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So White925 and Italiaplaya came over to my house to paint and try out the new BTs. We rolled up a book mission and threw some dice!

Mission: Pitched Battle, Annihilation
2,000pts

Black Templars:

Black Templars 2000pts
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Emperor's Champion Accept Any Challenge 1 140
Chaplain Cynobyte x 4 5 135

Troops
Crusader Squad Lazorback 6 170
Crusader Squad Lazorback 6 170

Elites
Terminators TH/SS x 5, L.Claws x 5, F.Assault 10 430
Terminators 2 x Cyclone, Tank Hunters 5 265
Terminators 2 x A.Cannon, Tank Hunters 5 255

Fast Attack
Typhoon 1 70
Typhoon 1 70

Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145

Totals 42 1995


White925's Wolfstar

Lord on T.Wolf: Saga of Majesty, WTT, Runic Armor, Shield, Fist
Lord on T.Wolf: Saga of the Warrior Born, Runic Armor, WTT, Shield, W.Claw
Lord on T.Wolf: WTT, Shield, Fist

T.wolves x 3: Shield x 3, Fist, M.Bomb
T.wolves x 3: Shield x 3, Fist, M.Bomb

Wolf Scouts x 5: M.Bomb, M.Gun
Wolf Scouts x 5: M.Bomb, M.Gun

Grey Hunters x 5: Flamer, Razorback
Grey Hunters x 5: Melta, Razorback

Long Fangs x 6: M.Launchers x 5
Long Fangs x 6: M.Launchers x 5

I won the roll to go first and set up with a hard center of Termies backed up by Preds center board, with Lazorbacks and Typhoons on the flanks. I did this so White925 couldn't multi charge the whole mess with his Wolfstar and take out all my tanks in one go.

He deployed mid-board and used his Wolfstar to screen his Long Fangs and troops.

It was a straight-up fight. I could out shoot him and he had a greater charge range than I did, so I sat tight taking pot shots at his easy kill points and softening up the Wolfstar. His luck was gakky and he failed a bunch of saves on his Wolfstar dropping most of them down to one wound by turn two. One unit of T.Wolves rolled a 6 for their fleet and as my A.cannon termies had to move forward 1" to get into range to shoot them, were assaulted turn one, although my termies with preferred enemy wiped them.

The game came down to my deathstar against his in a giant combat mid-board. He charged me as he had the greater range, but my boys held strong and as he had taken a lot of damage before getting into combat, I managed to wipe him with assistance from the Cyclone termie squad. I lost most of my deathstar but I took him out of the game by defeating his in combat. I was really pleased as I have seen his Wolfstar take a charge form 20 TH/SS termies and kill them all.

This combined with my superior shooting and going first meant I took a KP advantage that WHite925 couldn't overcome. His W.Scouts came in turn 3 and got him some more points but I was able to kill most of them the next turn and even it out as the remnants of my deathstar sling-shot off the big scrum and were able to get back into his lines to tear into his support units.

In the end, the BTs won, 9 to 3. A pretty convincing victory for the new BTs over a really tough SW list that usually dominates most opponents. A lot of that was bad saves on White925's part, but I must say, I am so far impressed with the new BTs.

Thoughts:

On the whole, I think this will be a top tier army, for sure. They can shoot like crazy, assaults really well and have all the tools ineeded to win games against any opponent. The Preds and Typhoons at a 20 point reduction in cost more than offset the 10 point increase in the 5 man Lazorback squads. Add in the fighty/super shooty termie squads and the crazy deathstar assault termies and you have a really powerful combo. I would feel totally confident taking a BT list to a GT and performing very well with it against a wide variety of armies.

The deathstar assault termie unit is brutal. With a Chappy and EC, plus 4 cynobytes, they can absorb a lot of fire before losing any fighting power. Plus, with cynobytes and chappy, they always run where you want them to, and really fast! If anyone shoots at you, they have to be able to do massive damage or all they do is speed your assault towards them. If you face another assault army, they take a charge like champs, too. Definitely a unit that while very expensive, adds a lot.

The shooty termies are brutal. I did fail a "kill them all" test once, but it changed nothing, really. I could see how that would be super annoying and possibly game changing, though. Certainly something to consider.

I want to take the list out against a super shooty mech army and see if they can both trade shots with and engage them in combat. DE could be problematic with their speed and VoF, although this BT list still shoots like the dickens.

