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How do you guys deploy your battlewagons in pitched battle formation against shooty armies like SM, Tau, IG?
Bear in mind that pitched battle deployment means that the opponent will have an easy time spotting the side armour of your wagons. And AV12 open topped wagons don't normally survive 1 round of shooting, even with KFF saves.

So how do you guys keep your wagons alive?

Battlewagons are fantastic targets for those armies, I don't play Orks but I do play against Orks using IG so let me tell you what I look for in a target.

A typical Ork battlewagon will be filled with Orks and as such I want to increase the chances of killing those Orks as much as possible. The other thing about most battlewagons is the fact that they are going to be open-topped in order to allow maximum carrying capacity. I take my tanks and pop shots at them because I have a better chance of destroying an open-topped vehicle and killing the Orks inside.

A fully loaded battlewagon is a tempting target so I suggest putting an 'ard case on it. I also suggest not using it to carry 30 Orks around. Those Orks will get closer to their objective faster, but chances are they'll take a hit and keep taking hits the entire game.

If you load them up with weapons I'm going to want to shoot at it so it can't shoot at me. The other downside to loading it up with weapons is that if you move you lose the ability to fire all of them at once and you have to sit still to use them all.

I would suggest putting an 'ard case on them and making them less valuable targets. Load them with 10 boys or some other cheap unit to prevent losses.

halonachos wrote:Battlewagons are fantastic targets for those armies, I don't play Orks but I do play against Orks using IG so let me tell you what I look for in a target.

A typical Ork battlewagon will be filled with Orks and as such I want to increase the chances of killing those Orks as much as possible. The other thing about most battlewagons is the fact that they are going to be open-topped in order to allow maximum carrying capacity. I take my tanks and pop shots at them because I have a better chance of destroying an open-topped vehicle and killing the Orks inside.

A fully loaded battlewagon is a tempting target so I suggest putting an 'ard case on it. I also suggest not using it to carry 30 Orks around. Those Orks will get closer to their objective faster, but chances are they'll take a hit and keep taking hits the entire game.

If you load them up with weapons I'm going to want to shoot at it so it can't shoot at me. The other downside to loading it up with weapons is that if you move you lose the ability to fire all of them at once and you have to sit still to use them all.

I would suggest putting an 'ard case on them and making them less valuable targets. Load them with 10 boys or some other cheap unit to prevent losses.

Really bad advice and/or uninformed advice. All of it.

As for the OP, if you deploy first, you are going first. So it doesn't matter. If you are deploying 2nd, well, you know where your opponents have placed their heavy weapons, you can face your wagons accordingly.

Take a look at page 60 of the rule book. Front armor is actually an arc. It is pretty hard to hit side armor when your opponent is across the table from you.

To be save however, you should clump up your BWS. Either use terrain or is there isn't any, face your outboard BWs slighty to their respective corners.

\||/ A formation like that. Again, look at the arcs on page 60. Your opponent should never get a side shot on you.

halonachos wrote:Battlewagons are fantastic targets for those armies, I don't play Orks but I do play against Orks using IG so let me tell you what I look for in a target.

A typical Ork battlewagon will be filled with Orks and as such I want to increase the chances of killing those Orks as much as possible. The other thing about most battlewagons is the fact that they are going to be open-topped in order to allow maximum carrying capacity. I take my tanks and pop shots at them because I have a better chance of destroying an open-topped vehicle and killing the Orks inside.

A fully loaded battlewagon is a tempting target so I suggest putting an 'ard case on it. I also suggest not using it to carry 30 Orks around. Those Orks will get closer to their objective faster, but chances are they'll take a hit and keep taking hits the entire game.

If you load them up with weapons I'm going to want to shoot at it so it can't shoot at me. The other downside to loading it up with weapons is that if you move you lose the ability to fire all of them at once and you have to sit still to use them all.

I would suggest putting an 'ard case on them and making them less valuable targets. Load them with 10 boys or some other cheap unit to prevent losses.

This might be the worst advice I've ever seen given on these forums.

You should NEVER, under no circumstances, even consider paying 10 points to make your battlewagon worse by putting a 'ard case on it. That "upgrade" causes you to lose the option to assault after moving the transport...

