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Maybe, but if he can get them to do something without directly controlling them then they are even further down that path than they were before.

So Ultrasmurfs are the 13th Legion... and the two missing legions are Legion 11 and Legion 2... 2+11=13... thats all I got out of this discussion...

Also worth looking at the history of the real world Legio XIII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Legion

The Legio acquired the name 'Gemina' (meaning 'twin') because it was reinforced from the veterans of other Legio's...

Maybe they do have the other legions then...

Ok a few points to counter others points,

1) Erebus lies in the service of demons (he tells Horus he is sejanus so the fact that it isnt actually a demon telling the lie is a technicality as a demon must have created the illusion for erebus to use.

2) Argel tal never actually saw a mutant primarch, the tyext reads something along the lkines of: Argel tal looked into the pod and saw something stir, a form with 2 many arms and legsa to be one human child alone. Now it is noty common knowledge that the 20th legion has 2 primarchs probably only the emperor and those inside the legion know this, I believe the "thing" argel tal saw was infact the twins alpharius and omegon that he infered were mutated cos he was unaware of the dual nature of the alpha legion primarchs.

3) I second the argument that the visions Horus and the Gal Vorbak recieve are false for several reasons a) The gellar field would surely hold back the predations of the warp preventing ingthel from bringing the gal vorbak in. b) The Emperor would detect a demon prince appearing within the confines of his palace from the other side of the planet he has a psychic power to rival the ruinous powers. c) he was in the vicinity anyway as he appears in Horus' vision.

Thank you Gogsnik and KorPhearon77, the evidence shows te visions are real.

I personally dount that we can trust any of the visions as real or an accurate version of events, Not once in the entire series so far have any of the events leading up to the dispersal of the primarchs been told from a loyalist point of view aqnd until we hear that we can't really judge.

I believe that Argel Tal didnt really break the gellar feild but Ingthel made him believe he had. Once he believed he had already taken the first step on the road to rebellion the further steps were easier ie lowering the real gellar feild on his own vessel.

One thing that dismays me about the weakness of the traitors is how ready they are to believe all the crap about the Emperors "broken promise" to the chaos gods dispite the complete absence of evidence that a compact or promise even existed, The existence of the gellar feild merely proves that the Emperor knows how dangerous the warp is. I believe the Emperor did use the warp in his creation of the primarchs but I think the "promise" comes from the neurosis of the ruinous powers believing that anything connected to the warp in any way belongs to them.

There is evdence against and for it.

I'm not convinced that the whole Laboratory is protected by a Geller Field. The incubation pods are each linked to a central column and it is from this that the Geller Field protects the pods. It could well be that the laboratory itself, where Ingethel and the Word Bearers appear is not protected, only the incubation pods around the central column.

It is worth mentioning though that while Ingethel was aboard the Orfeo's Lament and showing the Word Bearers the vision, the Orfeo's own Geller Field was active. Whether that has any bearing on things I don't know.

Ingthel boarded the vessel before it entered the warp so one assumes the gellar field was inactive at the time, I imagine that ant demon already onboard the vessel can stay there it just stops anything new from getting in

Yes the geller feild is like a brick wall for deamons, they can't pass through but can exist on either side of it beacuse it creates a bubble of realspace around the ship and deamons can exist in realspace (but only for a limited time), Ingethel was powerfull enough to stay in realspace for a long time.

I know but if the Geller Field on Terra would cause trouble for the daemon to actually be there then you'd think the Orfeo's Geller Field might pose some problems too perhaps or perhaps not.

chaos0xomega wrote:So Ultrasmurfs are the 13th Legion... and the two missing legions are Legion 11 and Legion 2... 2+11=13... thats all I got out of this discussion...

Also worth looking at the history of the real world Legio XIII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Legion

The Legio acquired the name 'Gemina' (meaning 'twin') because it was reinforced from the veterans of other Legio's...

Hey! That's an interesting point! Thank you for sharing that.

Concerning the supposed truth in this vision, I think there is no simple answer to this discussion for the moment. I thought this vision was a lie, but I'm not so sure any more... Everything is comfused in my head now I definitely hate time travel, it messes up everything...

Even the Word Bearer's aren't sure if what they saw was real, all they have are the broken swords and Xaphen saying, 'That looks real to me.'