In all, a pleasing performance and I am really looking forward to getting some more test games in with them.

That's a zuzzy mat isn't it? Or an old Sabol one? That's really effective.

Shame the rest of the table is completely empty...

It almost isn't fair! They get 5-man tact squads that can take heavy weapons, 5-man terminator squads that can take 2 special weapons, discounted vehicles (some of them, at least), free prefered enemy, the ability to add veteran traits (i.e. tank hunters, furious charge), old wargear such as adamantine mantles and on top of all that, now they get the new goodies as well!

And you know what's very nasty? BT assault squads can all take meltabombs....and storm shields for real cheap!!! Now you have a tank-busting unit that can survive a lot of fire.

Have we seen the future MSU-army? I think we'll be seeing a lot more BT armies at tournaments in the near future.

H.B.M.C. wrote:That's a zuzzy mat isn't it? Or an old Sabol one? That's really effective.

Shame the rest of the table is completely empty...

It's a Sabol mat, I have both of them. They tend to curl if you don't store them flat, but they look ace! They have a big annoying logo down one end, which I hate, but oh well. I do like them a lot. They are soft too, so if a model falls, it will be OK.

The board is a bit empty, isn't it? I have a bunch of LoS blocking terrain and for some reason we didn't use any mid-board. We usually always put a big piece in table center but forgot this time.

@jy2
I totally agree! They are so good. Better than DA, I think as they are more flexible.

Assault Squad storm shields are 15 points though, not 3. They FAQ'd that.

But yeah, this is a top tier army, for sure. They can go shooty heavy, assault heavy, you name it. They are definitely going to be appearing at top tables.

It saddens me that everyone is getting super-excited over the new lease of life the Black Templars are getting.

Within a year their new Codex will arrive and they will become just as regimented, just as flavourless, and as full of Special Characters as everyone else.


This isn't a Renaissance. This is a swan song.

I know. It is like the best of 4th ed with the best of 5th ed with only a few downsides.

The book has all of my favorite stuff from the last edition, it feels like going back in time a bit! Customizable characters that kick as much butt as special characters, options to trick out your squads, etc.

I hope they don't get Chaosified, though! I am happy with the recent books. They are a bit special character dependent, which is good and bad, but Chaos got hit with the bland-stick hard.

Oh I doubt they'll get bland-sticked, you'll just end up with the same insane crazy bs that all the recent Codices have, with random options up the wazoo, random weapons that no one uses, and half a dozen new units that will never get models.

Just like the worst bits of 2nd Ed really.

Talk about full circle.

You can only have a maximum of 3 cenobyte servitors attatched to one Chaplain.

THe mach was pretty awsome but i belive the emperor's champ isnt an hq its something else. Cant remember what.

It counts as an HQ if you want to, but it can also not take a Force Org slot too.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:You can only have a maximum of 3 cenobyte servitors attatched to one Chaplain.

He can get a bonus for a max of 3, it doesn't say he can only take 3, unless I am mistaken. Where are you reading that?

I will take it to YMDC as that is pretty important. I read as he can take 10 (100 points of wargear) but can only get a +3" bonus.

@Eldrad
As Calypso2ts said, he is an HQ but takes up no slot. He does however, count as your required HQ if you want him to. I'm glad you enjoyed the match though, it was good fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@H.B.M.C.

Well, that is certainly possible, although I hope not. I highly doubt though, that they will stay as customizable as they are now.

Also, your army listing for the Crusader Squads is probably wrong - if they really do consist of just 6 plain Initiates with a TL-Lascannon Razorback, the cost should be 186 points, not 170, but based on what you say in your summary, I'm guessing they're both 5-man squads.

I'm really not all that impressed by the Space Wolf army, really... It spends way too many points on Thunderwolves and not enough on support, leaving it largely a gimmick army that relies on getting a charge without being damaged too heavily - as is evidenced by this BatRep. Any army with good target priority, and heavy VoF and/or high AP will ruin their day.

