Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Exactly, which is why I think going mech with a unit of termies or two is the real key. A vanilla 5 man termie squad takes a test on two casualties, so it isn't an enormous difference, but it is with the bigger squads were you really notice it.

The cheap vehicles is where it's at I think, with one or two shooty termie squads and a hammer unit to take advantage of preferred enemy.

I was thinking the same Reecius.

DE Wyches will struggle more with a Dreadnaught than with 5 man terminator squad.

Good dice rolling will see the Wyches killing off the Terminators before the Terminators kill off the Wyches (at least in my experience).

I'm still liking the idea of 3-6 Typhoons.

I totally agree. 6 typhoons would be brutal, and so cheap!

DE just murder infantry if they are running even a few Venoms (which they should be).

Well if your squads are all 5 man, the test for a single wound isn't the end of the world is it? Sure, it's about one more test than you'd normally take (the first guy's free!) per squad, but is that really such a huge deal, especially if they're tablewide LD 10?

Wyches are just brutal. I think probably one of the best assault units in the game.

420pts for 6 Typhoons. 12 KM's per turn or 12 frags.

Goodbye Orks.

That seals it. I'm going to repaint my terminator chaplain to be a Templar Chaplain and get to work on building a Templar Army.

Yeah, and don't forget the Heavy Bolters! Those are so useful. It can move 6" and fire the kraks and the bolters or 12" and frags and bolters. I love my Typhoons, some of the best units in my list, every time. They are anti-tank, anti-infantry and great objective contesting units.

I am definitely gong to be painting up some more units to bring BTs to a tournament, no doubt. I think they will perform very well.

@Lambadomy
Yeah, that is how I felt. You only really feel the difference on a larger squad. If you do take a large squad without a transport, it should be testing on a 9 or 10, so it should be pretty dang reliable.

Reecius wrote:

Vanilla 5 man squad in a Lazorback=165 points
BT 5 man squad in a Lazorback=170 points

Barely any difference. That squad actually contributes to the game, too. I love my Lazorbacks.

And the BT squads get ccw/bp, preferred enemy and cheap Las/plas if they want too.

I still like 2x assault cannon termies with tank hunting.

@Next level
Sure do, but they check to shoot on a ld7 roll unless you have a marshal. Pretty annoying and potentially game changing. I think the Lazorback squad will be more reliable. Also, those 5 man squads can get gutted pretty quickly, particularly by IG and especially DE. It is a viable unit though, in the right list. If they are in a largely mech list, they will die really, really fast as they are the only target for anti-infantry lists.

@Somnicide
I agree! Those things are awesome and I will for sure be taking one. The ability to deep strike too, if needed, is huge. I just think that relying on them as the backbone of your army can be a bad move due to some of their unpredictabilities.

Reecius,

Having played against Frankie's wolfstar this weekend, I definitely see the power of the list. However, What is the reasoning behind not taking a unit of 15 regular fenrisian wolves? It's relatively cheap for the number of ablative wounds you get and ensures that none of the big boys take hits. You can still do all the same wound shenanigans but just get even more wounds. Additionally, you keep each Lord's Fenrisian Wolf wargear alive, so when he breaks off he keeps 2 wolves with him to increase survivability.

Not to mention those wolves can help you string out some silly multi charges, if necessary.

I know the list is tight, but I feel like dropping 2 regular thunderwolves to make the deathstar even more survivable might be worth it.

That's an excellent point, as you get a lot more wounds for a lot less points when you take wolves. Goatboy ran the wolf squad in his list which won the Adepticon Championships last year so it is a totally viable tactic.

The main difference is that the T.Wolves are much more durable. base tough 5 with a 3++ means that 1 valk, hellhound, whirlwind or whatever won't be dropping your numbers in a single shot. Those little wolves are bolter bait and with no save they die really easily. Also, the T.Wolves hit so much harder. The wolves can take down light infantry, but the t.wolves can kill anything they hit.

I think you can make a totally viable unit using either technique, there are pros and cons to each. Probably the best bet is to try both and see what you like more.

Reecius wrote:The main difference is that the T.Wolves are much more durable. base tough 5 with a 3++ means that 1 valk, hellhound, whirlwind or whatever won't be dropping your numbers in a single shot. Those little wolves are bolter bait and with no save they die really easily. Also, the T.Wolves hit so much harder. The wolves can take down light infantry, but the t.wolves can kill anything they hit.