What you should do is, simply, get used to it. You will likely lose a battlewagon on turn 1, however, you can often decide which battlewagon that will be.

If you run 3 BW's you can start with each one beside the others, with your KFF in the middle. That way, if they target your middle BW, then you can get a 3+ cover save due to the opponent being in a facing they cannot see. Then, you use the speed of your battlewagons to get a turn 2 charge off.

Don't expect your BWs to survive. Even with your KFF, they'll die. Focus on getting your units across the field as soon as possible, and using your other BWs to keep the KFF wagon alive.

shealyr wrote:Don't expect your BWs to survive. Even with your KFF, they'll die. Focus on getting your units across the field as soon as possible, and using your other BWs to keep the KFF wagon alive.

This.

Battlewagons aren't as tough as they seem, but it's sort of irrelevant. The main point is to get all the squishy stuff inside to the other side of the table as quick as possible, if the battlewagon survives the whole way, huzzah, if not, oh well. Of course as stated, a KFF really helps with the amount of fire it requires to take down and careful positioning if going second to avoid the worst of the inevitable barrage.

On the subject of putting 'ard case on them... just don't, unless you never, ever use it as a transport. Running a non-open-topped Ork transport is a nightmare, trust me... I've tried (because I'm kind of an idiot like that).

@ shealyr & Taoofss

Let's leave the part about going first out, and assume you are going 2nd.

If opponent deploy his heavy weapons on the left and right, you cant face one direction and not get hit on the side armour by another direction.

If it's AV12, alot of lists (say at 1750 pt level) has the capability to cripple on average 2 wagons on turn 1.

Really now, I'm just telling the man why I like to shoot at Battlewagons.

I love it when my meltaguns can deepstrike next to a battlewagon and destroy it, I love it when my vanquisher picks battlewagons off and the 'eavy armor nobs inside have to take an extra save they may of needed, I love it when anything I have with the word 'blast' in its description can tear it apart.

Seriously, they are a fun target and the guy was asking how he could prevent the loss of his battlewagons. The only possible way I could see myself not shooting at a battlewagon is if it had an 'ard case and only ten boys in it because at that point I wouldn't want to shoot at it.

Now saying something like 'get used to it' is great advice, why should the op try to keep his BWs alive instead of just accepting the fact that they're going to get wasted.

Also that formation is fine until you start facing ordnance barrage weapons firing indirectly. This is because they go against the side armor of a vehicle so there is a strong chance that they will get your side armor. I have yet to meet an IG player who wouldn't take at least one ordnance barrage/blast weapon toting vehicle.

As far as battlewagons loaded up with guns they have to sit still to fire all of the weapons or you have to choose which ones you want to fire if you do move.

If you remember the core rules then you know that barrage weapons will go against the side armor(to represent the weapons hitting the top of the vehicle) and you would also know that an ordnance barrage weapon gets to roll two dice for armor penetration. Looking at an IG codex you would know that IG players now have a plethora of weapons with these abilities


In fact the best advice I can give overall is to make them a less satisfying target if you want them to live. If you want to use them effectively they're not going to live.

If you're going up against IG you also have the added issue of 'orders'. The most important one going against you is going to be the 'bring it down' order which counts any weapons shooting at the vehicle count as twin-linked.

Tau would most likely use hammerheads. They have two different shot abilities for anti-vehicle and for anti-infantry so thats what makes them deadly.

striderx wrote:@ shealyr & Taoofss

Let's leave the part about going first out, and assume you are going 2nd.

If opponent deploy his heavy weapons on the left and right, you cant face one direction and not get hit on the side armour by another direction.

If it's AV12, alot of lists (say at 1750 pt level) has the capability to cripple on average 2 wagons on turn 1.

Read page 60 of the rule book. Look at the diagram about armor arcs. It is impossible for your opponent to hit side armor on turn one if you clump your BW and pivot the outer ones.

@halonachos

The majority of your bad advice stem from you not understanding or knowing the rules to this game what-so-ever. You REALLY need to read page 60 of the rule book, especially the "Template and Blast weapon against vehicle" section. While you are at it, reread the rest of the book as well.

striderx wrote:If opponent deploy his heavy weapons on the left and right, you cant face one direction and not get hit on the side armour by another direction.

