can loose to anybody, especially when a good player is involved.

Loganwing is a hard counter to BT. 5 Wolf Guard termies with 1 cyclone, 1 chainfist, 4 power weapons, 1 combi melta, and 3 combi plasma=230 points. CML will just plink off both sides. Even if the BT get the charge there will not be enough left of one of their 5 man termie squads to take the SW after they eat 6 plasma and a melta gun shot. DA with TH/SS on the other hand....they can take some plasma gun shots and still come out swinging.

Yeah, that is a good point. I think all the DoA players I played but 1, were just not that good with the army. They would deep-strike into my assault envelope, assault my screening units, etc. They pretty much played into my hands which is probably why I don't think much of DoA right now. The one player I went against who knew his stuff, had a mixed DoA army and the only reason it was close was because he stole the initiative from me. Any army really, in good hands, can be powerful.

Footdar works well when played right as the Footdar player dictates who you can assault and where. They have a large envelope of flak fire death that even with FnP is going to take chunks out. Plus, Harlies murder MEQ units, especially when combined with Doom and Fortune. It is by no means an auto-win of course, it depends on the players, but I would feel really confident going into that match-up.

Congrats on the Semis win! I got a tie game vs. Mechdar that knocked me out of the winner's circle.

DA may very well be the better build. Fearless, kick-ass troops is no joke and plays to the strengths of 5th ed missions. I think that DA will just have a huge weakness to dual lash chaos and to very high RoF armies that can win the war of attrition. Horde Orks, for example, would probably walk through Deathwing.

I am going to playtest both lists more to see if there is a real GT winner in there. I still lean towards BTs, but that is all theory at this point and I could be totally wrong.

I think that the biggest weakness the termy heavy lists have is Scoring units and objectives.

Scoring terminators is nice, but anything walking is SLOW. DA terms will only be getting to the objectives by the end of the game, unless they teleport onto them. Then they have trouble getting reinforcements to help hold the objectives. We may see a lot of games where the DA shoot/assault a ton of stuff and do not die much, but just cna't get to the objectives.

BT are even worse on the scoring front. You have the Las/plas squads for back objectives, but 5 marines die like a puff of smoke in assault, even with 2 ccws and preferred enemy. Any fast outflankers, (especially snikrot or Wolf scouts) can get to your back holders and take them out no problem. Then, if you want to move around with your crusaders, you either need an expensive rhino, or a land raider, neither is very competitive. Otherwise you are walking to the middle objectives hoping your 3+/4+ armor holds out long enough. Even a 20 man crusader squad will not make it across the board to take an objective on foot.


That being said, they get very very cheep firepower, and as such you can probably do very well in a Kill Points/Victory points game

for those with already built/finished BT and DA termie heavy armies...


is this really going to make your armies WIP again? will people whose armies are relatively complete start taking hobby knives to their terminators' shoulders? i don't know if i'm in the minority but i feel that, while a definite boost in power compared to before, the changes don't even come close to making a termie heavy BT/DA force equal to the power of a SW list. the FNP is nice but its only on one 5 man deathwing squad as opposed to the previous "saved" terminator within 6" (and NOT necessarily from the same squad) every player turn. the 3++ SS is admittedly quite nice but no better than what vanilla marines have had for 2 years... is it worthwhile? sure, but no more so than in a vanilla MEQ force. the same is true of POTMS (although in the crusader's case, you do get a "free" multimelta compared with vanilla). i've seen a bunch of people talking about making new armies with nothing but th/ss squads and i can understand that but i'm wondering what the old timers will do. personally, i've hacked off 3 terminator arms to convert them to th/ss, bringing my total up to 1 per squad (6/30). the boost is enough for me to convert a few extra guys with the bits i already own but not enough for me to go hunting on the already inflated bits market for these add-ons. if anything, i see the storm raven as being a bigger potential boost to the army as long as all marines get limited access to it via the flyer rules coming up (ala the old LRC gimmick in 3rd edition). armor 12 immune to melta fast skimmer with locator beacon??? yes please!

Tactics wise I am basically using the same list that I was running before. But now, with the changes up to date I think that the army will become more of a competitive force.

For scoring units with BT, I suggest the following:

5 man las/plas 101 points, and shoots pretty well...so long as they shoot what you want them too! Can add initiates for ablative wounds.

5 man in a Lazorback: no "kill them all" test and only 170 points. Mobile firepower. 20 points more than SW pay, 10 more than SM. Still pretty decent in assault if needs be.

5 man in a Rhino: 130 points, cheap, mobile, scoring unit. Not terrible in assault.

Same as above plus las cannon and maybe plas: 145-151 points. Cheapest, mech las cannon option. Can't move and shoot, must take "kill them all" test.

I think that is going to be the best solutions for BT scoring units.

Also, taking an Inquisitor or GKGM will help shore up their vulnerability to psykers.

I'm just throwing this in here since it's BT talk time, does anyone know... if you take the abhor the witch vow, do your vehicles get to make the d6" move at the start of the game if your opponent has a psyker in their army?

Yes.

Ballin! Thanks.

I'd be cautious about building a BT army based on double cyclone termie squads, who knows when it'll be nerfed to the 1 per 5 current standard ?
It'll be fun while it lasts though.