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Your Battlewagons will blow up. Take 3. Take a KFF. Trust to some luck (you are playing Orks!) - sorry, you don't get Landraiders.

If one blows up right away, send those boys back to your objective, or have them hide behind the ones not blown up.

You did get Red Paint Job, so get moving and get near something you can crump. When the boys are out, keep them moving and Deffroll something. The goal is to have objectives when the dust settles, not Battlewagons.

They are not for driving around in - they're like attack sleds - run 'em downhill & jump out! Keep them open-topped. Stuff 'em with 20 Sluggas boys or Nobs or Meganobs. IG with a lot of ordnance fire is just going to suck. It is just a tough matchup for Orks. Throw some trucks and coptas and buggies and even outflanking commandos at them to make their life more interesting.

What Dash said. Quite simply it's the best advice I can see for such a subject.

Dash knows a lot of orks. Hes got good advise here.

Two questions, and I'm sorry if this seems like a bit of a topic-detour...

What is this 3+ vehicle cover save I saw mentioned a couple of times here? I've not been playing long, up to a year at most, but I thought I knew my BRB.

@Dashofpepper:

How would you deploy against mechdar going second and starting in reserve? I play Eldar and my Ork-fielding buddy seems to be at a severe disadvantage in both scenarios of if he goes first, I reserve everything and basically decide where and when I will strike at his vulnerable side armor(no way to hide that from Eldar, especially around the middle of the board). If I go first, I have an advantage of speed even if I'm not as long-range heavy as IG. Turn 2, heck, even turn 3 charge against the Eldar seems possible only if I make a mistake.

Araenion wrote:Two questions, and I'm sorry if this seems like a bit of a topic-detour...

What is this 3+ vehicle cover save I saw mentioned a couple of times here? I've not been playing long, up to a year at most, but I thought I knew my BRB.

When one is forced to shoot at different arc from the one the model is in, due to not being able to see the onje your in at all. IE Guyy shooting

sn0zcumb3r wrote:halonachos: what you on about mate? You dont know your ork so dont give ideas. Battlewagons with hard case are no longer open topped so the orks can't assault out of them if they move which is basically the point of a BW spam list

I play against Orks about 70% of the time I play, I run IG and only lose if the Orks get into CC with me. Again, he asked how he could save his BWs and I told him to put on an 'ard case and put 10 normal boyz in it. I wouldn't shoot at that. I was kind of being literal in interpreting his question and not telling him how to use it effectively.


As far as the Tau go with their marker lights, they're murder because they ignore cover saves,IIRC.

Another thing that I would be worried about are broadsides with jump packs. They can get a nice 'hit and run' bonus that would let them jump behind your BWs to gain access to your rear armor(10, IIRC). Couple that with marker lights and you're in a tight spot unless your opponent rolls badly. After firing the broadside then gets to move back to its original position to deny you the satisfaction of killing the broadsides.

The Tau player may also field Skyrays to blast apart your Orks.

As far as SM player go I would put it up in the air. They tend to get cocky and do things like charge a Land Raider into a warboss with a powerklaw. If you run into a truly competent SM player they shouldn't do stupid things like that though.

Dash was absolutely right with the Deffkoptas. They can drop a big bomm to devastate a squad or even two squads depending on the placement. Not only that but they get saves for moving fast. The deffkoptas will mitigate the loss of your BWs by giving the opponent another target to worry about. Besides making your BWs a worthless target(by adding an 'ard case and carrying 10 unupgraded boyz) your only other option is to provide another target that will distract the opponent long enough for your BWs with 30 boyz with 'eavy armor and a power klaw to get within assault range. At that point any shooty army has effectively lost.

halonachos wrote:
A fully loaded battlewagon is a tempting target so I suggest putting an 'ard case on it. I also suggest not using it to carry 30 Orks around. Those Orks will get closer to their objective faster, but chances are they'll take a hit and keep taking hits the entire game.

I would suggest putting an 'ard case on them and making them less valuable targets. Load them with 10 boys or some other cheap unit to prevent losses.

sn0zcumb3r wrote:halonachos: what you on about mate? You dont know your ork so dont give ideas. Battlewagons with hard case are no longer open topped so the orks can't assault out of them if they move which is basically the point of a BW spam list

I play against Orks about 70% of the time I play, I run IG and only lose if the Orks get into CC with me. Again, he asked how he could save his BWs and I told him to put on an 'ard case and put 10 normal boyz in it. I wouldn't shoot at that. I was kind of being literal in interpreting his question and not telling him how to use it effectively.

