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"If the model suffers an unsaved wound"

So by the text of the rule that triggers FNP, you have to have attempted a save.

You just have a great day now.

No. If the model suffers a wound, a fails to save it. The game doesn't care how you failed to save the wound, but it is a wound that you did not save, hence an unsaved wound.

Also, notice that all specifications are weapons that ignore all armor saves in the game. I would expect something such as an AP5 weapon shooting at a model with 5+ armor would be pointed out as it is comparatively complex.

And again we have the plaguebearer example. Why should they have FNP if they have no armor save, and so every weapon ignores their armor since they never can take an armor save against it?

In addition, that would also mean Dark Eldar's Power From Pain rule is near useless for the first pain token since their armor is 5 and 6+ anyway, so virtually everything ignores their armor as well.



We'll make a simple question (don't change anything with it. Don't qualify it, don't adapt it, just answer it yes or no).

Can you take an armor save from a bolter (is there any model in the game that can take a save from a bolter)?


OT:

Hard counters....I'd worry about massed heavy weapons. Long Fangs are particularly nasty since you can, with wolf guard, get around 20 missile shots a turn at 1850ish points, along with some good combat ability. I can't think of much else. The heavy weapons are a pain because they shut down MCs so easily, yet are difficult to counter. If they are infantry and you care to spare the HS slot Biovores are actually pretty good, especially since they are pinning, so can be used in tandem with assault squads as well.

I seriously don't know why you guys are still trying to argue with him. His unwillingness to take it to YMDC should prove to you that either he's ignorantly and stubbornly holding on to it to try to be right in the face of all evidence to the contrary(and doesn't want to be proven wrong by those who know how to read rules correctly) or he's trolling, pure and simple.

Back on topic,

Not that I play tyranids, but my friend does, so I know a bit.

Tyranids generally don't have assault grenades, and don't have super reliable AV14 killing (other than zoeys suicide podding)
If they did though, they would be the most broken army probably, as there is a reason for both of that.

As people mentioned, after assaulting a unit you're left basically in the open. My friend loves to consolidate into nearby area terrain, which generally mitigates that.

Ah and as people mentioned, keep your large MC's away from power fists. That's what gaunts are for.
All around I think tyranids is a good army, kind of hard to get the hang of playing though, simply because their movement is reliant on jumping from cover to cover.

Griever wrote:

Doomthumbs wrote:"If the model suffers an unsaved wound"

So by the text of the rule that triggers FNP, you have to have attempted a save.

You just have a great day now.

How many people have to disagree with you on this before you realize you're wrong?

Good luck trying that in a tournament.

From where he stands Doomthumbs is not wrong. It apears eather that is how they do it at the local gaming shop, witch is different then how the rest of the world does it. Or you know, he gets to spank his monkey on these troll posts. (His actualy monkey, not you know, some non furry 4 armed monkey.) With that being settled that dakka disagree with Doomthumbs and he gets his kicks out of it can we please go back to the subject of the thread: "Tyranid weaknesses."

With the lak of assault grenades in your codex you have a trouble charging into a transport that has been blown up. Usualy, more boddies is the awser to this. I am also speculating of spore mine launchers would be good. Do anybody have any experience with these units?

Cheers from Norway.

general advice never take toxic sac on anything with more than strength 4

Yeah Tri, that's good general advice
on hormogaunts they rock, and if you want adrenal glands too that's 3 attacks per model that re roll 1's to hit, have 4+ poison, and reroll to wound against t4 or less
Pretty scary
Those are one of the units I keep my demon prince away from in assault.

Tri wrote:general advice never take toxic sac on anything with more strength 4

What happens when your S6 Trygon gets hit with a T8 Wraithlord? Just wondering, cause otherwise, I agree.