I think you can make a totally viable unit using either technique, there are pros and cons to each. Probably the best bet is to try both and see what you like more.

Speaking as a 'nid player, I'd also warn against allowing those easy-to-kill little wolves giving away combat resolution.

Ah yeah, good point! I totally forgot to mention that. A smart player puts all his attacks on the little wolves and potentially forces a huge leadership modifier. Even with saga of majesty, you could see your wolf squad running away.

Do Fenrisean Wolves upgrade on a TWC Wolf Lord counts toward majority toughness?

Janthkin wrote:

Reecius wrote:The main difference is that the T.Wolves are much more durable. base tough 5 with a 3++ means that 1 valk, hellhound, whirlwind or whatever won't be dropping your numbers in a single shot. Those little wolves are bolter bait and with no save they die really easily. Also, the T.Wolves hit so much harder. The wolves can take down light infantry, but the t.wolves can kill anything they hit.

I think you can make a totally viable unit using either technique, there are pros and cons to each. Probably the best bet is to try both and see what you like more.

Speaking as a 'nid player, I'd also warn against allowing those easy-to-kill little wolves giving away combat resolution.

That's what I tried to do to Frankie's Wolfstar. When I played against him, he had the same wolfstar, except each TWC lord had 2 little pups with them! I think it makes them much, much tougher to kill.

SabrX wrote:Do Fenrisean Wolves upgrade on a TWC Wolf Lord counts toward majority toughness?

In shooting, yeah, you would count majority toughness.

However, in assault, as the TWC lords are IC's, it doesn't matter about majority toughness. You either allocate your attacks on his wolves if you're in base with them or the lord if you're basing him. They are not a retinue unit.

The Wolf player can actually allocate the wounds to his little wolves during assault as they are a unit, I believe. I will have to look it up.

All good points. However, I'd argue that the little wolfs don't typically give away that much res. You are usually breaking off before the first close combat to multi charge. If you're going to fight something that rapes little wolves (like poison hormagaunts), just break them off and charge with the Wolf Lords only.

The little wolves are meant to soak up shooting. Obviously it isn't perfect, but my feeling is you can always revert back to the original unit structure, as the fenrisians are so cheap. It's not a big deal if they go get shot somewhere else.

I'm going to try it out and see how it goes!

Yeah, I think the key there is to go mostly mech shooting with cheaper units and take a hammer assault unit with a chappie to take advantage of preferred enemy and ignore the special rules issues.

The randomness of some of the units is too much for a real top tier tournament list. I was having the same issues.

Janthkin wrote:

Reecius wrote:The main difference is that the T.Wolves are much more durable. base tough 5 with a 3++ means that 1 valk, hellhound, whirlwind or whatever won't be dropping your numbers in a single shot. Those little wolves are bolter bait and with no save they die really easily. Also, the T.Wolves hit so much harder. The wolves can take down light infantry, but the t.wolves can kill anything they hit.

I think you can make a totally viable unit using either technique, there are pros and cons to each. Probably the best bet is to try both and see what you like more.

Speaking as a 'nid player, I'd also warn against allowing those easy-to-kill little wolves giving away combat resolution.

Berzerkers are excellent for this kind work, generally speaking.

Emperor's Champion Accept Any Challenge 1 140
Chaplain Cynobyte x 4 5 135

Troops
Crusader Squad Lazorback 6 170
Crusader Squad Lazorback 6 170

Elites
Terminators TH/SS x 5, L.Claws x 5, F.Assault 10 430
Terminators 2 x Cyclone, Tank Hunters 5 265
Terminators 2 x A.Cannon, Tank Hunters 5 255

Fast Attack
Typhoon 1 70
Typhoon 1 70

Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145
Predator Annihiltator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145

Top tier? Possibly.
But it contains too less troops for my liking.

Yeah, you may be right. However, in book standard missions, you only need more than 2 troops in 1 of the 3 missions.

