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NAVARRO wrote:

BrookM wrote:I do wonder how big the PP rules studio is in comparison to GW's "five blokes and a kettle" approach.

Yeah, also bugs me the overall quality of PP stuff, Hardcover or softcover options on all books, fully ilustrated with some of the best illustrators behind those, a nice mag, nice cards on blisters, some cool and some not so cool minis but final balance its a very tight and good product... Color me impressed.

Their customer service is top notch, rules/books look terrific. If they have any issues, it's with the hit/miss range of their models. Sometimes they release something that looks spectacular. Sometimes they release something that looks like it would belong in the 80s. Just really all over the board.

mikhaila wrote:Privateer has an interesting customer relationship. 11 months out of the year, their customers are distributors and FLGS.

The other month, IE: GenCon, their customers are what I thought were my customers. I drop out of the feeding chain.)

if we use that reasoning, then no manufacturer (sony, microsoft, Kraft foods, new line pictures, etc) has any "customers" in the buying public unless they sell direct to them. while i agree that the buying public are ALSO your customers, that doesn't mean they're not also the customer for the manufacturer. either way, my comment was regarding their public relations with the end user, the gamer. they don't seem to have the suffer from the same image problems with them that the GW does. i'll bow to your experience regarding their apparently quirky relationships with stores and distributors.

@Mikhaila. How is PP any different from any other company that goes to GenCon?

Every booth I saw at GenCon was selling stuff that would not be for sale for months.
FFG had piles of Battles for Westeros, Dust, and Cadwallon, as well as books for the 40k RPGs that are only recently for sale.
There were Reaper minis for early or exclusive GenCon sale as well.
Same with Soda Pop.

Maybe you just have too many customers that go to GenCon?

skrulnik wrote:@Mikhaila. How is PP any different from any other company that goes to GenCon?

Every booth I saw at GenCon was selling stuff that would not be for sale for months.
FFG had piles of Battles for Westeros, Dust, and Cadwallon, as well as books for the 40k RPGs that are only recently for sale.
There were Reaper minis for early or exclusive GenCon sale as well.
Same with Soda Pop.

Maybe you just have too many customers that go to GenCon?

Those companies set aside stock specifically for GenCon.

Privateer doesn't. They empty their warehouse and take all their employees with them to GenCon.

Or at least that's the impression I got from Mikhaila's post.

So that explains what's going on with Warmachine and Hordes.

What's the reason for the delay in MonPoc updates? The last thing posted on the website for that game was a link regarding Tim Burton and the MonPoc movie back in July. The last game-related item on the website is connected to the Voltron set.

Even with the production shortages (through which I still managed to build monstrous Legion and Skorne collections), my experiences with the game, the company, and the model line under PP have exceeded my experiences with the same under GW in almost every possible way.

If PP went to highly detailed plastics, then it would be every possible way.

skrulnik wrote:@Mikhaila. How is PP any different from any other company that goes to GenCon?

Every booth I saw at GenCon was selling stuff that would not be for sale for months.
FFG had piles of Battles for Westeros, Dust, and Cadwallon, as well as books for the 40k RPGs that are only recently for sale.
There were Reaper minis for early or exclusive GenCon sale as well.
Same with Soda Pop.

Maybe you just have too many customers that go to GenCon?

They aren't in that reguard. It's a familiar complaint on retailer boards. Some companies are making it a point to let retailers have the new product at the same time as they debut it at Gencon. And it doesn't take many customers going to Gencon to have a store feel the effect. One guy can buy for 10 others.

A small difference is that companies like FFG have product for me after Gencon, and Privateer usually goes into another round of shortages. This round has continuted until now. Many items sell out and we can't get them back in for months. Older models are very hit or miss. Hordes right now is 50% out of stock at two of my distributors, and weighted heavily towards the newer models players want. Even some things basic like the everblight starter aren't available.

Matt's a great guy and runs the creative side. It's nice to have him put out a letter to gamers explaining things.His wife runs the business side. The business end of things needs to hire a few more people to pour lead and ship orders. I'd love to see Privateers numbers grow to match what GW sells. Isn't going to happen when GW has a fill rate to my store of 99.9% last year. Privateer isn't even running at 50%.

Does anyone have any info to do a real comparison between GW and PP production?

