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Gogsnik wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:I'm aware of this, I was refering to codex Orks where the identity of the Brainboyz isn't confirmed and is intentionally left obscure. This automatically overrides the older fluff saying that the Brainboyz regressed into snotlings.

How can something left obscure override somthing specific? The fact that it is left obscure lends more credence to the already established background, not less.

If the past background that was more specific was still cannon they woulden't have changed it at all which means they had a reason to change it and the original is no longer cannon. The fact that it's obscure and that there are multiple ideas as to what could have happened completly removes the original (not established since it's no longer cannon) background.

Given that about 90% of the current Ork fluff parallels what's known about the Old Ones and the Krork exactly it isn't a large leap that they are one and the same.

The Ork Codex doesn't mention the Old Ones at all so that's not really exact is it. As far as paralleling the Krork that isn't very hard to do seen as how all we know about the Krork is that they were 'hardy' and 'green skinned'. You can have green skinned Kroot and they're pretty hardy, maybe the Kroot are the Krork.

Hey you want to ignore the obvious that's your choice.

not alot is known about the race from that time period.

We know a fair bit about the Eldar of those times, physically they are exactly the same as modern Eldar, they haven't even evolved one little bit.

Site your source, especially since what half the race has athrophied psychic abilities so they can better survive. Adapting to better survive your environment is evolution

Just because a name changes (like how the Necrons where once the Necrontry) dosen't mean that they aren't one and the same ya know?

There's nothing to suggest that they are one and the same either, it seems a likely implication but it is far from certain, unlike with other species created and fostered by the Old Ones, like the Eldar, the K'nib and the Jokaero. The Necrontyr really aren't a great example of continuity since they aren't even a living species anymore.

The Necrontry are an example of a name changing over time and you know it. If you really think GW would mention 2 races with the same characteristics both of which where created by an incredibly intelligent race who are both masters at genetics and both dissapeared and say that it's far from certain then I'm not sure what to tell you. You keep on thinking that.

that is decsribed in detail in the background but all we know about the Krork is that they were 'hardy' and 'green skinned' (and that Krork has ork in it obviously) but beyond that we do not know how closely related the orks are to the Krork.

Again these parallels are to close to simply be coincidence especially when talking about something created by GW.

overwhelmingly large amount of parallels

That the Old Ones made the Krork and that the Brainboyz made the Orks you mean? One similarity, hardly an 'overwhelmingly large amount'.

Seriously? let's do some word association
Burna=Flamer
Slugga=Bolter
Choppa=Sword
Wierd=psychic
Brainboyz=Old Ones

Now let's look at the parallels a few of which I've already mentioned

Brainboyz:
Incredibly intelligent
Masters of genetics
Created a race called the Orks, a greenskined race that is incredibly strong in multiple ways to protect themselves
Dissapeared with no explenation as to what actually happened to them.

Old Ones:
Incredibly intelligent
Masters of genetics
Created a race called the Krork (again names change over time). A greenskin race that was incredibly hardy (I'd say a race that can repopulate upon it's own death, can transplant entire bodyparts and survive most environments can be classified as hardy)
Dissapeared with no explenation as to what actually happened to them.

Brainboyz is the ork word for Old Ones, the brainboyz are the Old Ones. Someone held a sign in front of your face that said the sky is blue would you argue that it's white

In the Ork codex it specifically states that the Brainboyz do not exist in the modern 40k universe... ...none of them are shown to be the actual result.

And, what's your point?

My point is you are saying that the Brainboyz are the snotlings based off of old fluff, based off of new fluff they are no longer deffinitivly snottlings it is just a possibility.

My point is and always has been that we do not know how orks are related to the Krork so stating the connections as fact is ludicrous because we do not know. We do know certain things about the orks origins, and on their origins we can infer certain elemnts but as to how that ties them in with the Krork no-one can say because we know almost nothing about the krork or how they might be related to modern day orks.

I know what your point is, I can read. But if you seriously think GW would mention 2 races with practically no differances and have them not be the same race just because GW hasen't made an official statement saying that then that's your choice. The rest of us are going to keep with the fact that GW intentionally made 2 races with everything in common and the only differances being time and what they're called during those time periods.