Tyranids generally don't have assault grenades, and don't have super reliable AV14 killing (other than zoeys suicide podding)

Actually I've been seeing potential in walking zoanthropes. They provide synapse and their range isn't that bad, especially if you give them onslaught. They aren't that reliable though (50%ish chance to kill a land raider was it? good compared with other units, but 3 attacks has more potential to fail than 6). Adrenal trygons are supposed to work well against land raiders as well (the dual scytalons really helps).

What happens when your S6 Trygon gets hit with a T8 Wraithlord? Just wondering, cause otherwise, I agree.

Arguably that's what toxin gaunts are for. Tyranids are fast enough that they should be able to avoid a wraithlord (or 3) and toxigaunts can rip them down.

Also toxin sacs pair really well with adrenal glands if you want to buy both to make super gaunts (I'd argue this is too expensive though), but you can also use the swarmlord's USR dishing out ability to give them furious charge for the same effect. Add in paroxysm and you're probably killing a squad with that. You almost re-roll everything.

Wraithlords are situational at best. That is one model that you would really have problems with. You should be able to use smaller bugs to deal with the situation.

The one exception to the rule is the Tervigon, due to the fact that it grants the sacks to nearby gants.

Platuan4th wrote:

Tri wrote:general advice never take toxic sac on anything with more strength 4

What happens when your S6 Trygon gets hit with a T8 Wraithlord? Just wondering, cause otherwise, I agree.

... then it your fault for being too close to a model you should have charged with termagant (with toxic sacs) ...
What happens when you charge a T3 model and rather then wounding on 2+ you're wounding on 4+ (ok with a reroll but still)

Griever wrote:

Doomthumbs wrote:"If the model suffers an unsaved wound"

So by the text of the rule that triggers FNP, you have to have attempted a save.

You just have a great day now.

How many people have to disagree with you on this before you realize you're wrong?

Good luck trying that in a tournament.

He's trolling again, he's not bothered about facts

Whenever I see my friend field her nidz, the first thing she always goes for is either- Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer, or my LRMBTs and Manticore.

In short large templates, or mass groups of templates (TFC REALLY does a number on nids)

On the subject of large blasts, massed infantry units and monstrous creatures are the best possible targets for large blast weapons. You can scatter up to 3" and still hit anything bigger than a 25mm base. That gives BS3 IG ordnance a 60% chance of hitting you. If it's a Tervigon then chances are the creature is surrounded by consolation prizes if the ordnance does scatter off target. On the other hand it's hard to get a really high volume of fire from ordnance so in a classic shooty IG army I'd expect simple heavy weapons to be the larger overall threat.

Tri wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Tri wrote:general advice never take toxic sac on anything with more strength 4

What happens when your S6 Trygon gets hit with a T8 Wraithlord? Just wondering, cause otherwise, I agree.

... then it your fault for being too close to a model you should have charged with termagant (with toxic sacs) ...
What happens when you charge a T3 model and rather then wounding on 2+ you're wounding on 4+ (ok with a reroll but still)

(A) You don't need to charge T3 models with a Trygon.
(B) The Trygon gets rerolls on To Hit rolls, thanks to double Scything Talons.
(C) It also gets rerolls on failed To Wound rolls, thanks to S equal to or greater than target T.

I would be surprised if you failed to deal much scathe to the enemy unit, despite losing the benefit of S6 vs T3.

That said, I would probably spend the points on Adrenal Glands for a Trygon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Raxmei wrote:On the subject of large blasts, massed infantry units and monstrous creatures are the best possible targets for large blast weapons. You can scatter up to 3" and still hit anything bigger than a 25mm base. That gives BS3 IG ordnance a 60% chance of hitting you. If it's a Tervigon then chances are the creature is surrounded by consolation prizes if the ordnance does scatter off target. On the other hand it's hard to get a really high volume of fire from ordnance so in a classic shooty IG army I'd expect simple heavy weapons to be the larger overall threat.

Yes, I would agree, based on my experience.