As it is, I think we are making a false comparison.
PP is a very small business compared to GW.
I do not believe that PP has anywhere near the production capabilities of GW.

GW has production facilities in the UK and in the US.
PP has their home facility in Washington, and a contract house in the UK I believe.

To make up numbers, its like PP has 2 spincasters to GW having 10+ plastic injection facilities.
Never will they get production up without a massive spending of capital, which is not how they do business.

Wherever both are now: Demand for PP products is growing faster than production capacities, demand for GW products is declining by 10% each year, so they might meet one day

It's very likely PP will have to raise capital to do a real expansion sooner or later.

They'll get laughed out of the bond market, so that leaves an angel equity investor. Else you'll feel this kind of growing pains for a long time, until growth slacks off.

I'm sure they are concerned about adding too much capacity too fast, too.

NAVARRO wrote:The skirmish type of game is also much more addictive than big armies battles.

I originally started Warmachine/Hordes years ago because it was a skirmish game, but unfortunately PP has been moving away from that though.

Really? Most of my armies still only run about 20 models, and I play 50 point games for the most part... Maybe it's just your meta?

I'm a huge fan of Privateer's presense at gen con, it's always nice to be able to meet the heads of the company first hand and talk to them about their product and they express a genuine interest in the feedback of the customers, unlike say GW who only wants to empty your wallet. I've seen Matt and Brian Snoody manning the cash registers at gencon so they are right there working with everyone else and that means a lot to me, their crew is always great and it's always staggering to see how insane their lines are. A lot of peopel sell at gencon but they can't hold a candle to how in demand the PP Stuff is and how well their staff treats their fanbase.

That said the lag with their products hitting stores shelves until september is kind of annoying as the lag tends to hit right before Origins & Gamma so it's usually a 2-3 month stretch. The lag usually doesn't effect the new hot releases but if you are looking to get core units during that period you won't able to get them.

I've also noticed a simular trend with some CCG products, L5R in particular is also geared to be present at those cons and it drains their company resources. The summer activity seems to be built heavily into the US game market which always slows the production right when demand is highest as people are off of school and typically have more free time for gaming during the summer, and by the time that the companies catch up with the lag everyone is back to their normal work and school grind.

For me it's a bit of a love hate affair as I love that they get out into the trenches at the cons and are that open to the public which is why they are growing when GW is sinking. I really dislike the summer lag but honestly I'm willing to endure that as they produce killer minis and do an incredible job with keeping rules up to date and keeping every army in the loop.

PP has been turning from the Warjacks/Warbeasts + minimal troop support game it was when it was introduced to releasing more and more troops, troop attachments, cavalry and now even huge contraptions. If you get into a game because you love most of the former, and hate most of the latter, then this development can be considered "unfortunate" since new items and their rules usually dictate a metagame. Of course a metagame can be anything as long as everybody agrees (good luck with that), but it doesn't necessarily correspond with what the company is trying to push upon you.

I guess that it makes sense from the viewpoint of a company though, as it is easier to expand by adding new gimmicks than by refreshing the ones you already have.

The last GW lead fig I got was one of the Games Day SM captains.

Now- for a limited edition fig, you'd figure they could line the mold up straight right? Hahahahhahaa no. That guys halves were probly a full .5 mm out of alignment. Which doesnt seem ot be uncommon for GW stuff- as I can recall using the files and greenstuff to fix that kind of problem often enough I have developed the skills to do so.

Now, here I am a few years into collectiong PP figs. I have probly 200 of them, and have traded off another 100 or so. And I have yet to see a single instance of a misaligned or flawed cast. The little flash that there is removes easily with a hobby knife. Never have I needed to use a file on a PP miniature.

Kudos to PP for keeping up quality even at the inconvenience. They could lower standards a bit to crank out more quantity like GW has, but theyre adhering to a standard they have set for themselves- and I respect that.

I on the other hand have only bought 30 or so Warmachine models. Three were miscast and two of the unit boxes I bought were missing significant parts. All five warjacks I've put together required significant putty work to make them fit together properly.
Conversely I've had one miscast metal model in 20+ years of buying GW models, and never had missing parts in a kit.

I guess my point is that anecdotal evidence of quality or lack of quality is pretty meaningless.