In the original background the Brainboyz were part of ork legend and it was also confirmed that it was fact as well. The latest background reiterates those legends. It doesn't mention the Old Ones or the Krork. So to say that the ork legends are just legends and that the Brainboyz are long dead, just as they always have been, doesn't tell us anything.

Ok so an Ork legend about Gatsnob the great farting so hard he made all 4 of the chaos gods pass out isn't just a legend it's true (note this isn't an actual legend). A key thing you said is in the "original" background, hate to break it to you but the original background is no longer cannon so trying to bridge how GW gas changed the fluff won't work because in terms of 40k fluff the original background dosen't exist anymore. If the weirdboyz where legend in the original background that dosen't mean that they where once legend and now are proven as real in the 40k universe.

So Like I said I think that the Old Ones created the Orks in a lab of some sort where they combined the traits that they wanted and then probably allowed them to populate in the way they where created to on worlds created by the Old Ones ergo there is no Ork homeworld.

That may well be your theory but it doesn't really add to the discussion does it when we have actual background to chew over.

Background that is no longer cannon and so won't be accurate but go ahead keep on chewing, especially since I think your the only one chewing that particular piece of food.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:If the past background that was more specific was still cannon they woulden't have changed it at all which means they had a reason to change it and the original is no longer cannon. The fact that it's obscure and that there are multiple ideas as to what could have happened completly removes the original (not established since it's no longer cannon) background.

It's 'canon' by the way, not cannon. It hasn't changed though, the omission of the definitive statement does not deny that statement.

Site your source

Xenology.

The Necrontry are an example of a name changing over time and you know it.

The Necrontyr were a living, biological lifeform. The Necrons are deathless, metal constructs. It's a bit more profound than a mere name change.

Burna=Flamer
Slugga=Bolter
Choppa=Sword
Wierd=psychic
Brainboyz=Old Ones

That's a completely fallacious argument.

I'd say a race that can repopulate upon it's own death, can transplant entire bodyparts and survive most environments can be classified as hardy

And where exactly do you get this from with regards to the Krork? None of that appears in Codex Necrons. All we know about the Krork for millionth time is that they are 'hardy' and 'green skinned'.

Brainboyz is the ork word for Old Ones, the brainboyz are the Old Ones.

You are asserting a fact based on anecdotal evidence which by your own admission is obscure and with multiple meanings. Using the precedents established in the original background it is just as likely to say that the Old Ones created the Krork who were the Brainboyz (or that the Brainboyz descended from the Krork in some way) and subsequently created the orks and gretchin. The idea of the Brainboyz having been destroyed by a plague (the implication being that this was the Ensalver Plague) does not point toward the Old Ones either as we know from Codex Necrons that, 'For the Old Ones, this was the final disaster as the Ensalvers took control of their minions.' You will note that the Codex says 'their minions' not the Old Ones themselves. I've said it before, that we know nothing about the krork other than that they were 'hardy' and 'green skinned' that leaves an endless set of possibilities but we do know that the Old Ones increasingly made the young races more psychic to repel the C'tan, it follows then that the Krork could have highly psychic and this lead to their downfall at the hands, or rather tentacles, of the Enslavers which still allows for the Brainboyz to have been mature snotlings, highly psychic creatures who constructed their own slave warriors and servants; the orks and gretchin.

My point is you are saying that the Brainboyz are the snotlings based off of old fluff, based off of new fluff they are no longer deffinitivly snottlings it is just a possibility.

And you are asserting that the Brainboyz were the Old Ones based on the very vaguest implications when it is just a possibility.

I know what your point is, I can read. But if you seriously think GW would mention 2 races with practically no differances and have them not be the same race just because GW hasen't made an official statement saying that then that's your choice. The rest of us are going to keep with the fact that GW intentionally made 2 races with everything in common and the only differances being time and what they're called during those time periods.

