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Kilkrazy wrote:It was a Brit who invented the term thought police.

No doubt. That was just an American's oblique critique of British law.


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Medium of Death wrote:So Americans should call the Cranium Cops, right?

Conscience cops, I would think.

Manchu wrote:One thing to keep in mind is that grown men are not always the primary target for this kind of media. Whatever else we can say, there's certainly nothing wrong -- as a matter of taste, culture, etiquette, etc -- with a highschool aged boy being attracted to a high school aged girl (and vice versa). This webcomic could have been produced by a person in that age group, in which case it would be an appropriate expression of their sexuality. And even if the creator is not of the age group represented, expression tantamount to nostalgic exploration of teenage sexuality (I'm thinking of Twilight here but Harry Potter fits the bill, too) doesn't seem to garner much criticism as long as pairings involving a significant age difference don't occur.

In this case, I can only assume that the only inappropriate pairing is between the underage character and an adult reader inserting him- or herself into the story. Quick, call the thought police! What would you Brits call them? Brain bobbies?

Would not Twilight then break the age appropriate interaction boundaries since the Sparkly vampire is considerably older than his teen aged girlfriend.?

Only technically, FITZZ. The vampire aspect of those books seems more geared to keeping them out of the Romance aisle than anything else. The vampire-live-forever-so-I'm-super-old line of thought is not what Twihards are reading those books for, unlike fans of Let The Right One In or even Anne Rice. For all intents and purposes, they're both highschoolers.

Manchu wrote:Only technically, FITZZ. The vampire aspect of those books seems more geared to keeping them out of the Romance aisle than anything else.

Ummm.... Manchu, much as I hate to do this, you may actually want to LOOK at a Romance aisle some day. 1/3 to 1/2 of Romance novels are Supernatural in nature. Vampires and Werewolves being the 2 mains. And not all of them are geared towards selling smut to women, either.


Man, some days I regret having worked at Barnes and Noble.

Manchu wrote:Only technically, FITZZ. The vampire aspect of those books seems more geared to keeping them out of the Romance aisle than anything else. The vampire-live-forever-so-I'm-super-old line of thought is not what Twihards are reading those books for, unlike fans of Let The Right One In or even Anne Rice. For all intents and purposes, they're both highschoolers.

In all honesty,I've not read the books and have only seen one of the films,but I did find myself wondering as to how certain aspects of the relationship between the vampire and young girl were handled.
I of course realize that,on the surface,they are both high school kids,but was curious if the "age difference" had ever been addressed in the story line,and if so,how the hypersensitive "protect the children" types had not picked up on it.

Platuan4th wrote:Ummm.... Manchu, much as I hate to do this, you may actually want to LOOK at a Romance aisle some day.

Never!

FITZZ wrote:. . . but was curious if the "age difference" had ever been addressed in the story line,and if so,how the hypersensitive "protect the children" types had not picked up on it.

I've only read the Wikipedia plot summaries. But it doesn't seem to come up. I guess it's just that thin of a premise.

Allow the resident Twilight scholar. They mention it (Bella turns 18 and Emmit makes a joke about Edward dating an "older woman"; Edward is asked how long he's been 17 and he answers "a long time"). It's more of the marketing that makes a difference in this case. They don't look weird together, so no one thinks anything. It's covered that even if Edward never turned Bella he would stay with her as she aged until she died, which creates some even stranger pictures. And Manchu, Twilight is in the Teen Fiction section if you want to be technical.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:And Manchu, Twilight is in the Teen Fiction section if you want to be technical.

You know, I think that's a very interesting section. I'd like to know more about what younger people like. But who wants to be the twenty-something creeper hanging out in the Teen Fiction section? Er, present company excluded of course. In any case, Cannerus, it sounds like it's pretty well a non-issue in the books. That sounds like a throw-away reference to me. I won't say what's-her-face is a bad author, mainly because I haven't read her books, but from what I have read I don't think she's really interested in writing about vampires.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Allow the resident Twilight scholar. They mention it (Bella turns 18 and Emmit makes a joke about Edward dating an "older woman"; Edward is asked how long he's been 17 and he answers "a long time"). It's more of the marketing that makes a difference in this case. They don't look weird together, so no one thinks anything. It's covered that even if Edward never turned Bella he would stay with her as she aged until she died, which creates some even stranger pictures. And Manchu, Twilight is in the Teen Fiction section if you want to be technical.

Ah...but,are Edwards life(?) experiences addressed?,the fact that he "has been 17 for a long time" would for all intents and purposes make him an "old man",even though he appears young...if you follow me.

Right. Do they do anything in those long years except go to highschool? More importantly, are the vampires more mature as characters or are all the characters pretty much the same as regards maturity?

Manchu wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:And Manchu, Twilight is in the Teen Fiction section if you want to be technical.