If it's AV12, alot of lists (say at 1750 pt level) has the capability to cripple on average 2 wagons on turn 1.

By this would I be right in assuming you are only running the one battlewagon?

I ask as there probably isn't a great deal you could do in this position, regardless of how it's set up it's a big inviting target (I have only been able to afford a single battlewagon myself so feel your pain if so), the only thing I've found deflects fire from it is to simply swamp my enemy with targets. Sure my battlewagon is a big target but there's also more boyz, Nobz and Mega-Nobz in Trukks not to mention Lootas and Deffkoptas, the latter able to use their scout move to really make them a target that needs dealing with immediately.

Even if running multiple wagons this would still hold true.

wib wrote:
By this would I be right in assuming you are only running the one battlewagon?

3-4
Whether it is l l l , \ l / , / / / , or \ \ \ , opponent still gets the side armour from either side.

striderx wrote:

wib wrote:
By this would I be right in assuming you are only running the one battlewagon?

3-4
Whether it is l l l , \ l / , / / / , or \ \ \ , opponent still gets the side armour from either side.

I don't understand what the issue is.

I told you your opponent can't hit your side armor on turn one (scout move, infiltrators not withstanding). I've given you the reason why (armor arcs). I even gave you the page number in the rule book where it backs up what I told you.

Why do you keep insisting that your opponent still get side armor on your BWs?

Taoofss wrote:

I don't understand what the issue is.

I told you your opponent can't hit your side armor on turn one (scout move, infiltrators not withstanding). I've given you the reason why (armor arcs). I even gave you the page number in the rule book where it backs up what I told you.

Why do you keep insisting that your opponent still get side armor on your BWs?

Erm, I know the rules very well.
Take a 6 by 4 board.
Put your wagons in the middle of your deployment zone, facing straight.
Put 2 models on either corner of your opponent's deployment.
Extend the arcs from the wagon to the opponent's model on either side.

You ll see what I mean :-). In fact, I m pretty curious why you think it wouldnt happen. Did you just imagine it wouldnt happen, or are you dead sure it can't happen from your gaming experience?

striderx wrote: 3-4
Whether it is l l l , \ l / , / / / , or \ \ \ , opponent still gets the side armour from either side.

Ah, well then, I would say you really need to use terrain to your advantage where you can but ultimately, it's always going to be a problem when going second so aside from the obligatory KFF all you can really do is try to block as much of their LOS as possible.

Maybe because he is getting hit from mobile heavy weapons? I dont know, it is not specified.

I dont know what to tell you op, look and see were the weapons that can hurt you are, face them with front armor. Make use of terrain, make use of other units to block los if/when possible, stay out of ranges when possible and understand that you are going to lose some, and that you can have some control over what one.

If the other army has enough mobile heavy weapons to down 2 of your battle wagons however you deploy them as you say, then they can. Not much we can do about that.

And if they are doing the 2 corner thing then you just gotta pick a side to face, terrain should decide that for you.

I'm done hitting my head against this wall. Go ahead and let your opponents take those side armor shots on turn one.

yournamehere wrote:If the other army has enough mobile heavy weapons to down 2 of your battle wagons however you deploy them as you say, then they can. Not much we can do about that.

I ve toyed with the idea of refused flanking. But the downside is I will be extremely far away from the other side which I m not flanking.

Taoofss wrote:I'm done hitting my head against this wall. Go ahead and let your opponents take those side armor shots on turn one.

If your opponent don't get side armour shots on you from his extreme left or right side, I pretty certain either you are cheating your opponent, or both of you are playing the game wrongly. I do hope you are drawing the cross arcs correctly on your battlewagon. Go back home, take out your battlewagon, place it on your 6 by 4 mat, and toy with it

If you're going second in pitched battle, you really should set your BWs up on one flank, preferably away from as much melta as possible, and use a refused flank tactic.

If your opponent spreads out across the entire board, you refuse one flank. If they castle up, you'll have an easy time responding to their deployment to guarantee front armor.

But what I'm saying is this: rear armor or side armor, a Battlewagon is not hard to take down for most armies. Open-topped means half of all penetrating hits will wreck you, so you are forced into playing one way... get your wagons across the field ASAP.

