Tyranid weaknesses

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Miraclefish**

Flamers will become bad dreams. Heavy flamers... nightmares. Trukks full of Burna Boyz will leave you waking up at night screaming...

**SumYungGui**

Feel No Pain and proper table top placement is my response to a Trukk full of burna boys. It's not exactly common to find AP 1 flamers and a heavy flamer is only Str 5 so no instakill on gaunts/gants so at least you get some kind of save.

If a flamer template can hit more than 4-ish models I consider myself to have failed in movement. You get two inches between models. Use them all.

**Ail-Shan**

Sum I think his point is what would happen were denying an armor save to deny FNP as well. It's a hypothetical.

**Doomthumbs**

kirsanth wrote:FNP is not negated by ap3 that is not double the toughness.

I just meant that unless it's a Tyrannofex or armored Tyrant, it's not getting a FNP from an AP3 weapon if it's a Tyranid. Thats why I'm not so crazy about tervigons. Not much that they can really give FNP to effectively. Most of my armor saves are a 5+ anyway, and guess what the majority of fire in the 40k universe is? Thats right, AP5 bolter rounds! No FNP really ever for missiles. Super fun for us, but you knew that.

**Niiai**

Doomthumbs don't be like that. I know you like to powergame and that you love to interpit rules as manyw ays as possible but now you are just confusing the new players. The plaguebearer example (in a codex that was after 5th edition) clearly shows that it has to have the words "ap 1", "ap 2" or "ignores armour saves". It is not enough to just aim a bolter at genestealers because the bolter has AP 5 and therefore ignores the genstealers armour save. I used to play it like that in the start but here you are just being the internett troll.

If people in your aria play it like that then show them the plaguebearer example. If you do play that trevigons get no feel no pain roll from a krak missile, well, enjoy your games but that is not how they do it at the GW turnaments.

Now stop confusing the jungens. :-)

**Raxmei**

Doomthumbs wrote:
kirsanth wrote:FNP is not negated by ap3 that is not double the toughness.

I just meant that unless it's a Tyrannofex or armored Tyrant, it's not getting a FNP from an AP3 weapon if it's a Tyranid. Thats why I'm not so crazy about tervigons. Not much that they can really give FNP to effectively. Most of my armor saves are a 5+ anyway, and guess what the majority of fire in the 40k universe is? Thats right, AP5 bolter rounds! No FNP really ever for missiles. Super fun for us, but you knew that.

I say again, you have misread the rules for FNP. FNP is denied by wounds against which no armor save can ever be taken. It is not negated simply when that particular model does not get an armor save, it is negated when no armor save would ever be possible at all. 2+ armor saves can be taken agaisnt ap3 weapons, so it is not the case that no armor save can ever be taken against ap3, so FNP can be taken against ap3. Whether the model in question actually gets an armor save or not is irrelevant.

**Mysticaria**

Yeah, anything that is T5 can get FNP against a krak missile. The only reason krak missile would ignore FNP is because it can instakill T4 and below. The AP 3 of the krak missile has nothing to do with FNP at all. Tyranid Primes, Hive Guard, Tyrant Guard, Tyrants, Tervigons, Tyranofex, Trygon, Mawloc... all can get FNP against krak missiles.

-Myst

**Mattlov**

sennacherib wrote:Yeah... but pyrovores suck.
having to rely on them dying as an advantage says a lot about their awsomeness.

Not really. My group HATES my pyrovores. They can be very devastating, you just have to use them as a high-risk high-reward unit. I drop 2 in a spore pod right next to a unit, and you have to drop them right next to someone.

Most units get fried by a pair of pyrovores hitting them, with the exception being the high armor guys like Marines.

Will they die on your opponent's turn? Probably. But that is fire that isn't going at other units as well. Plus you have the Spore Pod right there as well to block LOS and still do some damage.

But as others have said, a lack of defensive grenades and no Invulnerable saves are the biggest weaknesses. Invulnerables probably the biggest problem.

**Doomthumbs**

Niiai wrote:Doomthumbs don't be like that...The plaguebearer example ... here you are just being the internett troll.

Raxmei wrote:I say again, you have misread the rules for FNP.

You guys didn't read my post very well, but I can see that your command of English is limited, so I will break it down into smaller bite sized chunks for you.
Yes, FNP can be taken for AP3 stuff, as long as you have a 2+ armor save, which again, only the Armor Tyrant and Tyranofex have.

