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Moonshine, the Daemon is more than capable of breaking Argel Tal's sword in order to make the lie more believable. Besides, how would the Primarchs had gotten scattered originally, because they had to have without the Word Bearers in order for them to go back in time.

I hate time travel....

Yes it is very confusing, but the deamon was with them whilst they were back in time and the ships geller fields were up so no deamons could have got in and broken the sword, also imo if it was just a vision why was the deamon affraid of the emporer detecting him ?

To make his lie more believable.

moonshine wrote:
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Yes, When the word bearers opened their eyes argel tals sword (red iron) was broken beyond repair, and Raum warned them the emporer would sence them if they interfeared with anything.

Irrelevant to whether or not they actually traveled back in time (they didn't) and wrecked the Gellar Fields causing the "Diaspora of Primarchs".

No one that actually happened... Again, it was just Chaos twisting a 'vision' to get certain Legions to believe their lies and turn traitor.

Nothing more, nothing less...

Temporal mechanics in 40k are so f#$ked up that even though I don't think we can really trust anything the daemons say, they could well have been there. Remember the bit in the Ork Codex where the Warboss goes back in time due to a warp storm and meets his own Waagh about to get started? And then he kills himself to get an extra copy of his own gun? So yeah, they could have been in the chamber like that and Horus could very well have been there at the warp storm that pulled the Primarchs out.

Or, the daemon could be lying. Daemons have a bit of a reputation for that. Until we get something from the PoV of the Emperor or one of his scientists that were there or something we just won't know. Which is deliberate.

Alpharius wrote:

moonshine wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, When the word bearers opened their eyes argel tals sword (red iron) was broken beyond repair, and Raum warned them the emporer would sence them if they interfeared with anything.

Irrelevant to whether or not they actually traveled back in time (they didn't) and wrecked the Gellar Fields causing the "Diaspora of Primarchs".

No one that actually happened... Again, it was just Chaos twisting a 'vision' to get certain Legions to believe their lies and turn traitor.

Nothing more, nothing less...

Yes but how did argel tals sword brake ?

The Daemon could have easily broken it themselves.

Guys, don't forget that BEFORE the Daemons magically teleported back through time and space, the Gellar Fields were fine and functional.

There really is no way for Warp Entities to 'bust in' and then break it!

Yes but how could the deamon break the sword when he was with the word bearers.

During the vision maybe. For all we know they where motionless and unaware of their soundings during it.

moonshine wrote:Yes but how could the deamon break the sword when he was with the word bearers.

Because there's more than one Daemon running around?

Yes but how did other deamons get on board the ship, the geller feild was on

Gellar fields aren't indestructable, so it's not impossible to assume that the daemons were able to penetrate it.

yes but if deamons were able to penetrate it, Raum would'nt have needed to convince them to disable the geller feild

It is a pretty safe bet that the Emperor would notice when his super secret sanctum was penetrated by a daemon.

And only when Gellar Fields FAIL can daemons do anything!

The emporer might not have detected them, he was not in the gene lab at the time and the deamon told them not to interact with anything so the emporer would'nt notice.

Moonshine, what you've got to understand is that Daemons are liars. They will say and do and pretend to do anything to draw you to their cause.

And on another note, GW has stated before that just because you are reading it in a book does not make it true. You are only seeing a viewpoint, or an outright lie. I for one see the actual truth coming out later in the series.

Yes I must agree deamons are liars, but argel tals sword being broke makes it sound belivable, I don't think there is any other way the sword could have been broken

moonshine wrote:Thats probably what i meant, It's been so long since i read it, but I don't know why i thought horus killed the second primarch. One thing is odd to me though. Why did both horus and the word bearers not notice the 21st life pod for Omegon?, or why did they not spot two primarchs in the same life pod ?

Put a chain-axe in my face if I'm wrong, but I thought that some of the primarchs were tainted/mutated during their diaspora. I always thought this is how Sanguignius became Angel from X-men, Magnus turned into a cyclops and Corax into an emo.
Maybe Alpharius got copy-pasted when he left Terra in his pod?

Concerning Horus' vision during the HH, I simply think it is just a lie from the Chaos Gods. Horus and Argel Tal never went back in time and they never broke into Big E's lab. They were just tricked into thinking that Chaos was humanity's only hope for salvation. It was just a confusing vision created by the Chaos Gods, nothing more.

Yes but how did argel tals sword get broken then ?

Because Ingothel broke it.....

He was with the word beares in the vision how could he have broken it

He's a daemon. He has a lot of friends that are daemons. He showed the Word Bearers a vision, meaning they were under his sway. He broke the blade or had another break the blade. Or during the course of the vision Argel Tal broke his blade himself in whatever room they were in. The Word Bearers could also have been out of it for way longer than they thought they were. Besides, as I said earlier, GW themselves says to not take everything that is happening as as a fact, and that not everyone's version of events is true.