The BT army is a bit better balanced, but is extremely light on troops - in any scoring game, an opponent need only wipe both Crusader squads and the best you can play for is a draw. The FAQ changes do make BT more competitive, but I really don't seem them being "game-changing" as you and others are claiming, especially the "Templar Wing" lists. A good example is yours - its very troop light, and invests virtually the entirety of the army into the Terminator Squads. VoF and High AP shooting will destroy your Terminators, and they don't have that much shooting to make a huge difference - the Cyclones and Assault Cannons can still only target one unit each, and worse only have a 5++ against high AP shooting. The TH/SS Assault Terminators will be fairly solid, but its still 1/3rd (in 1500pts) to 1/4th (2000 pts) of your Army that will absolutely destroy whatever it touches... when it eventually gets there. Despite the FAQ changes, the same weaknesses remain for the Terminator heavy lists.

In all, I thought it was a good game with some decent lists, even if I didn't agree with your conclusion on how much the BT are pushed to the forefront by the FAQ changes.

Well, the Wolf List is very closely based off of the list that won the Adpeticon championships (biggest tournament in the country). And I have personally see it walk through some of the best tournament lists with ease. It isn't perfect but it is very, very good. Most armies lack the tools to stop it before it hits their lines and pwns them. Absolutely top tier, IMO. VoF is what hurts Wolfstar, not low AP. Each guy has a 3++ and is tough5, so las cannons and what not don't do much at all.

Troops light really doesn't mean much to me anymore. In book standard missions, there is only 1 mission in which you need more than two troops. Even then, you are not at a big disadvantage as all you need to do is contest other objectives and this list has a lot of fast movers for that. BT troops are a liability, no need to take more than the minimum. I only take more than two troops if the army has good troops units like Wolves, Orks, Chaos, etc. If you army has weak troops, you play around it. Reserve them, hide them, etc. And in an army with some many other really big threats, most opponents won't focus on your scoring units. I play troops light all the time and it is has not been an issue for me yet.

The Cursader squads are 5 man, yes. I add the transport into the unit size.

I agree that BT lose a lot of steam under 2K. That is why I would only bring them to 1850+ games.

As for only being able to target a few units? I disagree. I can target 8 different units a turn with this list, which is quite a lot. More than many armies. The shooty termies would have cover (although yes, they will be vulnerable to massed low AP shots) and the assault termies have loads of ablative wounds and a 3++ for low ap and 2+ for VoF. Focused fire will hurt them a lot, but they can weather a storm pretty well. Again, I have no doubt in my mind that this, or a variation of this list, is top tier.

As for the new DA and BT being game changing? Sure they are. They bring a new dynamic to the tournament scene. No longer are the Manticores and melta vest gong to cut it. Missile spam hates these lists. It changes things a lot, which is good, IMO.

@Thread
I was wrong, Chappys can only have 3 cynobytes, I missed that in the chappy's unit entry.

I'm not sure which of his lists you're referring to, the one list I found for Goatboy for the 2010 AdeptiCon championship consisted of just three Thunderwolf Wolf Lords, not a total of nine. (List I found: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Thomas-Reidy-1850-Space-Wolves.pdf If someone has a better one, I'd be glad to see it and review to revise my opinion).

Each guy has a 3++ and is tough5, so las cannons and what not don't do much at all.

When you're paying 105pts a pop for a Thunder Wolf and he only has 2 wounds, any hit counts... a 3+ save or even 3++ save is still a 1/3rd chance of failure. In the end you have, what? 21 wounds at 3++ T5? Not that impressive for 50% of your army at 2k points.

As for only being able to target a few units? I disagree. I can target 8 different units a turn with this list, which is quite a lot. More than many armies. The shooty termies would have cover (although yes, they will be vulnerable to massed low AP shots) and the assault termies have loads of ablative wounds and a 3++ for low ap and 2+ for VoF. Focused fire will hurt them a lot, but they can weather a storm pretty well. Again, I have no doubt in my mind that this, or a variation of this list, is top tier.

The number of units you could target was in reference to just the Terminators. - since they're one of the "units of contention" after the FAQ changes. The rest of the list is pure vanilla. Two Typhoons are a threat, but under the current environment of Autocannon/Anti-Mech spam they won't last more than a turn or two and offer up easy kills/KPs... the Predators can last longer, but considering the long-ranged AT firepower they represent will probably eat an enemy army's long range AT first for a quick and easy reduction in your long ranged AT. In the end you have 4 AV11 and 2 AV13 vehicles... not enough high AV saturation to degrade most of the "competitive" armies you'll face at 2000 pts, and once those are gone you haven't any mobility left.