Dash was absolutely right with the Deffkoptas. They can drop a big bomm to devastate a squad or even two squads depending on the placement. Not only that but they get saves for moving fast. The deffkoptas will mitigate the loss of your BWs by giving the opponent another target to worry about. Besides making your BWs a worthless target(by adding an 'ard case and carrying 10 unupgraded boyz) your only other option is to provide another target that will distract the opponent long enough for your BWs with 30 boyz with 'eavy armor and a power klaw to get within assault range. At that point any shooty army has effectively lost.

Mate, the 'advice' you gave was really good for this reason;
Thing is if one is putting cases on to carry ten boys... why not take 3x as many trukks? After all they cost only 40 points with RPJ... it's a lot harder to deal with That many trukks over BW - as they are faster and one CAN STILL ASSAULT AFTER DISEMBARKING. Which is important right, because otherwise you'll basically be in CC... with a whole round of opponents shooting, with only 10 guys... of course you're going to shoot at something else over that - it's a terrible terrible waste of at minimum ~160 points, and there'd be no PK in that or a weapon or a ramm/DR to re-roll DT checks so it would be immobilised on weapon destroyed....

The advice you gave was accurate, yes, as I don't think any experienced player would bother shooting at the most over-costed under-performing unit in an army, that's right you achieved his goal of not having his BW shot at by making them useless. But very, very, bad advice.