Taoofss wrote:

striderx wrote:@ shealyr & Taoofss

Let's leave the part about going first out, and assume you are going 2nd.

If opponent deploy his heavy weapons on the left and right, you cant face one direction and not get hit on the side armour by another direction.

If it's AV12, alot of lists (say at 1750 pt level) has the capability to cripple on average 2 wagons on turn 1.

Read page 60 of the rule book. Look at the diagram about armor arcs. It is impossible for your opponent to hit side armor on turn one if you clump your BW and pivot the outer ones.

@halonachos

The majority of your bad advice stem from you not understanding or knowing the rules to this game what-so-ever. You REALLY need to read page 60 of the rule book, especially the "Template and Blast weapon against vehicle" section. While you are at it, reread the rest of the book as well.

And I quote;

The centre of the blast marker ends over the vehicle's hull. In this case the shell or missile has hit the vehicle and exploded on it. The armour penetration roll is resolved against the Armour value facing the firer, regardless of the position of the marker, using the full strength of the weapon. Hits from barrage weapons, however, always hit the vehicle's side armour(representing its top armour).

So I suggest that you learn how to read an entire section before you go off criticizing a player who uses barrage/ordnance weapons in just about every single game he plays.

Also Ordnance weapons;
Ordnance weapons (including Ordnance Barrage) hit with such force that the target's crew are turned to mush. When you roll to penetrate a vehicle's armour with an ordnance weapon, roll two dice instead of one and pick the highest result.

Perhaps you want to learn what you're talking about?

I play IG, I have Ordnance/Barrage weapons coming out of the wazoo now so I do know a thing or two about ordnance/barrage weapons.

As far as not being able to hit on turn one, its possible. If the opponent is using Tau and has broadsides or anything with jump packs he can jump behind your BWs and target the rear armour, take out the BWs, and then jump back into cover or well out of retaliatory range.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

shealyr wrote:But what I'm saying is this: rear armor or side armor, a Battlewagon is not hard to take down for most armies. Open-topped means half of all penetrating hits will wreck you, so you are forced into playing one way... get your wagons across the field ASAP.

Probably the only thing I can agree with. Shooty armies hate close combat and the possibility of 30 boyz engaging smaller squads in close combat is frightening so regardless of which army you play against your BWs are going to be prime targets. Each one may have 30 boys in it and after taking the BW out the boyz have to slog across the field where they will be targeted.

Okay for 1750 I can have an HQ, 2 platoon command squads, 10 squads with an autocannon each, 2 hellhounds( or 2 banewolf's or 1 of each), 2 Leman Russ's with HB sponsons and a hull mounted flamer, a manticore missile launcher, and two basilisks.

All together that gives me a range of 3 barrage ordnance weapons to 5 barrage ordnance weapons for four turns. The manticore can only fire four turns, but fires D3 Strength 10 AP 4 Ordnance Barrage weapons. The two basilisks contribute two Strength 9 AP 3 Ordnance Barrage weapons.

The fast attack(the banewolfs/hellhounds) can be used to mop up the orks who do survive the destroyed BWs. Those both provide template weapons, but the banewolf features the poisoned rule(wound on 2+) and is also AP 3. Two banewolfs can easily take out more than half of the orks that do survive the explosions.

Again, I'm speaking from experience with this.

I don't think anyone is trying to contradict that Barrage weapons get to hit side armor of vehicles.

I believe what most people are saying is that ESPECIALLY if you are going 2nd, it is (or should) be easy to deploy your Battlewagons in such a way that the opponent cannot get side armor hits on you Turn 1. That doesn't take into account Fast Vehicles or Infiltrators, etc.

In a Pitched Battle deployment, yes, if you deploy your Battlewagons up front, and the opponent deploys his tanks all the way onto his table edge, you opponent will (just barely) probably be able to hit your side armor, especially after a 6" move. However, knowing this if you deploy your Wagons this way, it's really your own fault. If you don't deploy your wagons in the center of the table, there's no way for your opponent to do this on Turn 1.

So, the answer is that if your opponent is going first, and puts Battlewagon-busting tanks on each of his flanks, deploy your Battlewagons such that they'll be facing the lesser threat if possible. Sure, if you do deploy this way, you won't be deploying as close as you could to the enemy. If you're relying on your Battlewagons to get in there and Deff-Roll and drop off Troops ASAP, it might be better to take the side armor hits and rely on your KFF to save you. You'll have to weigh the risks.