It isn't a fact, you can only infer from the implications in the background. Your assertion that there are 'practically no differences' is incredibly hyperbolic, the only things in common between the krork and the orks are 'hardy', 'green skinned' and no fear of death; not that orks relish the idea of dieing it has to be said. All we have to go on for the Krork is six words from half a sentence in Codex Necrons and one more sentence that just says they escaped the Nightbringer's boon, you're making a whole lot 'facts' out of not very much.

the original background is no longer cannon

It's all 'canon' unless specifically re-written. By your logic just becasue we haven't heard of the Forbidden Fortress for a while that musn't be true anymore either. Nonsense.

Background that is no longer cannon and so won't be accurate but go ahead keep on chewing, especially since I think your the only one chewing that particular piece of food.

It is still canon, the only thing we don't have in the latest Codex Orks is an explicit acknowledgement but the idea is still canon, as I say, far more recent than the Krork. In any case, it's far more valid than you saying you reckon.

Well I'm not gonna keep beating a dead horse that's been rotting for a long time so think what you want, the rest of us will go on knowing that GW woulden't mention 2 "races" with everything in common and not have them be the same race. We'll also realize that if old fluff said that the Brainboyz where the snotlings and the new fluff says that they could have turned into snotlings then the old fluff is no longer cannon (happy now?) because the definitive answer as to what the Brainboyz where has been replaced with a mystery and multiple options as to what could have happened to them.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:everything in common

I don't dispute that the Krork are the likely ancestors of the orkoid race and never have. What I do dispute is that the Brainboyz have to be the Old Ones when the weight of evidence is against that conclusion. Even so I still don't know why you keep utilising this hyperbolic 'everything in common' when we know so little about the Krork. All we can difinitively say about what the Krork and orks have in common is that they are 'hardy' which isn't a descriptor limited to orks, 'green skinned' and with no fear of death. It seems likely that we are meant to infer that the Krork have some relationship to the orks but that hardly qualifies as 'everything in common' as what they do have in common isn't much. For all we know the Krork could have been a highly advanced and sophisticated species and the orks are their degnerate inheritors, then again, considering the last ditch effot that the Krork were they could have been barely sentient beasts with poweful gestalt psychic powers; they are linked in Codex Necrons with the creation of the Jokaero, who, despite their proficiency at replicating technology are actually quite bestial and simplisitc creatures. There is no reason to assume that the Krork were more than this either.

cannon (happy now?)

It is spelled 'canon' with one 'n'.

I always assumed that the Brainboyz were the Old Ones, but the Brainboyz-Snotlings link was just Imperial Propaganda.

@Gogsnik: I have to say thank you, you just proved me right.

Necron codex page 28th page 6th paragraph

Of all the young races, only the Krork escaped the Nightbringer's boon, their race being spared the fear of death.

Now it is well known and you said it yourself that the Orks that do not fear death. Now the above quote says that there is only one race that dosen't fear death which are the Krork, now since there is only one race that dosen't fear death that means that the Krork and the Ork are 2 names for the same race. And if you need more proof here is another quote the first of which was made by the Deciever some time after his awakening. The second and 3rd quotes establish that the Orks where around before the Deciever went into stasis and again that the Orks are just the current name for the Krork.

Necron codex page 30 Excerpt from Deus Ex Machanicus paragraph 2

You can't imagine my surprise on finding your kind and the Krork scattered everywhere

Necron codex page 4 paragraph 2

For example, there is Mankinds belief that the Eldar and the Orks represent the oldest races in the galaxy. And yes, these races have been amongst the stars for millions of years, long before humanity emerged as the dominant species on thier own homeworld

Necron codex page 4 paragrapgh 2

The Orks do not recall such things, their viewpoint is firmly rooted in the present and they have no care for the past

Necron codex page 26 paragraph 5

Most proficient of these horrors were the Enslavers, beings whose ability to dominate the Young Races and create their own portals with transmuted psykers brought them forth in even greater numbers. For the Old Ones, this was the final disaster as the Enslavers took controle of their minions. The Pandoras Box unleased by the Young Races finally scattered the last of the Old Ones and broke their power forever

Ork codex page 7 paragraph 6

Some Ork legends tell of a great plague that lasted for many centuries, causing the Brainboyz to dwindle and eventually die out altogether

Given that the incident of the Enslavers is known as the Enslaver Plague this is yet more evidence that the Brainboyz and Old ones are one and the same.