TBD wrote:PP has been turning from the Warjacks/Warbeasts + minimal troop support game it was when it was introduced to releasing more and more troops, troop attachments, cavalry and now even huge contraptions. If you get into a game because you love most of the former, and hate most of the latter, then this development can be considered "unfortunate" since new items and their rules usually dictate a metagame. Of course a metagame can be anything as long as everybody agrees (good luck with that), but it doesn't necessarily correspond with what the company is trying to push upon you.

I guess that it makes sense from the viewpoint of a company though, as it is easier to expand by adding new gimmicks than by refreshing the ones you already have.

Its also good for the customer.. You get to use your units in NEW ways without having to buy NEW units, just add a new UA. I dont see the problem with infantry and support units as jacks are still a HUGE part of the game. If you run all infantry you'll get crushed by jacks and if you run all jacks you wont have the support

Warmachine also has a great ongoing storyline which is something GW has neglected. When I play my Cygnar I like being able to use all their units.. because they are an army and armies have multiple units not just big robots

TBD wrote:PP has been turning from the Warjacks/Warbeasts + minimal troop support game it was when it was introduced to releasing more and more troops, troop attachments, cavalry and now even huge contraptions. If you get into a game because you love most of the former, and hate most of the latter, then this development can be considered "unfortunate" since new items and their rules usually dictate a metagame. Of course a metagame can be anything as long as everybody agrees (good luck with that), but it doesn't necessarily correspond with what the company is trying to push upon you.

I guess that it makes sense from the viewpoint of a company though, as it is easier to expand by adding new gimmicks than by refreshing the ones you already have.

Well I'm atracted to warbands fights, a mix of some big fellas and some infantary... So my 50pts warband is about 30 models... thats less than one my regiments for WFB. So even with respectable numbers of infantary and a bigger game of 50 I think 30minis can be called skirmish IMO. For me skirmish is neither just lots of infantary or just a few Beasts but rather a mix of both.

The game was always going to be limited in the number of warjacks and
warbeasts you could run. The Focus/Fury mechanic guarantees that.

And it's obvious that TBD hasn't played Mark II where the exact opposite is the case where you will actually see a couple warjacks on the field at a time. What he said was certainly true in Mark 1.

@TBD

I won a 35 point tournament with 8 (9 if you count beast form kromac) models just a month ago. It was a beast heavy Circle list. I placed second recently on a 25 point game with 6 models. I lost to another beast heavy list. Both tourneys had a fairly even mix of infantry heavy or jack/beast heavy lists.

I can also run infantry heavy with 35 points with 30+ models if i chose to with a trollblood list.

My point here is you DONT have to play with a large number of models if you dont want to and STILL have a fair chance at winning.

and saying that PP is turning away from its beast/jack roots is silly when you stop to think that the best models both rules and aesthetics wise tend to be beasts or jacks

PP didnt turn away from Beast/Jack games. It just offers options to people who prefer beasts/jacks or infantry.

Laughing Man wrote:Really? Most of my armies still only run about 20 models, and I play 50 point games for the most part... Maybe it's just your meta?

Players control the size of the games they play.

WM is still very much a skirmish game, particularly at the usual point values played. Granted it can push the boundries of "skirmish" if players decide to play larger point values, but again that is player choice...

15-50 point games ( the vast majority of games I see being played) can still very much be skirmish.

TBD wrote:PP has been turning from the Warjacks/Warbeasts + minimal troop support game it was when it was introduced to releasing more and more troops, troop attachments, cavalry and now even huge contraptions. If you get into a game because you love most of the former, and hate most of the latter, then this development can be considered "unfortunate" since new items and their rules usually dictate a metagame. Of course a metagame can be anything as long as everybody agrees (good luck with that), but it doesn't necessarily correspond with what the company is trying to push upon you.

I guess that it makes sense from the viewpoint of a company though, as it is easier to expand by adding new gimmicks than by refreshing the ones you already have.

If you want to run 'jack heavy then why aren't you using a dedicated 'jack caster? Each faction has one or two 'casters that are pro at running warjacks. Their spells are tailored to making the two or three focus you spend do the work of six or ten focus. Spells like Full Throttle, Guided Fire, etc. give free boosts and special attacks, which assuming you have more than two 'jacks on the field pay for themselves awfully quick.