I would almost say that the Manticore or Leman Russ Executioner would be some of the biggest threats. While the Manticore is only AP4, it's S10 so it'll deny FNP on anything below T5. More importantly, d3 templates gives it some of the volume of fire ability of heavy weapons teams, so it seems to be a big threat.

An executioner, especially with plasma cannons would also be a big threat. At AP2 it's flat out denying FNP and armor to ANYTHING, and S7 means your wounding on a 3+ for even the T6 monstrous creatures, and the 5 plasma templates mean you get that volume of fire being discussed. So if you're fighting IG and see one of those in the enemy army? Blow them up as quick as you can.....I'd say those are probably one of the more dangerous units you'd face playing as 'Nids.

Tri wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Tri wrote:general advice never take toxic sac on anything with more strength 4

What happens when your S6 Trygon gets hit with a T8 Wraithlord? Just wondering, cause otherwise, I agree.

... then it your fault for being too close to a model you should have charged with termagant (with toxic sacs) ...
What happens when you charge a T3 model and rather then wounding on 2+ you're wounding on 4+ (ok with a reroll but still)

if you toxic sacs you only wound on 4+ not that the role can be no more that 4+?

The lack of assault grenades in an assault codex is pretty much crap and as soon as your opponents get wise to it you're going to start having massive headaches dealing with anything out there. You have to assault as Tyranids. There's no way around it. Your opponent will have you at initiative one as much as possible and it will hurt but hey, we're not SPESS MUHREENS so the idea of play testing and ironing out wrinkles like that is pretty much moon language to GW.

Vehicles will be another problem you come across a lot. Again it's an assault army. There does exist in the codex armor destroying shooting but not nearly enough, at adequate ranges in competitive quantities. You are going to end up relying on, again, assaults to take out vehicles. So enjoy watching your guys get obliterated the next turn as they all stand around after taking out vehicles then give the guys that were inside the silent treatment and refuse to have anything to do with them.

Lots of stone-cold blatantly broken rules that are just inexcusably obvious proof of complete lack of play testing for the codex. These were followed by FAQs answering questions nobody was frequently asking and crippling parts of the army for absolutely no discernible reason.

Also I hope you're good at modeling conversions. The Blood Angels that came out seven months after Tyranids apparently needed a second wave of models before the codex who literally has nothing official for 1/3 of the entire book.

Weakness? Nids don't have any of those! :
Okie back to topic.

- No invul save for M.C
Among all the models, only Zoeys, Swarmlord and Doom have
invul save. With every M.C has only 3+ armor save, any AP3
weapon can really ruin your day.

- Lack of assault Grenade.
If your opponent likes to take cover while camping and
shooting, your are dead.

- Lack of long range anti-armor firepower.
Nuff' said.

- Synapse.
As many have posted, Synapse grants Fearless universal rule
and it's handy during shooting phase (so you don't have to
take pinning and morale test), but in assault phase, it can be
quite a nightmare to lose many troops (especially those gaunts
with 6+ save...)

- LACK OF OFFICIAL MODEL!

As many have posted, Synapse grants Fearless universal rule
and it's handy during shooting phase (so you don't have to
take pinning and morale test), but in assault phase, it can be
quite a nightmare to lose many troops (especially those gaunts
with 6+ save...)

This isn't exactly true though, and I'll illustrate it with an example:

Let's say 10 gaunts charge a long fang squad. Swings go around, and we'll say 2 long fangs die, and 5 gaunts die. Now if you are in synapse, the long fangs will be tied up in their shooting phase. You'll probably be down to 1 gaunt, and you will lose the fight, but those long fangs aren't shooting for a turn. If you aren't in synapse, you take a test at ld 3, probably fail, and now run away as 5 gaunts. The second version you are left with more gaunts, but they aren't helping you as the long fangs now can shoot you. Just because it has a draw back doesn't mean it is terrible.