Ultimately I think we can agree to disagree - I'd love to see some BatReps of you running a list like this in a competition, to see how it fares, but I absolutely don't agree it is a top tier army. BTs are definitely way above where they were, but considering where they were pre-FAQ that's not saying an incredible lot. I'd put them at mid, even high-mid, but no better than that.

Yup, we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Typhoons in my experience last all game. I rarely lose more than one (I typically run 3). The rest of the list is pure vanilla? Sure, the best units at a points reduction! There are a number of units that got a huge boost for BT: dreads, typhoons, preds, vindies, termies, etc.

Goatboy's list was the inspiration for White925's list. The Wolves offer more ablative wounds, but the T.Wolves offer more resilience. Don't forget about wound allocation. Most armies are incapable of putting more than 4 ap 2 wounds on a unit like this from a single unit's shooting. That means the lords take the first wounds as they have a 2+. The T.Wolves only soak up the occasional wounds and each model takes one before any are removed. The Wolfstar tends to make it across the board wounded severely, but with all or most models intact. If Wolfstar goes first, you have 1 turn to kill them before they assault, two in Spearhead if you deploy in your back corner. I think you believe it is easier to do than it actually is. I speak from first hand experience too, not just theory.

But anyway, I don't feel the need to defend either list. If you do a search I have tonnes of batreps in here. I have won or placed top 5 in a number of GTs and RTTs with these style lists, but maybe where you live the meta is different. It's highly competitive in this region and even against anti-light mech spam, light mech lists still win! So go figure. It often comes down to a first turn game.

Either way, you are entitle to your opinion, I just strongly disagree with you!

I am going to a GT this weekend, and if I had more time I would bring the BTs. Unfortunately, I won't have them painted in time so I'll be taking wolves again. I will be taking them to competition though, for sure. Mark my words, we'll be seeing them and DW in the tournament rankings!

Reece, are that many storm shields really necessary for the wolf star to work? Will it work with a few less shields?

Yeah, WHite925 has been experimenting with some different builds. Right now he is bringing lots of little wolves to beef it up plus some more cheapo T.Wolves. You can do it with less s.shields, but the bigger it is the more ablative wounds you build around the characters.

First off, nice report. I do think BT are better but for different reasons than you. The change to their poms is the best change. They can now make fast vehicles that shoot. How do you think either of these 2 armies would fair vs the new dark eldar?

I'm a little surprised you aren't putting the troops into pod's. Not only are the bt pods cheaper, but they come with the deathwind launcher, and don't come in on the first turn. That would save you 60 points a squad, enough for a third typhoon or if you can squeeze a few more points somewhere another predator.

@Inquisitor Dunn
Yeah, the new PotMS is pretty awesome, particularly on the Vindie. I like to keep things cheap so I can take more of them in most cases, which is why I opted for the Annihilators. At 145 points, they are a steal.

I was on the same wavelength you were for a while, thinking of going all shooty, but every time I did the math on it, I kept coming to the same conclusion: BTs will not consistently out-shoot either IG or SWs. Particularly not SWs. Therefore, to try and build a shooty list would be unwise as you would be competing against superior armies. Also, you can only take 3 PotMS tanks vs. BAs who can take all of their tanks fast, which is another benefit.

The key to making BTs competitive lies in their HtH ability combined with shooting. A combined arms list, IMO, is going to be the secret sauce.

DE would probably school that list I was using. VoF kills termies and their mobility and long range punch would take out my shooting elements. Then the Venoms could dance away from the deathstar and shoot it to death.

@Warmaster
Pods are OK, I played pods all 4th and still use them now. The problem is, a good player knows how to counter pods pretty easily. The best scoring unit in the BT book, IMO, is the 5 man crusader squad in a Lazorback. It costs only 5 points more than what Vanilla marines pay for it and avoids the set backs of "kill them all." That is a mobile tank hunting platform that is on the board all game as opposed to a pod that comes down randomly and does minimal damage. I prefer consistency in my lists, I rarely use reserve tactics unless I can control them in some way (astropath, autarchs, etc.).