I'd also argue that if you're having this problem regularly, you may not be using enough intervening terrain. With Barrage weapons it won't make a difference, but you should have at least some impassible terrain on the table that your Battlewagons can take cover behind.

After Turn 1 though, with the Battlewagon's long profile, it's going to be near impossible in most games to deny side armor hits by turn 2 or 3.

Actually, Taoofss said its impossible to hit the side armor and told me to read the rules on page 60.

I personally cannot see how it is possible to prevent side armor hits.

Even if I include cover and take out any barrage weapons I can still see the possibility of hitting the side armor.

As long as a part of the side is available to sight they can hit the side armor, however he may be able to argue his way into a 3+ or 4+ cover save even without the KFF if the line of sight is iffy.

If your opponent is able to get side shots early on in the game you are a fething noob and deserve to loose

Yeeah, if the opponent has already deployed and you have 3 battlewagons to deploy... you can absolutely deploy so that your opponent won't get any side armor. Nothing says you have to line up in the open, directly in the middle of the board (about the only scenario I can think of that would remotely give a side armor shot). In fact... it is much harder to deploy BWs to allow a side armor than it would be not to.

Just line up even (or nearly even) with one of the side guns, then angle each BW to prevent the side shot. If this is the right side, you go \|| meanwhile if you chose the left side you go ||/ either way you aren't going to give up a side armor shot.

All this fear of turn 1 side armor is really wierd to me. Its very hard to pull off... not sure why this is happening in all your games.

Murrdox wrote:In a Pitched Battle deployment, yes, if you deploy your Battlewagons up front, and the opponent deploys his tanks all the way onto his table edge, you opponent will (just barely) probably be able to hit your side armor, especially after a 6" move.

Did you really physically tried / experience it? It's not even barely ! Really, go try it. Place the arcs, extend it all the way to your opponent's deployment zone. It's not cool to 'imagine' the wrong things here and keep harping on it.

Anyone got vassal screen shot to prove to these guys?

Mysticaria wrote:
Just line up even (or nearly even) with one of the side guns, then angle each BW to prevent the side shot. If this is the right side, you go \|| meanwhile if you chose the left side you go ||/ either way you aren't going to give up a side armor shot.

Which is the refused flanking we have been talking about ... ...

striderx wrote:

Murrdox wrote:In a Pitched Battle deployment, yes, if you deploy your Battlewagons up front, and the opponent deploys his tanks all the way onto his table edge, you opponent will (just barely) probably be able to hit your side armor, especially after a 6" move.

Did you really physically tried / experience it? It's not even barely ! Really, go try it. Place the arcs, extend it all the way to your opponent's deployment zone. It's not cool to 'imagine' the wrong things here and keep harping on it.

Anyone got vassal screen shot to prove to these guys?

Mysticaria wrote:
Just line up even (or nearly even) with one of the side guns, then angle each BW to prevent the side shot. If this is the right side, you go \|| meanwhile if you chose the left side you go ||/ either way you aren't going to give up a side armor shot.

Which is the refused flanking we have been talking about ... ...

Mysticaria wrote:Yeah, but not even talking about refused flank. Just something not exactly in the middle. It is hard to explain using only "/|\|\/" as keys. There are lots of different angles available except this 15-20 degree keys.

-Myst

Which is exactly why I started the thread - I am looking for something which I didnt yet figure out or missed.

So if you couldn't really explain here, then I mean there is nothing much I can do to receive the help.

Refused flank is the mech orks best friend, it keeps people sooting at our front armor. In addition to this, people who spread out will get a portion of their army smashed by all of your army. After that your army cleans up what is left.

halonachos wrote:
A fully loaded battlewagon is a tempting target so I suggest putting an 'ard case on it. I also suggest not using it to carry 30 Orks around. Those Orks will get closer to their objective faster, but chances are they'll take a hit and keep taking hits the entire game.