You know, I think that's a very interesting section. I'd like to know more about what younger people like. But who wants to be the twenty-something creeper hanging out in the Teen Fiction section? Er, present company excluded of course. In any case, Cannerus, it sounds like it's pretty well a non-issue in the books. That sounds like a throw-away reference to me. I won't say what's-her-face is a bad author, mainly because I haven't read her books, but from what I have read I don't think she's really interested in writing about vampires.

You'd hardly be the "twenty-something creeper", as you get as many adults perusing the section as teens, at least that's my experience from 3+ years of bookstore employment.




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Manchu wrote:Right. Do they do anything in those long years except go to highschool?

In Edward's case, apparently not. She was working on a version of the first book from his point of few and one of the very first sentences is something along the lines of: "I don't know what sins I did while I was alive, but I doubt they were grievous enough to warrant the hell that is an eternity of high school."

Perhaps one in a crowd of creepers? I'd never have guessed the section was that popular with adults. (I even feel a bit werid occasionally browsing the manga.) I thought Twilight and, to a lesser extent, Harry Potter were the first major examples of this sort of thing.

FITZZ wrote:

Manchu wrote:One thing to keep in mind is that grown men are not always the primary target for this kind of media. Whatever else we can say, there's certainly nothing wrong -- as a matter of taste, culture, etiquette, etc -- with a highschool aged boy being attracted to a high school aged girl (and vice versa). This webcomic could have been produced by a person in that age group, in which case it would be an appropriate expression of their sexuality. And even if the creator is not of the age group represented, expression tantamount to nostalgic exploration of teenage sexuality (I'm thinking of Twilight here but Harry Potter fits the bill, too) doesn't seem to garner much criticism as long as pairings involving a significant age difference don't occur.

In this case, I can only assume that the only inappropriate pairing is between the underage character and an adult reader inserting him- or herself into the story. Quick, call the thought police! What would you Brits call them? Brain bobbies?

Would not Twilight then break the age appropriate interaction boundaries since the Sparkly vampire is considerably older than his teen aged girlfriend.?

No, because it is live action.

The impact of the law(s) is that you can legally make a porn movie featuring actors depicted as being under age, but you can't legally do a drawing of it.

Anyway the law isn't concerned with age differentials. That's why we see teenagers getting nailed for nailing each other.

Manchu wrote:Perhaps one in a crowd of creepers? I'd never have guessed the section was that popular with adults. I thought Twilight and, to a lesser extent, Harry Potter were the first major examples of this sort of thing.

Don't forget that Narnia is also in that section, as well as the novels that Castle in the Sky and Howl's Moving Castle are based off of(incidentally, also I Know What You Did Last Summer). Many of people's most nostalgic novels are actually kids and teens books. As well, they're getting a boost from Hollywood(such as Percy Jackson and Cirque du Freak). The Ender series also gets double billing there.

As for Harry Potter, that's in the Kid's section, not Teen Fiction(at least at the Barnes).

FITZZ wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Allow the resident Twilight scholar. They mention it (Bella turns 18 and Emmit makes a joke about Edward dating an "older woman"; Edward is asked how long he's been 17 and he answers "a long time"). It's more of the marketing that makes a difference in this case. They don't look weird together, so no one thinks anything. It's covered that even if Edward never turned Bella he would stay with her as she aged until she died, which creates some even stranger pictures. And Manchu, Twilight is in the Teen Fiction section if you want to be technical.

Ah...but,are Edwards life(?) experiences addressed?,the fact that he "has been 17 for a long time" would for all intents and purposes make him an "old man",even though he appears young...if you follow me.

Stephenie Meyer was working on a prequel book about Edward called Midnight Son, but a few chapters got leaked and she got pissed and stopped writing it, though there is a backstory that is vaguely referenced in the main books. At one point he goes rogue and has a fairly Batman-like mindset in eating guys he considers evil but then "something happens." We really don't know that much at this point. He also has a pseudo-romance with a vampire which we know nothing about except that he really doesn't like her currently.

Manchu wrote:Right. Do they do anything in those long years except go to highschool? More importantly, are the vampires more mature as characters or are all the characters pretty much the same as regards maturity?

If nothing else he seems to have a bit of a god complex in thinking he knows what's best. Also bear in mind that for this continuity a vampire actually physically tunes to whoever he falls for, so on his end it's less infatuation and more a sense of responsibility. He honestly doesn't come off that sensual in the books to me. He's also incredibly jaded. Beyond that, not really, but I'm not sure what specific factors you're looking for.

Also, the only reason I know any of this was my last ex. I read all the books for her for her birthday one year and have been to every midnight release so far. It gave us something to connect on that I could halfway give a crap about. Look at it this way, girls could talk about toned down versions of vampires and werewolves or Jane Austen novels. I'll gladly take the former.