The only time 'ard Cases are ever used to an ork armies advantage is when it's a bunker with lootas in it - and even then.... It does nothing, the lootas inside still can't shoot that turn...
Secondly - We are talking about solo suicide deffcopta singular - at most two (But iirc dash is a man who preferres 1 and two squads of war buggies depending on the META and points), it will not draw fire from a bw unless it's against a very poor opponent, this is because small arms fire is more than capable of taking down T(5) when it's all up and assaulting one's face. In addition a BiggBomb should "never" be taken, we we're just talking about using DK to tie up BSs in assault after firing a TLRL,


~~~
As some have said, going second the refused flank is the best way to go, going first try and hide the left or rightmost behind LoS terrain fork them to ensure dodgy facing hits if they really want that shot, keep the tight and ensure there's a spare transport spot for the KFF mek to just in when his Bw invariably blows up, - it's 14/12/10 open-topped, -they're called Lunch boxes for a reason =\

halonachos wrote:
Besides making your BWs a worthless target(by adding an 'ard case and carrying 10 unupgraded boyz) your only other option is to provide another target that will distract the opponent long enough for your BWs with 30 boyz with 'eavy armor and a power klaw to get within assault range. At that point any shooty army has effectively lost.

Battlewagons only have a transport capacity of 20. If you are playing somebody who is loading them up with 30 orkboyz then they're doin it wrong.

halonachos wrote:
Another thing that I would be worried about are broadsides with jump packs. They can get a nice 'hit and run' bonus that would let them jump behind your BWs to gain access to your rear armor(10, IIRC). Couple that with marker lights and you're in a tight spot unless your opponent rolls badly. After firing the broadside then gets to move back to its original position to deny you the satisfaction of killing the broadsides.

What game system are you playing? Broadsides aren't jump packs. Broadsides don't have hit and run. How do the broadsides jump BEHIND my BWs and jump back to their original position? Are you talking about broadsides in 40k here?

halonachos wrote:The Tau player may also field Skyrays to blast apart your Orks.

Dash was absolutely right with the Deffkoptas. They can drop a big bomm to devastate a squad or even two squads depending on the placement.

I have no choice now but to agree with the rest. You seem to be at a different level and frequency with everyone else here.

I am sure he meant Battlesuits, not Broadsides. (They can even deepstrike behind you and stop your little Battlewagon Brigade right in the middle of the board)

All those tau look the same to me too...

I have never had much luck with the Big Bomms - usually I am bee-lining my Coptas to vehicles that have not moved yet, and we can't detour to fly over vulnerable troops in the open. Plus it scatters. Besides - not many vulnerable troops around here - they are usually cocooned in their transports early in the game!

ChrisCP wrote:When one is forced to shoot at different arc from the one the model is in, due to not being able to see the onje your in at all. IE Guyy shooting

You learn something new every day. Thanks!

I noticed I left out the thread in my last post sorry stridex
lol
The more box like your BW are the more side armor you can hide. The Deffrolla increases side armor, like the plain front (without the reinforced ram piece) works best.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/321112.page

This thread remains incredibly painful to read. Anyone know people who like to talk just to hear their own voice? I think there are also people who post just to post, regardless of content. :(

To answer a few questions:

1. Araenion: A 3+ cover save is conferred if you shoot at a vehicle, and the part of the vehicle you can see is not in the facing you're in. If you're in my side arc, but the only part of my battlewagon you can see is the front of it....3+ cover save. IE, you get to shoot at AV12 instead of AV14, but I get +1 cover save. Its very situational, and dependent on cover and how you position your vehicles.

2. If Mechdar go second and deploy in reserve, I'm going to move up to the middle of the field so that I have the shortest distance to travel to wherever you come out. I'm also going to use my rockkit buggies and deffkoptas to screen against your movement ability in case you have fire dragons - so that they won't be able to move 12" and disembark within firing range of me. And since you'll be coming on piecemeal, I'm going to heavily rely on my Lootas, Deffkoptas, and Warbuggies to try hurting your vehicles. Stunned is good (where applicable) to give me an extra turn to get there (and to autohit in combat), immobilized is great, shaken is good enough, weapon destroyed...depends on what is getting shot at. Wrecked and explodes are always welcome. =p Mechdar have speed over an Ork wrecking ball, but as the Orks continually bisect the board towards you, you're going to get stuck in a corner, such that even a 24" flat out won't get you more than 12" away from the wrecking ball.

Although I've been playing Dark Eldar for a while, and the Mechdar reserve trick for going second is suicide - because I can line your back table edge with my vehicles in an offset dispersal pattern at the 4" mark and again at the 9" or so mark kind of like - _ - _ - so that when you *do* come on from reserves....you're forced to move flat out onto the table over me because there's nowhere within the 1-12" mark for you to get onto the table and not be more than 1" from me. Mechdar get a 4+ cover save, but I've denied their attempted reserve alpha strike.

For me that is the purpose of trukk boyz - assuming you want to assault, trukks should form the side armor of your battlewagons for the first one or two turns. A bik mek with KFF in a central wagon should provide cover to the adjoining trukks so they have to first successfully hit, get throught the force field and penetrate the trukk. (Of course the third thing is almost automatic on a trukk.)

The use of buggies, bikes, stormboyz or deffkoptas to deflect enemy firing at the wagons are all other viable options.

As Dashofpepper states - the synergy of your other choices should influence your opponent from making auto-choices to crack the wagons automatically. As an example:

20 Rokkit boyz fly first turn towards the long fangs with MLs. They are guaranteed to assault the long fangs but right behind them is a wagon full of boyz. He has to make a choice, shoot the wagon and concede that 20 rokkit boyz will annihilate the fangs or try to get the juicy wagon and troop choice inside.