On it's own the fearless wounds thing isn't too bad. Assaults are supposed to be quick and brutal with fearless wounds taking down one side or morale breaking on the other (unless you're SPESS MUHREENS and have And We Shall Know No Inconvenience From Psychology). That part I'm ok with (except the SPESS MURHEENS. Seriously, that's crap). Where fearless takes a turn for Suckville via slowed Lane is multiple assaults. It is complete crap and a game balance destroying oversight that someone is encouraged to plow every single last attack they have into your gribbly little Termagants so they can win assault by the number of inconsequential-to-tyranids wounds on bubble wrap models, and then force the Hive Tyrant standing next door that nobody even took a swing at to take armor saves until he dies for free.

Add "lack of transport" to Mr Gold's list.

The tervigon comes debatably close, the spod does not.

SumYungGui wrote:On it's own the fearless wounds thing isn't too bad. Assaults are supposed to be quick and brutal with fearless wounds taking down one side or morale breaking on the other (unless you're SPESS MUHREENS and have And We Shall Know No Inconvenience From Psychology). That part I'm ok with (except the SPESS MURHEENS. Seriously, that's crap). Where fearless takes a turn for Suckville via slowed Lane is multiple assaults. It is complete crap and a game balance destroying oversight that someone is encouraged to plow every single last attack they have into your gribbly little Termagants so they can win assault by the number of inconsequential-to-tyranids wounds on bubble wrap models, and then force the Hive Tyrant standing next door that nobody even took a swing at to take armor saves until he dies for free.

Yes, this. Because the Tyranids are primarily a melee army and can't afford to spend too many turns being clever and selective about which units attack which enemies in HTH.

Doomthumbs wrote:

MinMax wrote:If we assume you're right for a second, this raises a question - why did they bother to specify AP 1 and 2 weapons, as denying FNP?

Terminators.

I just think that no 3+ armor save could ever be taken against a AP3 weapon. Armor save denied. FNP? Well, did you make an armor save first?

Err...

No, you've sort of missed the point I was trying to make. A model with a 2+ save has its save denied by AP 1, and AP 2, weapons. Your interpretation is that this sufficient to deny Feel no Pain. So -why-, then did they specify that AP 1 and AP 2 weapons deny Feel no Pain?

You're saying that if the AP was sufficient to deny its armour save, that is also enough to deny FNP. So why specifically call out AP 1 and AP 2 weapons?

...Unless, you're wrong.

SumYungGui wrote:On it's own the fearless wounds thing isn't too bad. Assaults are supposed to be quick and brutal with fearless wounds taking down one side or morale breaking on the other (unless you're SPESS MUHREENS and have And We Shall Know No Inconvenience From Psychology). That part I'm ok with (except the SPESS MURHEENS. Seriously, that's crap). Where fearless takes a turn for Suckville via slowed Lane is multiple assaults. It is complete crap and a game balance destroying oversight that someone is encouraged to plow every single last attack they have into your gribbly little Termagants so they can win assault by the number of inconsequential-to-tyranids wounds on bubble wrap models, and then force the Hive Tyrant standing next door that nobody even took a swing at to take armor saves until he dies for free.

This is the biggest killer of the Tyranid codex.

-Myst

MinMax wrote:

Doomthumbs wrote:

MinMax wrote:If we assume you're right for a second, this raises a question - why did they bother to specify AP 1 and 2 weapons, as denying FNP?

Terminators.

I just think that no 3+ armor save could ever be taken against a AP3 weapon. Armor save denied. FNP? Well, did you make an armor save first?

Err...

No, you've sort of missed the point I was trying to make. A model with a 2+ save has its save denied by AP 1, and AP 2, weapons. Your interpretation is that this sufficient to deny Feel no Pain. So -why-, then did they specify that AP 1 and AP 2 weapons deny Feel no Pain?

You're saying that if the AP was sufficient to deny its armour save, that is also enough to deny FNP. So why specifically call out AP 1 and AP 2 weapons?