I'm not saying that AP3 denies FNP. I'm saying AP3 Denies FNP to TYRANIDS that are not a Armor Tyrant or a Tyrannofex.

AP5 bolters firing on Genestealers with a 5+ armor save and FNP from a Tervigons Catalyst. FNP denied. No armor save can be taken, no FNP can be made.

No Tyranid except the Armor Tyrant or Tyrannofex can make a FNP save against a AP3 wound.

There, I've laid it all out for you in easy to digest, repetitive clear statements. I've even provided quotes, and I believe that through sarcasm, I have maintained both an objective handle on the situation, and a repressed urge to vomit calcified hate and bitter anger. I'm not tying to suggest anything crazy here. Its all pretty basic stuff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiai wrote:Doomthumbs don't be like that...The plaguebearer example ... here you are just being the internett troll.

Raxmei wrote:I say again, you have misread the rules for FNP.

You guys didn't read my post very well, but I can see that your command of English is limited, so I will break it down into smaller bite sized chunks for you.
Yes, FNP can be taken for AP3 stuff, as long as you have a 2+ armor save, which again, only the Armor Tyrant and Tyranofex have.

I'm not saying that AP3 denies FNP. I'm saying AP3 Denies FNP to TYRANIDS that are not a Armor Tyrant or a Tyrannofex.

AP5 bolters firing on Genestealers with a 5+ armor save and FNP from a Tervigons Catalyst. FNP denied. No armor save can be taken, no FNP can be made.

No Tyranid except the Armor Tyrant or Tyrannofex can make a FNP save against a AP3 wound.

There, I've laid it all out for you in easy to digest, repetitive clear statements. I've even provided quotes, and I believe that through sarcasm, I have maintained both an objective handle on the situation, and a repressed urge to vomit calcified hate and bitter anger. I'm not tying to suggest anything crazy here. Its all pretty basic stuff.

**Tri**

Doomthumbs wrote:
Niiai wrote:Doomthumbs don't be like that...The plaguebearer example ... here you are just being the internett troll.

Raxmei wrote:I say again, you have misread the rules for FNP.

You guys didn't read my post very well, but I can see that your command of English is limited, so I will break it down into smaller bite sized chunks for you.
Yes, FNP can be taken for AP3 stuff, as long as you have a 2+ armor save, which again, only the Armor Tyrant and Tyranofex have.

I'm not saying that AP3 denies FNP. I'm saying AP3 Denies FNP to TYRANIDS that are not a Armor Tyrant or a Tyrannofex.

AP5 bolters firing on Genestealers with a 5+ armor save and FNP from a Tervigons Catalyst. FNP denied. No armor save can be taken, no FNP can be made.

No Tyranid except the Armor Tyrant or Tyrannofex can make a FNP save against a AP3 wound.

There, I've laid it all out for you in easy to digest, repetitive clear statements. I've even provided quotes, and I believe that through sarcasm, I have maintained both an objective handle on the situation, and a repressed urge to vomit calcified hate and bitter anger. I'm not tying to suggest anything crazy here. Its all pretty basic stuff.

FNP cannot happens when you are hurt by weapon that never gives an armour save (AP1-2 or power weapon) or a weapon that cause instant death.

if the weapon isn't Ap1-2 (/power weapon) and doesn't cause instant death then you can take FNP

AP 3 does sometimes give save so you may take FNP even if the model would not have a save

**gothmog**

Doomthumbs wrote:
Niiai wrote:Doomthumbs don't be like that...The plaguebearer example ... here you are just being the internett troll.

Raxmei wrote:I say again, you have misread the rules for FNP.

You guys didn't read my post very well, but I can see that your command of English is limited, so I will break it down into smaller bite sized chunks for you.
Yes, FNP can be taken for AP3 stuff, as long as you have a 2+ armor save, which again, only the Armor Tyrant and Tyranofex have.

I'm not saying that AP3 denies FNP. I'm saying AP3 Denies FNP to TYRANIDS that are not a Armor Tyrant or a Tyrannofex.

AP5 bolters firing on Genestealers with a 5+ armor save and FNP from a Tervigons Catalyst. FNP denied. No armor save can be taken, no FNP can be made.

No Tyranid except the Armor Tyrant or Tyrannofex can make a FNP save against a AP3 wound.

