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da001 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Yes, in reality, armies spend a lot of effort to make their weapons as safe as possible to their own side. No-one would use a weapon that wounded its operator one in six shots.
40K is just a game.

Checkers is a game. 40k is a wargame based on a background. It is trying to represent an incredible rich and amazing universe. From my point of view (fluff addict) if a rule fails to do that, it is failing as a rule, no matter how balanced it is.
It is just an opinion, of course. I am here mostly for the fluff. I play sparsely, and usually lose. I think w40k may be 33% painting / modeling, 33% "just a game" and 33% books and background stuff.

From a fluffy point of view, I think gloomygrim got it right.
Never tried to explain Gets Hot! to a nooby? It is an akward moment. Most of them say "that´s pretty stupid" or something similar. It just make no sense. Like a Berserker hitting a vendetta with an axe.

I'm not a fluff addict. I like it but I prefer a balanced game on the tabletop to one that is "realistic" in accordance with the 40K novels. If we made the game like the novels, then we would play the game for five turns and then no matter what happened in those five turns we would simply roll a dice in turn 6 for a "surprise twist ending".

The minis preceeded the game which preceeded the fluff. I agree that the 40K fluff has becoming some of the richest in gaming history and mostly seems to be getting even better as the Horus Heresy (30K?) line continues, but the fluff and the game are all about selling and marketing more miniatures. There is some blurring of lines since many of the GW staff also love the game and the fluff, but the bottom line is sales. A balanced game is good for sales or so I believe since I dropped WHFB like a leper's handshake once the fantasy game became competitive for only three armies.

If you truly want a fluffy version for "House Rules", replace the model that had the overheat with a model equipped with only his/her remaining weapons, but don't allow an armor save to possibly cancel the overheat. The overheat is simply a weapon malfunction. You could also put a token next to the model so that you remember that it lost its plasma weapon. In normal games, I just think of the unfortunate model as incapacitated rather than dead, but you are correct in that my commissars will never carry plasma weapons.

I am at a loss at to what people want.

If I say it's only a game, so don't worry about realism, people say they want the game to reflect the fluff.

The fluff is that plasma weapons are dangerous to the operator. The IoM does not understand the technology it uses, and some of it is dangerous.

DogOfWar wrote:

da001 wrote:Imagine you are a Commissar. Will you really fire your weapon against a cultist?

Of course not, and fluff-wise a Commissar wouldn't use a Plasma Pistol against an unarmoured enemy either. They would save their shots for high-value targets like the rear armour of tanks, Chaos Space Marines, etc. For everything else, the trusty bolt-pistol is king.

Nice answer, didn´t think about it that way.

JB wrote:
If we made the game like the novels, then we would play the game for five turns and then no matter what happened in those five turns we would simply roll a dice in turn 6 for a "surprise twist ending".

JB wrote:
If you truly want a fluffy version for "House Rules", replace the model that had the overheat with a model equipped with only his/her remaining weapons, but don't allow an armor save to possibly cancel the overheat. The overheat is simply a weapon malfunction. You could also put a token next to the model so that you remember that it lost it's plasma weapon.

Hummmm... that sounds good too.
15 pts? Will the "no-armor-save" thing balance the "you-survive" thing cost-wise?

As a side note, I do believe fluff and balance are not mutually exclusive. Most rules are balanced and fluffy (as it is intended), there are just a few exceptions.

I gotta agree with a lot of you plasma guns arnt worth the extra point go with melta. Too bad the meltas arent in the space wolves box

The majority of fluff surrounding plasma guns always mentions the heat guage of the gun building up. Fluff wise the first few shots you don't have to worry about anything. Its always in the middle of the fight after the twentyith shot, half his sqaud is dead, and he's being overran that the operator stops caring about letting the weapon cool down that accidents happen.

The fist of dorn book is a perfect example. Three sm scouts are holding an access point. Two with bolters, one with a plasma (pistol or gun I don't remember). At first, the plasma is slowly taking shots at the chaos marines approching, always ducking back into cover to let the gun cool down while the other two cover him. After one dies and the other is wounded, the plasma scout has no choice but to fire away, throwing the weapon away just before the weapon redlines and explodes.