Some 'casters can't run a 'jack to save their life (eCaine!!!!!!) but some are just amazing with a handful of their big metal murder friends.

Gr3y wrote:
If you want to run 'jack heavy then why aren't you using a dedicated 'jack caster? Each faction has one or two 'casters that are pro at running warjacks. Their spells are tailored to making the two or three focus you spend do the work of six or ten focus. Spells like Full Throttle, Guided Fire, etc. give free boosts and special attacks, which assuming you have more than two 'jacks on the field pay for themselves awfully quick.

I think it's more that the poster feels that the focus of the game has changed from the casters and warjacks to more infantry based. It's like if a version of Battletech was released that focused more on tanks.Not an expansion, but the main game. It would rub people the wrong way.

Balance wrote:
I think it's more that the poster feels that the focus of the game has changed from the casters and warjacks to more infantry based. It's like if a version of Battletech was released that focused more on tanks.Not an expansion, but the main game. It would rub people the wrong way.

I can sort of see that, but, since the days of Prime we've had the three basic types of Warcaster. Warjack casters, who are happy with lots of warjacks. Support casters, who do more for infantry than their 'jacks. And assassination 'casters, who don't do anything for anyone (eCaine!!!). Since we've gotten a grip of new Warjacks since Prime, it would be silly to think that other 'casters, who don't really want or need them, should get left in the dust. So they got new troop models. Some of whom can control Warjacks themselves.

I think everyone's focus on making warjacks the main part of
their army is a little misplaced. Warjacks are a concentrated
force in your army, just like your warcasters. But just because
people are running 2-3 warjacks surrounded by infantry doesn't
mean they're not central to your army.

Warjacks are more than just dreadnoughts and weapons
platforms. They're extensions of the warcaster's limited power.
While Mk1 worked fine without warjacks, Mk2 has made a
bunch of changes that make a strong battlegroup a part of
any planned army.

malfred wrote:I think everyone's focus on making warjacks the main part of
their army is a little misplaced. Warjacks are a concentrated
force in your army, just like your warcasters. But just because
people are running 2-3 warjacks surrounded by infantry doesn't
mean they're not central to your army.

Warjacks are more than just dreadnoughts and weapons
platforms. They're extensions of the warcaster's limited power.
While Mk1 worked fine without warjacks, Mk2 has made a
bunch of changes that make a strong battlegroup a part of
any planned army.

Agreed.

Also if one looks at the original MKI Prime rulebook you will see that it contains a fair percentage of infantry units and solos. So while people might have initiallyt thought the game was to focus primarily on warcaster & warjacks, this was true in the beginning mostly becaue the battle boxes containign warcasters and warjacks where the first release and it took a while for even the first infantry units/solos to hit the shelves. I rememebr in those early days playing battle box games for a number of months because you couldn't buy infantry even if you wanted to.

However PP has made it rather clear that they have had a game plan regarding the progression of the game(s) that pre-dates the inital release, etc. Hordes was a planned release long before any of us ever heard of it, and wasn't a sudden shift to "infantry based" game play.

Warcasters and warjacks form elite cohorts that are more akin to shock units and elite assets, not meant in any way to do the bulk of the fighting.

The fluff and force breakdowns in various PP publications makes this clear as well: A nation like Cygnar for example has many thousands of soldiers for every warcaster, etc.

In the end, as I said before the players have control over what game size they choose. If you want "small skirmish" then choose small point values or play battle box games.

One cool format is the 1-1-1 format in which you bring one unit, one UA and one solo max. plus a caster & battlegroup (to whatever points value you choose).

Also don't forget that if you just want warjack mayhem you can play Grind (the original, not the boardgame).

gamers as a lot are spolied and needy. Instead of spending so much time on forums like this whining about x, y, or z they need to be more proactive in taking advantage of the options they have available to play the game in a way more to their liking, rather then expecting a game company to accomplish the impossible task of appeasing all gamers and their highly individualized demands...

CT GAMER wrote:Also if one looks at the original MKI Prime rulebook you will see that it contains a fair percentage of infantry units and solos. So while people might have initiallyt thought the game was to focus primarily on warcaster & warjacks, this was true in the beginning mostly becaue the battle boxes containign warcasters and warjacks where the first release and it took a while for even the first infantry units/solos to hit the shelves. I rememebr in those early days playing battle box games for a number of months because you couldn't buy infantry even if you wanted to.