There, I've laid it all out for you in easy to digest, repetitive clear statements. I've even provided quotes, and I believe that through sarcasm, I have maintained both an objective handle on the situation, and a repressed urge to vomit calcified hate and bitter anger. I'm not tying to suggest anything crazy here. Its all pretty basic stuff.

Doomthumbs, you really couldn't be more wrong about FNP. Regardless of the target's armor save or lack therof, if it has FNP it can use it when wounded by weapons that are AP3 or higher. Only AP1, AP2 and power weapons deny FNP. ID has nothing to do with it. The target's armor has nothing to do with it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiai wrote:Doomthumbs don't be like that...The plaguebearer example ... here you are just being the internett troll.

Raxmei wrote:I say again, you have misread the rules for FNP.

You guys didn't read my post very well, but I can see that your command of English is limited, so I will break it down into smaller bite sized chunks for you.
Yes, FNP can be taken for AP3 stuff, as long as you have a 2+ armor save, which again, only the Armor Tyrant and Tyranofex have.

I'm not saying that AP3 denies FNP. I'm saying AP3 Denies FNP to TYRANIDS that are not a Armor Tyrant or a Tyrannofex.

AP5 bolters firing on Genestealers with a 5+ armor save and FNP from a Tervigons Catalyst. FNP denied. No armor save can be taken, no FNP can be made.

No Tyranid except the Armor Tyrant or Tyrannofex can make a FNP save against a AP3 wound.

There, I've laid it all out for you in easy to digest, repetitive clear statements. I've even provided quotes, and I believe that through sarcasm, I have maintained both an objective handle on the situation, and a repressed urge to vomit calcified hate and bitter anger. I'm not tying to suggest anything crazy here. Its all pretty basic stuff.

**kirsanth**

Anything can use FNP vs an ap3 or worse (non-power)weapon that does not cause ID.

**Raxmei**

Doomthumbs wrote:
Niiai wrote:Doomthumbs don't be like that...The plaguebearer example ... here you are just being the internett troll.

Raxmei wrote:I say again, you have misread the rules for FNP.

You guys didn't read my post very well, but I can see that your command of English is limited, so I will break it down into smaller bite sized chunks for you.
Yes, FNP can be taken for AP3 stuff, as long as you have a 2+ armor save, which again, only the Armor Tyrant and Tyranofex have.

I'm not saying that AP3 denies FNP. I'm saying AP3 Denies FNP to TYRANIDS that are not a Armor Tyrant or a Tyrannofex.

AP5 bolters firing on Genestealers with a 5+ armor save and FNP from a Tervigons Catalyst. FNP denied. No armor save can be taken, no FNP can be made.

No. Seriously, this is not how FNP works. It does not matter if that specific model doesn't get an armor save against that attack. FNP is denied by attacks against which no armor save can ever be taken. This is not the case for Ap3. It does not matter if a shooting attack's ap nullifies any particular model's armor save. For purposes of FNP what matters is whether no armor save can ever be taken.

edit:If you feel like quoting the relevent rules to support your position, which you have not, feel free. I have made repeated use of the the phrase "against which no armor save can ever be taken" for a reason.

**gothmog**

Doomthumbs, you couldn't be more wrong about FNP. Regardless of the target's armor save, it can use FNP against any wounds (regardless of weapon strength vs target toughnes) unless the wound is from an AP2, AP1 or a power weapon. That's all there is to it. End of story.

**Doomthumbs**

"Ever be taken"

When, EVER, can a Genestealer with a 5+ armor save TAKE an armor save against an AP5 weapon?

Come on. I'm the guy that tries to say Monstrous Creatures get to fire in the Opponent's shooting phase because of the wording on pg 51 BRB. I see what you're saying, but I think you're wrong, and no one has actually provided a solid reason based in a GW ruling.

Around here, we play it that if the model is denied a armor save, it is denied FNP. Maybe we're just more honest or something.

**Tri**

Doomthumbs wrote:"Ever be taken"

When, EVER, can a Genestealer with a 5+ armor save TAKE an armor save against an AP5 weapon?

Yes but the weapon does not always ignore armour saves. Only AP1-2 ignores all armour saves.

This is most likely because the same model can be equipped differently and could get a save if differently equiped ... A IG's man may not be able to take a save against a bolter with flack armour but the same model with carapace armour can.