I rarely venture out of scifi/fantasy unless to pop over to world history. Look what I've been missing!

@KK: Any idea how UK laws impact sales of manga? That gets to the point of Amaya's OP here.

Depends really.

I mean, making baseless accusations of paedophilia, then throwing teddy from the pram when the target sends you a legal letter to knock it off is a bit beyond the pale (yes Misfire, I'm looking at you...) but this...I dunno. Possibly a bit distasteful.

Certainly, some guy got into troub for doing nudie simpsons doodlings.

@Cannerus: From your description, he seems 17 to me. The point is that there is not a substantive facet of their relationship affected by age. Is that right?

Other than Edward's stubborn "I know better than you" mindset, not really. It's also the story from Bella's side so it's really more her worrying about looking old and being with him, so if anything the opposite of what you're asking is exemplified

While I think the laws on child "cough" do count for drawn stuff (at least in Ireland it is).

But I don't think the police are going to go out and get you just because you saw the drawn girl naked.

And if just say you did show it to a judge and he took you to court,I doubt you'd go to jail with the sickos. He'd probably just give you a warning.

Now I don't know that for sure,since no one has gone to court over Lolicon in my country that I heard off.

Anyway,if it was THAT illegal,you would know about it,they wouldn't sell 98% of most anime and Manga.

Ahtman wrote:

Amaya wrote:The character in question is implied to be 13-15 years old.

As in many things, context is king. We don't have enough information about the comic to formulate any kind of sound opinion.

She's about to practice kissing with a female friend when said friend's mother enters the room and discovers them.

Polonius wrote:The modern taboo against attraction to sexually mature, but legally underage, children is a cultural more, and not a real aspect of traditional morality. There also isn't any real biological basis for it (like there is for incest or attraction to pre-pubescent children).

There are psychological reasons in today's culture for respecting it, and conforming to cultural rules is part of living in any society, so I'm certainly not arguing that sleeping with underage children is a good thing. What I would argue is that there's nothing inherently unhealthy about enjoying the look of an underage, but sexually mature, person.

I agree with you and with Ahmet's comments. The key difference between then and now is that we live considerably longer. There's nothing inherently wrong in considering some who is sexually mature, yet underage, to be attractive. Acting on such feelings is a whole other can of worms.

Sounds skeevy, but not technically illegal. There are plenty of good webcomics out there, no need to read one that depends on fanservice.

Amaya wrote:She's about to practice kissing with a female friend when said friend's mother enters the room and discovers them.

It sounds a lot worse when you put it that way. There is also the idea, which I think we've been dancing around regarding manga, that something that would be totally inappropriate in one medium -- say an American comic book -- wouldn't give most people pause for thought in another one -- like a manga.

Manchu wrote:

Amaya wrote:She's about to practice kissing with a female friend when said friend's mother enters the room and discovers them.

It sounds a lot worse when you put it that way. There is also the idea, which I think we've been dancing around regarding manga, that something that would be totally inappropriate in one medium -- say an American comic book -- wouldn't give most people pause for thought in another one -- like a manga.

Yeah, it does sound bad. I can't really explain it well, the only way to really understand the context fully would be to look through the 10-15 preceding pages. It was definetely being set up as a 'les yay' moment though, which are considerably more common in manga.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

How dare they use a underage girls naked butt to sell their product.

Why is she topless?

practice kissing

Then they are going to have a pillow fight while taking a shower. All normal things. At some point John Belushi's ladder falls down.

fanservice

More like fapservice, amiright?

Ahtman wrote:

practice kissing

Then they are going to have a pillow fight while taking a shower. All normal things. At some point John Belushi's ladder falls down.

fanservice

More like fapservice, amiright?

There was already a scene comparing breasts in the shower, so I think they're past that.

But yes, I have a sad feeling that fapservice is probably pretty accurate in this case.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:While I think the laws on child "cough" do count for drawn stuff (at least in Ireland it is).

But I don't think the police are going to go out and get you just because you saw the drawn girl naked.

And if just say you did show it to a judge and he took you to court,I doubt you'd go to jail with the sickos. He'd probably just give you a warning.

Now I don't know that for sure,since no one has gone to court over Lolicon in my country that I heard off.

Anyway,if it was THAT illegal,you would know about it,they wouldn't sell 98% of most anime and Manga.

Problem is that if you get any sort of conviction or even a caution relating to these sorts of things it'll be all over your criminal record or even possibly put you on the sex offenders register. The number of jobs you could lose and be unable to later work in for merely being cautioned for buying that Manga book and seeing that ambiguously aged naked person drawing is quite worrying IMO.

That's exactly why I like the (current) US law on this subject, Howard.

It is starting to sound like this webcomic is a softcore porn of underage girls. So yes, it could be problematic. Welcome to being red flagged by some agency.