How do you want this represented in-game. Something simple; or something convolted and annoying that ups the chance of Gets Hot! based on game turn, or keeping track of how many shots the model has fired.

Seriously, I'll take simple and not-as-fluffy any day.

Kilkrazy wrote:I am at a loss at to what people want.

If I say it's only a game, so don't worry about realism, people say they want the game to reflect the fluff.

Some people want fluff, some people want painting, some people want balanced games. There is no way to find out what people want.
For me, being defeated is not a problem, but a silly rule (plasma, flyers, wound allocation) can ruin my fun.

Kilkrazy wrote: The fluff is that plasma weapons are dangerous to the operator. The IoM does not understand the technology it uses, and some of it is dangerous.

Veldrain wrote:
The fist of dorn book is a perfect example. Three sm scouts are holding an access point. Two with bolters, one with a plasma (pistol or gun I don't remember). At first, the plasma is slowly taking shots at the chaos marines approching, always ducking back into cover to let the gun cool down while the other two cover him. After one dies and the other is wounded, the plasma scout has no choice but to fire away, throwing the weapon away just before the weapon redlines and explodes.

^This^.

Plasma is dangerous, but the rule does not represent the fluff. And does not make sense too. There is a choice there: you can fire it safely or risking your life. There are many ways to implement that, most of them annoying and complicated.
Another try: fire it once, safe; fire it twice, Gets Hot!

Hi all.
I am not sure if this was from Epic SM or an earlier version of 40k.
'Gets hot'.
A weapon that 'gets hot' needs a turn to cool down after firing.
Eg,
A plasma pistol fired in turn 2 can not fire again untill turn 4.

Just a thought.

TTFN

Another interpretation of the rule is that when you roll 1 it means that the gun operator was forced by circumstances or by accident to let the gun reach overload.

da001 wrote:I mean, one out of six shoots you get incapacitated? What kind of weapon is that? How can commissars, aspiring champions or sergeants survive a campaign?

"Incapacitate" typically doesn't mean "killed". It means that the user is out of action. That could be serious. Or it could be that the guy just has a number of first degree burns and will need a couple of days of rest before he can reasonably be expected to fight again.

No-one would use a weapon that wounded its operator one in six shots.

That's the Eldar view of things, which is why the Starcannon doesn't blow up. However it's also (presumably) the reason why the Starcannon has a lower strength than the Plasma Cannon and no blast template.

Eumerin wrote:
"Incapacitate" typically doesn't mean "killed". It means that the user is out of action. That could be serious. Or it could be that the guy just has a number of first degree burns and will need a couple of days of rest before he can reasonably be expected to fight again.

If you are an aspiring champion, you can not do that on a regular basis. And marines are not supposed to take rests. Your squad leaders and veterans can not go to rest two days one out of six times they fire their weapon.

Eumerin wrote:
That's the Eldar view of things, which is why the Starcannon doesn't blow up. However it's also (presumably) the reason why the Starcannon has a lower strength than the Plasma Cannon and no blast template.

That´s the human view too in the fluff. Veldrain talked about Fist of Dorn, but there are many examples. Lots of people use plasma without being incapacitated day in day out. In the fluff, plasma is dangerous when you are under pressure. Actually, I think the rule is trying to get where Kiikrazy has just said:

Kilkrazy wrote:Another interpretation of the rule is that when you roll 1 it means that the gun operator was forced by circumstances or by accident to let the gun reach overload.

But the rule is no good: a veteran, in his first shoot, shouldn´t be incapacitated. This inability at firing and taking care of his own weapon is unacceptable in a squad leader. If they do not serve in combat, they will serve on the firing line.

Even more important than the "one out of six" thing is the lack of choice. You are supposed to be able to fire a plasma gun without blowing your hand off. But if you willingly fire it too fast or too much you are taking a risk. I like the risk, but only if it is my choice.

What about the last proposed rule?
"Fire it once, safe; fire it twice, Gets Hot!"
Sounds easy. Balance problems?

da001 wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
"Incapacitate" typically doesn't mean "killed". It means that the user is out of action. That could be serious. Or it could be that the guy just has a number of first degree burns and will need a couple of days of rest before he can reasonably be expected to fight again.