Reecius wrote:

@Warmaster
Pods are OK, I played pods all 4th and still use them now. The problem is, a good player knows how to counter pods pretty easily. The best scoring unit in the BT book, IMO, is the 5 man crusader squad in a Lazorback. It costs only 5 points more than what Vanilla marines pay for it and avoids the set backs of "kill them all." That is a mobile tank hunting platform that is on the board all game as opposed to a pod that comes down randomly and does minimal damage. I prefer consistency in my lists, I rarely use reserve tactics unless I can control them in some way (astropath, autarchs, etc.).

I'm not talking putting everything in pods. You have 2 five man scoring squads in 2 tl-lascannon razorbacks. If you put those 2 5 man squads in drop pods you free up 120pts. So you start with another tank or a couple more land speeders, plus your scoring units are safely off table until later rounds, and have the ability to come in wherever you want, instead of trying to drive there. I just think the razorback is too expensive for the bt army, same with the rhino. The only transport options that I think are worthwhile in the book right now are pods and raiders.

I'm liking the updates for BT.

I'm just a bit wary about bringing mines back out just now in case I get accused of jumping on the bandwagon.

I never thought I'd say that until the next codex.

I do have a 1000pt comp coming up though in February however I think I'll stick to my trusty footdar in it as I'm way more experienced in how they play.

Thanks for the report Reecius. I've been waiting to see how the "NEW" BT do.

I'm liking the Marshall with Terminator Armor and pair of LC's.

6 attacks on the charge at S4, I5 or S5, I6 with FC vet skill. Thrown on an AM and he now has EW.

I like the idea of him and a TDA Chaplain leading 3 LC/2 TH termnators in a LRC.

Of course the army will have the PE vow.

I like cheap for good as well. That is one of the reasons I would not use a lazerback... as they are more expensive than their SM counterparts.

One of my favs:
Marshal, Thunder Hammer and SS- 125pts

Dirt Cheap... at TH for the extra attack for a moderate price.

@Warmaster

That isn't a bad idea at all. The only downside I can see is that they can be a liability in KP missions since they contribute nothing. But, you can always give them a melta or plasma.

@Brother Bartius

Footdar, ftw! Sorry had to do that, but I think people will be happy to see BTs on the table again. They kick serious butt now.

@Fateweaver

The Marshall is great for the blanket ld10, as well. I think in a really competitive list you need to go TH/SS heavy though as so many assault units out there will wreck termies even at In5.

@Iago

Vanilla 5 man squad in a Lazorback=165 points
BT 5 man squad in a Lazorback=170 points

Barely any difference. That squad actually contributes to the game, too. I love my Lazorbacks.

Nice report!

Reecius wrote:
@Iago

Vanilla 5 man squad in a Lazorback=165 points
BT 5 man squad in a Lazorback=170 points

Barely any difference. That squad actually contributes to the game, too. I love my Lazorbacks.

I think the main difference is vanila lazorback has twinlink plasma gun~

I actually prefer the twin las cannon, myself. I know the las/plas is all the rage, but I have found the increased accuracy on the lazorback to be superior. I usually move the model every turn and keep it at long range, and find that I never shoot the plasma. YMMV of course, but when I play against las/plas razorbacks, they always get smoked by my lazorbacks which have increase accuracy. I think the only time the las/plas is a clear choice is for BAs, whose vehicles being fast, can move 6" and fire everything.

The thing to focus on though, IMO, is the fact that you can get a great scoring unit at only 5 points more, but you save 20 points per model on typhoons and preds. That means you can build an equivalent army, cheaper.

Combine that with the fact that you can take amazing terminator squads and a sniper dread on the cheap (venerable tank hunter) and excellent assault ability and you have a top tier army.

I'm finding though playing DEldar that TH/SS Terminators don't last any longer than their non-SS counterparts.

I'm torn between 3x5 Terminators or shaving 120pts and taking 2x5 Terminators and a Ven. TL Las and ML Dreadnaught and using the points shaved to get more Speeders.

I am thinking the same thing. DE are the bane of termies. They just dump dice on you.

The Ven Dread is awesome. Twin linked strength 10 and a strength 9 shot on a tough platform is great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think relying so much on the termies is a good idea. The cheap preds and typhoons are where it's at. Those termie squads are awesome, but a single flubbed "kill them all" role and you can lose a game.

The thing that is killing me with my black templars is the fact that you have to take a leadership test if you suffer a single wound. I have had mine bail too often for me to get over that easily. Yeah I know you can go mech, take a chappie for one unit and the marshal is mandatory with rites of battle, but still...