Yes gw does say not to take everything serious but argel tal must have broken his sword beacuse of the vision beacuse :

1) no other deamons could get on the ship beause the geller feildes up

2) the deamon was with them the whole time

3) if the word bearers were out of it and argel tal stabbed the ship, the sword would not have broken the way described and at least one word bearer would have noticed the damadge the sword did.

Even if Ingothel was the only daemon on the ship, he is still a powerful daemon prince. Very much capable of making the Word Bearers hallucinate into thinking they were in the past. Very much capable of making Argel Tal think he broke his swords. He probably broke them with his own powers, but, being under his influence, they thought that the strike against the generator caused it. The Daemon is perfectly capable of making it seem that way. Just like Erebus was able to make Horus see what he saw, the past and the future.

Yes but Ingethel was with the word bearers in the vision.

I think were going to have to agree to disagree

CajunMan wrote:Even if Ingothel was the only daemon on the ship, he is still a powerful daemon prince. Very much capable of making the Word Bearers hallucinate into thinking they were in the past. Very much capable of making Argel Tal think he broke his swords. He probably broke them with his own powers, but, being under his influence, they thought that the strike against the generator caused it. The Daemon is perfectly capable of making it seem that way. Just like Erebus was able to make Horus see what he saw, the past and the future.

Yes, exactly!

moonshine wrote:Yes but Ingethel was with the word bearers in the vision.

I think were going to have to agree to disagree

Or you could, you know, finally admit that you're wrong!

Since Horus' vision I've always taken it that the 'visions' were actual real. Argel Tal says he thinks he hears Horus voice and we know that in his vision Horus saw the Emperor hold back the Chaos vortex for a few moments before seemingly allowing it to take the Primarchs.

We can clearly see that the Chaos representatives in the novels have lied and manipulated to get what they want. Horus is shown the Imperium post Heresy believing that the Emperor will betray him and so he betrays the Emperor, thus bringing about the future he wanted to prevent. Argel Tal does the exact same thing, scattering the Primarchs and allowing Chaos time corrupt them in the warp.

I don't see that it necessarily follows that the visions were false, I think it could easily be that they were real, it is only the reasons why Argel Tal broke the Geller Field which are false and the reasons why Horus rebels against the Emperor which are false.

Afterall, if Argel Tal had resisted, had he chosen not to destroy the Geller Field, had the Primarchs not been swept into the warp then the Primarchs would have been raised and educated by the Emperor and not on their adoptive worlds. In terms of causality Argel Tal was creating his own past and present by ensuring it would happen even thugh he was fromt he future.

It's the warp, there is no time, you can leave it before you enter, enter briefly from your perspective (as did happen when Argel Tal and the others were possessed) and miss thousands of years in real space or drift for thousands of years in the warp but only have been gone a few minutes in the Materium.

Hi, I don't usually post on here though I do tend to read these forums a lot but I feel the need to cut in on this one.

Regardless of whether Argel Tal actually destroyed the gellar field or not I have to point out that so far in the HH series no Daemon has explicitly lied. As far as I recall there isnt a single thing they've said that is untrue. Instead, their deceit works by showing the truth but out of context or without adding in all the facts. For example in False Gods, the future that Horus is shown is exactly what the imperium does become, only instead of telling him that it is because of Horus' actions they twist it to seem as if it will happen unless the Emperor is stopped. It is by this very method that they are able to deceive the super human intelligence of the primarchs. If they showed Horus a lie, something impossible, he would have renounced them. however, by showing him the true future Horus was so horrified he didn't bother to really question the cause of this hellish 41st millenium. He is even truthfully told that the future is not set and that his actions can save the imperium, but he is encouraged to misenterpret this information in to making him believe he needs to kill the emperor to stop it. All the future and past visions are presented this way in the HH series.

Back to Argel Tal. If he didn't really destroy the gellar field then what's the benefit to making him believe that's what happened? The rest of the vision was clearly meant to sway Argel Tal to the Daemons cause but why make him think he broke the gellar field?

Maybe they got him to break it so he himself is convinced of his new allegiance.

It's possible but surely possessing him and the others was the true test of their allegiance? And also surely getting him to break it for real would be a better test of character. I mean why would Ingothel even bother working through mortals if he. could just break it himself. In fact isn't that the whole point of the Heresy? The chaos powers couldnt get to the emperor so they worked through mortals to ruin his plans. They never wanted Horus to prosper and rule the galaxy, they knew only the Emperor could do that and despite Horus failing in his personal objectives (ie getting killed by the Emp) the Chaos powers got another 10,000 years to mess with the material world.