If you read the actual rule it goes ... unless the wound is from causes instant death, AP1 and AP2 or a wounds from which saves can never be taken (powerfist, DCCW, rending 6's, PotW, failed DT)

**Raxmei**

You are applying that unnecessarily narrowly to specific models. That's the whole point I've been getting at. FNP is not negated by wounds that the target can't ever take an armor save against, it is denied by wounds that nobody can ever take an armor save against. That is the point of the plaguebearer example, for it is a unit with FNP that can't ever take an armor save against anything.

**Doomthumbs**

I'm familiar with the rule's text, thank you.
The only two Tyranid models that can take a FNP save against an AP3 weapon are:
A Hive Tyrant with Armored Shell
A Tyrannofex.

Just in case you missed it last time, that IS pretty narrowly specific.

**Mysticaria**

Doomthumbs wrote:I'm familiar with the rule's text, thank you.
The only two Tyranid models that can take a FNP save against an AP3 weapon are:
A Hive Tyrant with Armored Shell
A Tyrannofex.

Just in case you missed it last time, that IS pretty narrowly specific.

wrong. Sorry.

-Myst

**Tri**

Doomthumbs wrote:I'm familiar with the rule's text, thank you.
The only two Tyranid models that can take a FNP save against an AP3 weapon are:
A Hive Tyrant with Armored Shell
A Tyrannofex.

Just in case you missed it last time, that IS pretty narrowly specific.

... you're wrong because you can take a save against AP3 ... that model can't but its not never.

**MinMax**

Doomthumbs wrote:Around here, we play it that if the model is denied a armor save, it is denied FNP. Maybe we're just more honest or something.

If we assume you're right for a second, this raises a question - why did they bother to specify AP 1 and 2 weapons, as denying FNP?

**Mysticaria**

MinMax wrote:
Doomthumbs wrote:Around here, we play it that if the model is denied a armor save, it is denied FNP. Maybe we're just more honest or something.

If we assume you're right for a second, this raises a question - why did they bother to specify AP 1 and 2 weapons, as denying FNP?

Yeah, that gaming group is applying a made up house rule. AP3 does not affect FNP in any way. Only the S8 of the krak missile is relevant when determining FNP. That is where some of the confusion comes in from that specific weapon. It denies FNP to Warriors... and people take that to mean that AP3 causes it to ignore FNP. It doesn't. Again...

AP3 has absolutely no influence on FNP.

Tyranid Prime, Hive Guard, Tyrant Guard, Tyrant, Carnifex, Tyranofex, Mawloc, Trygon can all take FNP saves against krak missiles because they are T>4.

-Myst

**SumYungGui**

Go ahead and ask the question over in YMDC. I'll bet you a cookie I know what the answer will be.

(hint: they get FNP)

**Kilkrazy**

I agree with Kirsinth, and disagree with Doomthumbs, about the FNP vs S rule, however, that is all off topic and should be taken to the YMDC forum for a resolution.

**Doomthumbs**

Tri wrote:You're wrong because you can take a save against AP3 ... that model can't but its not never.

Because the model cannot make an armor save, it cannot attempt FNP. You are basing your argument on "Well some models can, so its not never, technically, maybe, don't hit me".
Just because a TH/SS terminator would get to make both a 2+ armor save, and then a 4+ FNP save against a AP3 weapon does not mean that a 3+ armor save Tyranid would get to make either an armor save or a FNP save.

MinMax wrote:
If we assume you're right for a second, this raises a question - why did they bother to specify AP 1 and 2 weapons, as denying FNP?

Terminators.

I just think that no 3+ armor save could ever be taken against a AP3 weapon. Armor save denied. FNP? Well, did you make an armor save first?

**Mysticaria**

Think you need to go get some clarification in YMDC. It seems like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the rule.

-Myst

**Doomthumbs**

"If the model suffers an unsaved wound"

So by the text of the rule that triggers FNP, you have to have attempted a save.

You just have a great day now.

**Mysticaria**

Does is say "model attempted a save and failed" or does it say "model suffers and unsaved wound"? You don't have to attempt a save to end up with an unsaved wound.

Again... fundamental misunderstanding of the rules. Go get some clarification.

-Myst

**Griever**

Doomthumbs wrote:"If the model suffers an unsaved wound"

So by the text of the rule that triggers FNP, you have to have attempted a save.

You just have a great day now.

How many people have to disagree with you on this before you realize you're wrong?

Good luck trying that in a tournament.

**th3eviltwin**

ignoring doomthumbs i would like to get back on topic do the nids have any hard counters? any units that you have kill first if they hit the board?