...Unless, you're wrong.

Can we please just go back to ignoring doomthumbs or talking to him on his own special little thread? It's derailing the discussion.

About the lack of long range AT, arn't that what you use Mawlocs for? I confess that I've yet to play my tyranids in a game or even faced them, but to me, it seems to be one of the most sure fire ways you have to take out long range weapons. Unless you're playing Dawn of War, you can just burrow it turn one, then pop up turn 2 smack in the middle of enemy havocs, basilisks, long fangs and what not, wounding on +2 against most things and glancing on 4's against almost everything. Best thing is that you don't need line of sight and it has unlimited range.
Only obvious weekness I can see is that they're wide open for shooting/assulting the turn they arrive. Still, they have T6,W6 and Sv3, should beable to take some punishment, and that's perhaps 2-3 units that arn't shooting at your other bugs. And if it so happens to survive the opponents assualt phase, try a hit and run and repeat the same thing next turn! Althought, at 170 points it might be a tad on the expensive side?

Limbo wrote:About the lack of long range AT, arn't that what you use Mawlocs for? I confess that I've yet to play my tyranids in a game or even faced them, but to me, it seems to be one of the most sure fire ways you have to take out long range weapons. Unless you're playing Dawn of War, you can just burrow it turn one, then pop up turn 2 smack in the middle of enemy havocs, basilisks, long fangs and what not, wounding on +2 against most things and glancing on 4's against almost everything. Best thing is that you don't need line of sight and it has unlimited range.
Only obvious weekness I can see is that they're wide open for shooting/assulting the turn they arrive. Still, they have T6,W6 and Sv3, should beable to take some punishment, and that's perhaps 2-3 units that arn't shooting at your other bugs. And if it so happens to survive the opponents assualt phase, try a hit and run and repeat the same thing next turn! Althought, at 170 points it might be a tad on the expensive side?

In theory, it's possible. In reality you're only going to find Havocs, Basilisks and to a certain extent things like long fangs and the like parked as far as they can possibly be from anything and shelling them with artillery. Usually a table corner. Deep striking right next to the table edge is generally a very bad idea. The real killer for lack of ranged anti-tank is not enough range, shots, strength, lance/melta or AP 1 to reliably take out the inevitable tidal wave of stupidly cheap, obnoxiously strong light transports that are functionally immune to small arms fire. Hive Guard are the closest thing in the codex to combating that threat and they're 24", 2 shots apiece, Str 8 with laughable AP and an elite slot per unit. It's functional, but not to the extent that the 5th edition metagame requires. In the current environment it's more of a life support measure than a truly competitive aspect of the codex. Generally the army ends up relying on assaulting monstrous creatures to crack open armor and that's a whole different kettle of suck all to itself.

Except that Tyranid firepower is only really geared towards suppressing shooting so that the Tyranids can close. There's a reason so much of it causes pinning. Additionally, a unit that didn't move in the previous player turn because it was Stunned or Immobilized will be hit automatically. Shaken or Weapon Destroyed is also a good result.

That said, you shouldn't always rely on Monstrous Creatures, unless facing AV14, especially transports. You want to have smaller bugs so you can surround the transport and enough S4 attacks in close combat can Wreck a Rhino. But back to firepower:

Something people seem to ignore are Venom Cannons and Heavy Venom Cannons. They aren't the greatest weapons in the arsenal, but they have 36" range and S6/9 hitting power. They don't have the penalty against Open Topped Vehicles. Problem with Vipers? Venom Cannon. Problem with Long Fangs? Venom Cannon. Problem with Battlewagons? Heavy Venom Cannon. Relying on Hive Guard is simply inefficient because Hive Guard do one thing and one thing well: light anti-vehicle. But three units is not enough if you're going to engage 6+ vehicles.