However PP has made it rather clear that they have had a game plan regarding the progression of the game(s) that pre-dates the inital release, etc. Hordes was a planned release long before any of us ever heard of it, and wasn't a sudden shift to "infantry based" game play.

Maybe people thought the game's focus was on Warcasters & Warjacks because that was the way Privateer very clearly advertised it.

They specifically advertised it as the small scale battle game alternative to 40K, evolving around all the coolness the Warjacks could do. The ratio of Warjack to troops was fine in the first book and maybe the second, but as the expansions came out it started sliding up to a point a lot of people weren't happy with it anymore.

I'm not even sure this was as deliberate a strategy as you think, regardless of whatever they want to make us believe, because for a while there was a lot of justified discussion about the lack or quality of the playtesting and certain armies getting favoured by the people in charge. In this case I suspect a lot of it actually had to do with a lack of direction during certain periods, and that isn't so strange considering we are dealing with a company that is/was basically still an infant. There is no shame in acknowledging that.

By the time Mk2 was announced the gamestores around here had already stopped selling the product and the game basically died about 2 years ago. Too little too late. According to some of the retailers/suppliers this was a trend all around Northern Europe at that time. Poor advertising was also blamed.
I think Privateer's situation in the US has always been very different from their European situation though, so it probably makes sense for them to spend more attention and money on promotion of the game in the US instead of a steep uphill battle with GW in Europe.

There's also some truth that a few effective, but not-quite-correct ads can really mess with the way a game is perceived. For example, the RPG 7th Sea was often described as "that pirate RPG' when it was really a fusion of a number of 'swashbuckler' adventure tropes, and the setting was somewhat similar to The Princess Bride (a weird quasi-Europe) but a bit darker, and with some aliens. But, because it got labeled as "That Pirate Game" the developers had to deal with that and had trouble doing some of the political intrigue and such they wanted to do.

TBD wrote:



They specifically advertised it as the small scale battle game alternative to 40K,

PP never advertised it as an alternative to 40K. Their initial marketing playfully advertised themselves (PP) and WM as an alternative to GW ("Plastic is for toys...", etc.).

This is a subtle but important distinction. They did not promote WM as an alternative to 40k, but their own company and it's approach to game design, model production, and attitude, and treatment of it's fan/custoemr base as an alternative to being forced to drink at the teet of GW and treatd like crap while you do so.

Thus They hoped to tap into a potential market of players/consumers that had become disenfranchised or disillusioned with GW, and they did. In fact that segment of PP's player/consumer base is sizable and also very militantly vocal on PP's forums on a regular basis. The best thing for PP is for GW to continue buisness as usual and drive more and more players into their arms.

As for it being a "skirmish game":

1. Prime MKI details games all the way up to 4 caster "apocalypse" games of 2000+ points.

2. Only the lowest type of encounter called a "duel" (350pts.) is described as a battle specifically focusing on a conflict between two warcasters and their warjacks. The other four encounter levels (Rumble, battle royale, war, and Apocalypse) all specify that troops and solos are usually present in ever increasing numbers (Prime MKI, p. 28)

3. The back cover states that the book contains "dozens of characters, units, and warjacks, so you ca build the army you desire".

4. The word "skirmish" or "skirmish game" are not to be found. In fact the game is described on the opening page of the rules section of Prime MKI as a "30mm tabletop miniatures battle game".

5. Further down the page it states "Squads of soldiers and support teams may be fielded...sometimes, huge armies with legions of soldiers take the field..."

As usual the playerbase took a lot for granted in deciding what the game was and should be, irrespective of what PP itself actaully said or intended and without knowing what PP had outlinned far in advance of release, which brings us back to my assertion that "every gamer is a whiny, needy chap who thinks he knows best what a game should be..."

Warmachine allows you to play it in a skirmish fashion (by choosing to play small point games and by nature of it's model/units activation design). The game has not fundamentally changed in this regard since it's release. If you want a skirmish experience when playing Wm then play a 15, 20, 25, 35pt. game, whatever floats your boat...

Yes more models, units and model types have appeared, but none of them are required to play, and ultimately two people decide what and how to play each time they get together for a game and choose a point value and write up an army list, etc....