Battlewagons only have a transport capacity of 20.

striderx I believe this may be close to what you are looking for. It's has Vassal images I made to look at a similar topic.
There isnt really much you can do. You either have to align them like in image 3 or you will have to use terrain to completely block LOS to the broad side of the BW furthest forward in the formation. This does also mean that you loose a couple of inches on each BW deployd further back.

halonachos: what you on about mate? You dont know your ork so dont give ideas. Battlewagons with hard case are no longer open topped so the orks can't assault out of them if they move which is basically the point of a BW spam list

Hi!

Don't know if this is of any help, but this is a quick sketch i made of what I think everyone is talking about.



The picture is 720 x 480 (like a 6' x 4' table), and the battlewagons are to scale (6 inch long, 3 inch wide).

Ofcourse this sketch has no interveining terrain at all, and therefor I think it is possible to show only your front arc at the enemy
Hope that helped!

This is a painful thread to read. *winces*

OP:

1. Please check out some of my battle reports, linked in my signature. I play Mechanized Orks (triple battlewagons) and have had terrifying success with them across the country in RTTs and GTs alike against all manner of opponents (including the much feared shooty IG). Pay attention to my deployment pictures to see where I place my wagons depending on what army I am playing against.

2. If I am going first, I will almost always deploy centrally, with my three wagons either ||| or \|/ formation. A bit of offsetting can insure that if a flanking enemy is going to be shooting at the side armour arc of a wagon, you'll be getting a 3+ cover save because they can only see the front arc.

3. If I am going second, I will *rarely* deploy centrally - rather, I will use my army as a wrecking ball up one extreme board edge or the other. If an enemy has deployed their army with heavy weapons on both ends of the board, I will choose one side of the other to exploit. One side is going to face my front armour, and the other side is likely out of range with my being 65-72" away.

AV14 is a tough nut to crack. AV12 is still extremely survivable, especially given the 4+ cover save that the KFF commutes. Additionally, the Big Mek has Mek's Tools, and I take Grot riggers on my battlewagon (along with armour plates) - I don't care about shaken results because my battlewagons are assault unit delivery platforms; the only weapon on my battlewagons are a single big shoota - only there to absorb a "Weapon Destroyed" result to prevent my immobilization. I don't care about stunned results because the armour plates let me reduce it to shaken and keep moving. I don't care about weapon destroyed results; a 5 point big shoota in place simply to absorb this potential result. Immobilized is annoying, but I have two different ways of fixing it (Grot Riggers and the Mek Tools), sometimes with a reroll from a grot oiler depending on points in my list.

That means there are only two results I care about (and a third one being an annoyance). When you work out the ability to destroy a battlewagon at range - hitting it, rolling to penetrate against AV14, a 3+ or 4+ cover save, half the results on the damage table being useless - they are incredibly survivable transports....until you get into melta range of things, or thunderhammer charge range - each of which have their own counters (screening buggies / deffkoptas / etc). However, given that your Orky charge range significantly outdistances the ability of melta to 2d6 you (I run Ghazghkull Thraka always, so that's 28-30" for me) by the time the battlewagons are in range of serious melta threat, they're probably empty.

*EDIT*

One additional note to make: You specifically mentioned Tau, SM, IG. There should be other elements in your army to deal with various threats against you. Tau for example. The biggest threat to the battlewagons come from the twin-linked railguns on Broadside Battlesuits. Doubly bad if they have markerlight support to negate your cover save. That's where my deffkoptas come into play. If there is *any* way possible for my deffkoptas to scout up, move shoot and assault, they're going to get tied up with those broadsides immediately so that they don't get to shoot. Doesn't matter if I lose my deffkoptas, they're preventing the broadsides from shooting for a turn or two. Space Marines, same thing. I'll toss a deffkopta (or multiple deffkoptas) into a unit of Longfangs to keep them from shooting at me. They're STR4, I'm T5, and I've got a powerklaw. I probably won't win at the end of it, but I'll tie them up and prevent them from shooting for a turn or two. Loota support - those Orky autocannons of mine are going after whatever the most credible threat to my battlewagons are that they can realistically damage. I run them in units of 5....but if they can even SHAKE a vendetta....good enough. That's three twin-linked lascannons not shooting at me for a turn.

I don't know what kind of army you run, or what kind of synergy it has, but if you look to my battle reports in my signature, you'll hopefully see synergy and how units are working with each other.