And then you're going to need something to shoot up infantry once you've dismounted it, or perhaps to ensure you kill it before it kills you. Something else to remember when facing a parking lot is that the tanks need to move in a specific order, and tanks that are Stunned or Immobilized can either hold up the whole column, or cause it to disperse. Trying to chase down vehicles means you failed to hold the enemy in position for mopping up.

Being able to affect deployment with Spore Mines, for example, far outweighs any explosive effect that they might have, although having Biovores to shell stuff like Long Fangs is a good idea too. Like Ymgarl Genestealers and Lictors function to control and sculpt enemy deployment and movement. Outflanking models keep them away from the sides, Deep Striking models can be used to 'weed' the enemy army.

I never manadge to pinn anything. Moast things have sutch a big leadership value. The trouble with mys lists is that I am to big a fan of the good stuff (genstealers) I usualy do not have many points to spend on other things.

No matter how many % of the point value you spend on gunns a long ranged army will usualy outgunn you. (I do not want to speculate but I will asume a IG, SM or Eldar will be abel to outshoot you.) Seing how good a lott of the tyranid ranged weaponds usualy are good in mellee as well it could make sence that if we did not meet a list geared towards ranged combatt we could very well be abel to outshoot them. We could do ranged better then orks, and when orks come into close combat with us the tyranofexes/harpyes/hibe tyrant guard is usualy very good in close combat. In sutch a list warriors might actualy be good since you are trying to engange him head on turn one. They are scooring and for a 105 point you get synapse, shadow in the warp and the acid gun could probably penetrate and stunn less important things while your big guns do the actual killing. Hive tyrants with big guns, tyrant guard, warriors, harpy (potensialy dropping in round 2, must die or it will charge something round 3) and tyranofexes and biovore broods (a brood of 2 for hordes) in the heavy suport. It would rock agaunst any one that where less ranged then you are since that would force them to come to you, instead of the other way around. The problem with tyranids is that when the troops are on the table, the one with less gunns is the one that have to attack. (Usualy us.)

With that being sead, what we usualy need ranged weaponds for is to take down glass hammers fast (vypers and landspeeders) or to take down transports. The problem with tanks is that they can back up and shoot while all we can do is runn after them turn after turn. We need to hit fast, and that is why I do not like the mawlock or lictors. Perhaps you can runn the mawlock up, but he is not that impresive in close combat and with the shatter and str 6 on the side armour it has very small chanches of killing tanks when it comes up. SM / IG / DE / 'Nids / Orks yes, tanks no. Lictors are build for close combat, but they can not attack before turn 3?! What is up with that. at least the deathleaper kan prevent psykers (mephiston) and he can jump around until he contests last turn (witch is awsome) Mawlocks can probably also force things objects last turn, but he just does not do enough until then. Perhaps in a drop spore list where you have better time. (or less time, as round 1 really do not count, and your drop your round 2 reserves in the DE reversed flank manover.)

It seems like a 3rd good way to build a good Nid list is to go MASSIVE on T6. With a trevigon HQ, 2 as troops (and gaunts of course) some cheap T6 hive guards for ranged stunn/destruction and then just spend the REST on Carnifex. It is not good at 1000 points, and not at apoxalypse scales but around 1750 there is only so mutch T6 you are prepeared for before you just give up. One of those carnifexes is gonne reach the oponents side, no matter how many long fangs with missile launchers there are.

(4th way if of course massiv drop pods.)

Sorry for the bad spelling, but I am a dyslextic and it is late at night. If you wanne burn me as a heretic witch, then honestly just skipp the post.

Niiai wrote: Perhaps you can runn the mawlock up, but he is not that impresive in close combat and with the shatter and str 6 on the side armour it has very small chanches of killing tanks when it comes up.

It does say in the Terror from the Deep rule that you ALWAYS rool against rear armor thought. But I can see the problem now if the opponent places his long range near the table edge. Guess you'll just have to pray to the dice god or hope that you can survive appering in a safer spot and assualt the next turn