If you are an aspiring champion, you can not do that on a regular basis. And marines are not supposed to take rests. Your squad leaders and veterans can not go to rest two days one out of six times they fire their weapon.

Except that sometimes you have to take rests. If you took a bullet to the gut, you're going to be taking a rest. If you took shrapnel from a shell that exploded too close, you're going to be taking a rest. If you had a bad concussion and your head is ringing, then you're going to be taking a rest. What's worse - a single Space Marine recovering to the point where his skin isn't in agony when he puts on his power armor and holds weapons because his weapon exploded when he was taking out the third tank in a squadron? Or an entire squad "resting" (some of them six feet under, minus their geneseed) because a tank shell landed in the middle of them and they were wounded by shrapnel?

Neither solution is optimal, obviously. But one is clearly better than the other.

And first degree burns typically heal fairly quickly - at least when compared to most injuries that are suffered on the battlefield.

But two days of rest every six times your fire your weapon?

And if we are talking about marines, then it gets even more complicated to visualize that. Plasma guns are given to leaders.

da001 wrote:But two days of rest every six times your fire your weapon?

And if we are talking about marines, then it gets even more complicated to visualize that. Plasma guns are given to leaders.

Then give him a different weapon instead.

Remember that plasma weapons - for the Imperium, at least - are "risk/reward" items. If you view the risk as being worth the reward, then you use the plasma weapon. If you don't think that it's worth it, then you bring a devastator squad. It's not as if there isn't anything else in the various lists that fills a similar role. It's just that the rest of them aren't man-portable with Rapid Fire. Some people aren't going to see it worth the risk. For others, it's a no-brainer to use it.

Eumerin wrote:
Then give him a different weapon instead.

But I like plasmas. Most of my units have plasma.
I like the way they are in the fluff, I like the risk, I like the cost, I like it in the game. I mostly play against marines so they are useful. I do not see any real alternative, at least in a CSM army.

In spite of that, the current rule regarding "Gets Hot!" its stupid and does not represent the fluff. It is not the worse rule logic-wise (flyers and heavy weapons come to my mind, with wound allocation claiming for attention), but comes close. This is the reason for proposing another rule: the feeling that something is wrong with the current one. The answer "take another option" just do not work.

What is wrong with the proposed rules on this threat? What will make you say "no way" if proposed in a game? The cost?
What makes a proposed rule good for you?

da001 wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
Then give him a different weapon instead.

But I like plasmas. Most of my units have plasma.
I like the way they are in the fluff, I like the risk, I like the cost, I like it in the game. I mostly play against marines so they are useful. I do not see any real alternative, at least in a CSM army.

In spite of that, the current rule regarding "Gets Hot!" its stupid and does not represent the fluff. It is not the worse rule logic-wise (flyers and heavy weapons come to my mind, with wound allocation claiming for attention), but comes close. This is the reason for proposing another rule: the feeling that something is wrong with the current one. The answer "take another option" just do not work.

What is wrong with the proposed rules on this threat? What will make you say "no way" if proposed in a game? The cost?
What makes a proposed rule good for you?

It's not fluffy.

The Imperium has problems with plasma because they don't fully understand the technology. Your rule essentially says that yes, the Imperium does have enough understanding of the technology to use it safely. And to prove that the Imperium knows how to use it safely, you're going to give them a weapon that can be fired in a mode that is barely worse than the Starcannon (i.e. the high-end safe plasma weapon used by the race that the game proclaims to be the "masters" of plasma technology), or in modes that are progressively more dangerous and powerful. If the Imperium could control plasma as well as your idea suggests, then they'd be using more weapons like that.

Also, since vehicles have sufficient cooling systems in place to ignore "Gets Hot", you've now basically handed every single vehicle-mounted plasma weapon a strength increase.


As the Eldar will be more than happy to inform you, Mon-keigh with hand-held plasma weapons are somewhat akin to pre-Industrial peasants armed with hand grenades and M-16s. Allowing the primitives in the Imperium the ability to fine-tune their use of plasma weapons just doesn't make sense from a fluff standpoint.