This is my latest iteration that I think will maximize the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of the new BTs:

Black Templars 2000pts
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Emperor's Champion Accept any Challenge 1 140
Chaplain Cynobytes x 3 4 125

Troops
Crusader Squad Lazorback 6 170
Crusader Squad Lazorback 6 170
Crusader Squad Lazorback 6 170

Elites
Terminators 10 400
Dreadnaught L.Cannon, M.Launcher, Venerable, T.Hunters 1 165

Fast Attack
Typhoon 1 70
Typhoon 1 70
Typhoon 1 70

Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator 1 145
Vindicator PotMS, X-Arm 1 160
Predator Annihilator 1 145

Totals 40 2000


That gives you 6 twin las.cannons, one of which is st10 against vehicles. 4 regular las cannons, a fast Vindie, 7 m.launchers (one of which is str9 against vehicles), 3 h.bolters, 3 mobile scoring units, and a brutal assault unit.

The one downside is that the termiestar is on foot and in DoW can end up spending a lot of time hoofing it up the board. However, every casualty gets you D6" plus an inch for every cynobyte up field, which can really speed you up.

I think the reason why the termiestar will work in this list is because you have so many other threats on the board to draw fire. If your opponent focuses on the termiestar, your guns are tearing him up. If he focuses on your guns, the termiestar is trudging up-field and will be assaulting in short order.

Against another assault army, you have a great counterassault unit.

A fast, shooty army could be problematic.

So, instead of the 10 strong termie squad, you could drop the chappy and take:

6 termies with furious assault (1/2 l.claws and 1/2 hammers) in an LRC.

So you lose a lot of hitting power but you gain a lot of speed. You also have the vulnerability of the LRC, which a single melta can destroy.

I think either iteration will put an ass whipping down on most lists.

Huge firepower, mobile scoring units, and a powerful assault unit.

The key is the points you save on the typhoons and preds (100 points), the army wide preferred enemy, the sniper dread and the "ignore half the damage table" vindie.

I think it gives a good mix of units that allows you to take on nearly any other list from light mech spam, to heavy mech to horde.

Well, technically, you only ever need 1 troop to win those objective games - you can contest with nonscoring units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I feel if you don't take vet skills on your termies you are wasting a huge opportunity. You have the extra slot, just drop a couple of the guys riding in lazorbacks and split the termies out - even if you want them both to be assault termies - mix in a few claws and go with furious assault, or even thunderhammers with tankhunters (th works on assault too, right?)

Yeah, 1 troop would do it. I think you can get by just fine with 2 troops if you play smart, it just doesn't hurt to have more!

You could drop a troops unit for a Las cannon dread and have the points for tank hunters on the termies.

Yeah, tank hunters works in assault. It would make the hammers strength 9 in combat.

That's 30 points on a 10 man squad though. The T.Hammers don't really need it, and the L.Claws won't really benefit from it that often unless they are charging units in the open or if they are coming out of an LRC.

i like the list a lot...I think I would try to squeeze in points to make the Chappy a Master of Sanctity with an Admantium Mantle...I think the LD 10 and the 3 wounds/no instant death would be worth it in combat. Maybe drop a Speeder or two termies. You could also, I guess, give him a teleport homer for those DOW games - stick him in a Razorback, teleport the termies in and have him get out and join them. At the worst they come in where they would have been anyway on turn 2, and of course you don't have to use the homer. Just an idea, probably too risky but I like to live dangerously.

You do indeed live dangerously! Haha.

The ld10 is moot as the chappy makes them fearless. For the points i'd rather have a cynobyte for the extra wound.

The teleport homer is a good idea though. The only downside is if you roll crappy and they don't come in till late, which may be a good reason to take the LRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The admantium mantle does help a lot though for soaking wounds on a 3 wound chappy. That's a lot of points though, just to absorb a few las cannons.

I feel like you pay double for the preferred enemy with the chaplain since your EC grants it. It's pricey for just Fearless, vice LD10 from a Marshall I think.

I agree, which is why I am leaning towards putting them in an LRC. 7 with f.assault 4 claws, 3 hammers and the EC make for a brutal hammer unit that is highly mobile.

Is it really that big a premium? The Reclusiarch is 15 points more than the Marshall (95 vs 80) and comes with a power weapon and a 4+ inv (and one fewer wound).

The marshall gets army-wide LD 10, which is nice but far from necessary in this list. The chappy gives the only squad that matters fearless, and can buy cenobytes if you want them (that +3 move could be great).

Of course, if you're in a land raider, most of this is moot.