If your goal is to preserve the wagons and what they contain, just make sure the other parts of your army present quicker threats to your opponent than the wagons so they are -at least early- not the primary threat.
Ideally, get your list to the point where your opponent is damned if he does or damned if he doesn't. (e.g. kill the koptas on turn one or he loses something precious but then the boyz in the wagon will kill something else that he perceives is vital to his cause.)

feluca wrote:Hi!

Don't know if this is of any help, but this is a quick sketch i made of what I think everyone is talking about.



The picture is 720 x 480 (like a 6' x 4' table), and the battlewagons are to scale (6 inch long, 3 inch wide).

Ofcourse this sketch has no interveining terrain at all, and therefor I think it is possible to show only your front arc at the enemy
Hope that helped!

The wagons in the center will still have their sides exposed to enemy fire (albeit at a 4+ coversave, but you had that already from the KFF).

Yeap that is the point many are trying to make.
It is not possible to hide your side armor, only minimize who gets shots at it. You can use other parts of your army to remove/distract shooters however that subject is rather irrelevant to the original question of BW deployment

You only deploy centraly if you are going first or in spearhead which should be your best deploymet type.
If you go second you have to hug a table edge or something that blocks LOS(if something like that exists) however you still have to place your BW like steps because when their fronts are parallel in I I I formation there are still several angles where you can see the sides of the central BW

So the best ways to deploy are to-

minimize (not eliminate unless very good terrain or poor deployment placement) side armor shots by-

Utilizing terrain.
Sides of board if going second.
KFF (should always have this).
Slanting BWs
Trukks or Stormboyz hugging sides
Distractions by units like buggies or Deffkoptas.

Anything I missed?

praying to the dice should be added when fancing massed firepower

Dashofpepper wrote:If Mechdar go second and deploy in reserve, I'm going to move up to the middle of the field so that I have the shortest distance to travel to wherever you come out. I'm also going to use my rockkit buggies and deffkoptas to screen against your movement ability in case you have fire dragons - so that they won't be able to move 12" and disembark within firing range of me. And since you'll be coming on piecemeal, I'm going to heavily rely on my Lootas, Deffkoptas, and Warbuggies to try hurting your vehicles. Stunned is good (where applicable) to give me an extra turn to get there (and to autohit in combat), immobilized is great, shaken is good enough, weapon destroyed...depends on what is getting shot at. Wrecked and explodes are always welcome. =p Mechdar have speed over an Ork wrecking ball, but as the Orks continually bisect the board towards you, you're going to get stuck in a corner, such that even a 24" flat out won't get you more than 12" away from the wrecking ball.

Okay, well, that's exactly the way my friend played against me a few times. And I should add that in Annihilation missions he doesn't have that much of a problem(I do eventually get stuck in a corner and that's 1-3 kill points for him), but in point missions the fact I can pretty much contest any point I want while he is stuck on one side of the board(if he happens to divide his forces, he's done me a huge favour) has thus far made it very difficult for him to do anything except try to win a draw against me. Deffkoptas while dangerous, are usually handled easily by all the S6 shots in my list so there's nothing left for me to shoot at after a turn other than unsupported Battlewagons. I should note two things...I field an Autarch so my reserve come a bit more reliably than usual and there are some hybrid units in my list that seem to cause Orks much more trouble than another skimmer or two would. Warp Spiders + Autarch handle Lootas easily and outflanking War Walkers usually get at least one chance to target the rear AV10 of the Wagons, which more often than not results in destroying it, cover save or no.

We don't tailor our lists, but it seems my list has a natural advantage against Orks or Tyranids as opposed to mech SM or IG. My other friend plays Destroyer-wing Necrons and that in turn is something I struggle with.

Dashofpepper wrote:Although I've been playing Dark Eldar for a while, and the Mechdar reserve trick for going second is suicide - because I can line your back table edge with my vehicles in an offset dispersal pattern at the 4" mark and again at the 9" or so mark kind of like - _ - _ - so that when you *do* come on from reserves....you're forced to move flat out onto the table over me because there's nowhere within the 1-12" mark for you to get onto the table and not be more than 1" from me. Mechdar get a 4+ cover save, but I've denied their attempted reserve alpha strike.

I'm not so much interested in alpha-strike, as in denying my opponent's deffkopta alpha strike. Depending on the mission, I actually like starting first, but if I start second, then I have no real choice except start in reserve, although against wagonspam Orks that proved to be a very good tactic.

I don't doubt that with practice, his list will do much better against mine.

Lost Boyz wrote:I am sure he meant Battlesuits, not Broadsides. (They can even deepstrike behind you and stop your little Battlewagon Brigade right in the middle of the board)


I have never had much luck with the Big Bomms - usually I am bee-lining my Coptas to vehicles that have not moved yet, and we can't detour to fly over vulnerable troops in the open. Plus it scatters. Besides - not many vulnerable troops around here - they are usually cocooned in their transports early in the game!

Yep, I get their battlesuits and broadsides confused, my bad.

As far as koptas go, I've had squads forced to fall back because of them which denies me the ability to shoot obviously. I guess those come down to luck of the scatter dice.

Skyray gets 6 seeker missiles and a secondary weapon( a pair of burst cannons, a pair of gun drones, or a smart missile system), on top of that they get two network markerlights so they get to add a -1 modifier to any cover saves you may want.

Other than a Skyray a Tau player can take a hammerhead. Use the anti-tank mode to take out your BWs and then use the sub-munition to take out your boys.