The only way that I'd even consider something like this is if the alt-fire mode was basically a glorified Boltgun (i.e. S4, AP5), and the S8 mode didn't exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb7K_KUJqoQ

Gets hot in action! Watch till atleast 1:35.

Eumerin wrote:
It's not fluffy.
(...)
The only way that I'd even consider something like this is if the alt-fire mode was basically a glorified Boltgun (i.e. S4, AP5), and the S8 mode didn't exist.

And this is fluffy?
You spoke well, but it is not "fine tuning". You fire it and do not do nothing till the thing returns to a normal temperature. That´s all. Please allow the Mon-keigh that level of skill.
But you made your point. Never seen it from an Eldar point of view.

Eumerin wrote:
the Starcannon (i.e. the high-end safe plasma weapon used by the race that the game proclaims to be the "masters" of plasma technology)

Nah, only in your codex. Tyranids´ bio-plasma is far better

One question:

Eumerin wrote:
Also, since vehicles have sufficient cooling systems in place to ignore "Gets Hot", you've now basically handed every single vehicle-mounted plasma weapon a strength increase.

Why? They didn´t get hot before and they didn´t get hot now. How did their strength increase?

Surtur wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb7K_KUJqoQ
Gets hot in action! Watch till atleast 1:35.

How is that possible? This warrior is actually a Black Templar in disguise.
I mean: I am almost sure I have seen the same warrior using a Holy Orb of Antioch against a Greater Bunny Demon somewhere. Or perhaps it was someone from the same squad.
The gods are truly insane.

If you want to make plasma guns less prone to Gets Hot, they need to be costed higher than they are.

I am fantastic at rolling 1s. It is often said of me that I "must not only beat my opponent, but also my dice." So any victory is doubly awesome for me. That being the case - I just. never. use. plasma. For me, it is like simply handing my opponent those plasma armed models at the beginning of the game and saying, "Here! Have some free points! I won't be needing these...!"

Love the idea of plasma...but it never works out for me. Sometimes I field Mephiston. Anyone who whines and says, "But he's so unfair!" I just say, "But he's got a plasma pistol, and I'm using him - so he's totally balanced! I promise to shoot at you with him." They find that comforting.

Back in RT, I seem to recall Plasma needing a turn to cool down before re-firing.
People must have whined, and they brought in Gets Hot.

So, if you want a rule, mixing the two suggests it on only Gets Hot on a second turn firing without a gap in-between.

Thanks for all the input folks.

So in my op i was not 100% sure about the gets hot rule, as some folks have said things i never thought of IE commisars with PP's it has made me think alot more on what i would do as a HR for friendly games.

my new ideas are pretty much the same but with a few new changes that i think could make the game a bit more fun.

Plasma pistols,

standard fire S6 AP3 no gets hot.

Plasma guns multiple choice settings,

Standard fire S6 AP3 - no gets hot unless rapid fired.
Powered shot S7 Ap2 - Gets hot on a 1 or 2 same on rapid fire.
Over charged S8 AP1 - gets hot on a 3 same on rapid fire, destroys weapon on a roll of 1 or 2 on gets hot roll. (only usable once per game)

If on a vehicle or bike cannot use over charged, powered shot only gets hot on a 1 if the unit has moved as would cool in the air current.

Plasma cannons

Standard fire S7 AP2 gets hot on a 1 (as its bigger i dont think it would be able to less than the assault version)
Over charged S8 AP1 large blast gets hot on a 4 destroys weapon on 2 kills unit on a 1. (only usable once per game)

(if a shot is fired as over chargerd and it destroys the weapon it should be assumed that it explodes place small blast template over unit and roll saves blast damage is the same profile as the shot fired)

if on a vehicle. cannot over charge as risk of killing a vehicle is to great.

Im not saying there is anything wrong with the orig rules just adding more diversity into a battle and trying to make it a little more fun and in some cases risky. These are only ideas there not what im saying the rules should be like, it could just make the game a little more fun and in some cases the risks taken could pay off or really mess you up.

da001 wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
Also, since vehicles have sufficient cooling systems in place to ignore "Gets Hot", you've now basically handed every single vehicle-mounted plasma weapon a strength increase.

Why? They didn´t get hot before and they didn´t get hot now. How did their strength increase?

Here -

str 8 ap 2: gets hot on a 1 and 2.

Currently Imperium plasma weapons are S7 and Get Hot. Vehicle-mounted plasma weapons ignore the Gets Hot rule. Your suggestion that I quoted gives an option for S8 with an increased chance to Get Hot, which vehicles conveniently ignore...

So you are essentially increasing the strength of all vehicular plasma weapons by one point.

Christ are some of you taking the rules over the top.

Those who want to change the rules are doing so in an
overly complicated manner.

Here:

Plasma Gun
High Settings S7 AP2 Gets hot! (as normal)
Low Settings S5 AP4 (No hotness)

The whole once every other turn is too clunky and giving it S6
is stupid, its an insult to the Eldar and Tau.

There and this should hopefully be palatable for those who prefer no
extra rule. Its simple and not over powered, maybe the gun should even be
raised 5 pts to make it more fair to (so like 15/20 pts instead of 10/15)

Meh my 2 cents on the matter.

Most of these suggestions make gets hot worse. The current itteration, while not great, works. Just don't be the guardsman handed the plasma rifle.

"...and so I shot it right between the eyes! Har har!"
"Sign here for your weapon."
"Ok, here you-aw son of a...."

Eumerin wrote:
Here -

str 8 ap 2: gets hot on a 1 and 2.

Ops, I forgot.
This was the first version, just rewording gloomygrim´s.
The one I was talking was the last: "Fire it once, safe; fire it twice, Gets Hot!" (I like it simple).
Hence my confussion.

Warning: I have already changed it again. "Rapid Fire Plasma weapon within 12¨: Fire it once, safe; fire it twice, Gets Hot!"

Kilkrazy wrote:If you want to make plasma guns less prone to Gets Hot, they need to be costed higher than they are.

Agreed.
What about this one? How much?
"Rapid Fire Plasma weapon within 12¨: Fire it once, safe; fire it twice, Gets Hot!"
You can fire it safely but only once, or you can risk your life firing again.
Proposed cost?

I dont have any problems with getting hot. but then again not a single weapon in my codex has that rule.

I keep getting the feeling some people don't realize they get their armour save against Gets Hot! Not to mention FNP.

It's really not that scary... and imo S7 AP2 rapid fire is too awesome to mess with.

DoW

^^ This.

I agree, no one is forceing you to take plamsa weapons. If you are scared, only it on models with FNP and decent armor.

In the meantime, my 4X Plasma biker command squad will continue to murder heavy infantry at will.

Mmmm.... an amazing number of posters are not giving any answer.

Question: I love plasma but I think the Gets Hot! rule does not represent the fluff because this and that. I propose this alternative rule: ... What do you think of it? How many points would make it balanced?

Answers:
I like plasma.
Plasma allows FNP.
Do not take plasma if you are scared.
I like cookies!
^^ This
I like plasma too.
Plasma allows armor saves.
Blood for the blood God!!

No offense intended, just stating an interesting fact.

Good point. I'll try and answer your question more directly.

I don't like your alternative rule and I think it's unnecessary for the following reasons:

1) I think the game is balanced very well as it is (trade +1S for a risk of Gets Hot!, seems fair)
2) If the Imperium had S6 plasma, it would defeat the purpose of the other races having 'higher, safer technology.'
3) If you could 'dial' your plasma guns to whatever you needed, it would remove the tactical aspect of equipping your troops with weapons suited for a particular job. That's a part of the game I think keeps us from just being dice-monkeys.
4) The Imperium already has plenty of AP1, AP3(kinda), AP4, AP5 and AP6 weapons. Plasma fills an infantry niche.
5) I personally think it represents the fluff just fine. It's unstable, rare, risky and just because the novels never let main characters suffer Gets Hot! doesn't mean they wouldn't in the fluff universe. Most heroes are likely to have a 2+ or 3+ Sv anyway (not to mention multiple wounds) so the idea of a Gets Hot! actually killing them off is highly unlikely.

This being said, never let anyone stop you from trying something new simply because they don't like it. Just because most people on here aren't interested, doesn't mean your FLGS shouldn't house rule something that will make the game much more enjoyable for your own particular gaming group.

Take it easy.

DoW