Ork codex page 7 paragraph 5

They speak of a legendary caste of greenskins who created the Orks of today as a warrior race to protect their own.

Ork codex page 7 paragraph 5

The Runtherds refer to the mysterious forefathers of the Orks as Brainboyz

Now since we've established that the Orks and the Krork are the same race and the above quotes state that the Brainboyz created the Orks (aka the Krork) and yet we know that the Krork (aka Orks) where created by the Old Ones we can put 2 and 2 together and know that Brainboyz is the name that the Orks have for their creators which is exactly what I have said this entire time.

So just to recap the Old Ones are the Brainboyz and therefore the Krork and the Ork are the same race. And since you have never denied that the Krork and the Ork are the same race and since there has never been any mentioning of either the Ork or the Kork being created by multiple races (which would be the case if the Brainboyz and Old Ones where seperate, but they aren't) then you agree that according to recent canon fluff taken directly from the codices that the Old Ones are in fact the same as the Brainboyz.

What was it you said about the weight of evidence being against Brainboyz being the old Old Ones?

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:...only one race that dosen't fear death which are the Krork...

Snotlings are orkoids too and as with all orkoids would not have a fear of death, establishing that snotlings and by extension their Brainboy ancestors would not have feared death.

You can't imagine my surprise on finding your kind and the Krork scattered everywhere

Since the Brainboyz were snotlings and snotlings still exist then the Deceiver's statement that, 'the Krork are scattered everywhere' is entirely congruant with the already established background. Would a being like the Deceiver truly care to differentiate between the various sub-species of a race anyway?

For example, there is Mankinds belief...

Which establishes what humans believe to be true not what is actually true.

Given that the incident of the Enslavers is known as the Enslaver Plague this is yet more evidence that the Brainboyz and Old ones are one and the same.

As I have already pointed out to you the Enslaver Plague did not affect the Old Ones directly, it affected their minions. The new information from Codex Orks therefore categorically prooves that the Brainboyz could not have been the Old Ones, as only their minions were affected.

Some Ork legends tell of a great plague that lasted for many centuries, causing the Brainboyz to dwindle and eventually die out altogether

For the Old Ones, this was the final disaster as the Enslavers took control of their minions.

which would be the case if the Brainboyz and Old Ones where seperate

Not at all since the Brainboyz were in fact orkoids themselves there is only one race; the orks and gretchin are distinct sub-species true but there is only one race.

then you agree that according to recent canon fluff taken directly from the codices that the Old Ones are in fact the same as the Brainboyz.

I do not although previously I had only seen the idea of the snotlings as being the descendants of the Brainboyz to be a possible truth given the wording of the current Codex Orks but thanks to you we can now see that, given the wording of both Codex Orks and Codex Necrons taken in conjunction then the older background really does hold true, thanks for that

Gogsnik wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:...only one race that dosen't fear death which are the Krork...

Snotlings are orkoids too and as with all orkoids would not have a fear of death, establishing that snotlings and by extension their Brainboy ancestors would not have feared death.

And this has what relevance since Snotlings are no longer the Brainboyz in fluff. Or the fact that the statement dosen't say "orkoids" (since Krork and Orks are the same) it says Orks. So what you said has no relevance in disproving that the Old Ones and Brainboyz are the same.

You can't imagine my surprise on finding your kind and the Krork scattered everywhere

Since the Brainboyz were snotlings and snotlings still exist then the Deceiver's statement that, 'the Krork are scattered everywhere' is entirely congruant with the already established background. Would a being like the Deceiver truly care to differentiate between the various sub-species of a race anyway?

Brainboyz are not snotlings despite what you think, and trying to interpret an official codex quote into what a C'tan would and would not do is completly pointless and has absolutly no relevance especially since you've decided to ignore specific quotes that support eachother. I'll cover your belief that the Brainboyz are the Snotlings in a minute.

For example, there is Mankinds belief...

Which establishes what humans believe to be true not what is actually true.

I love how you didn't quote the entire thing considering the 2nd sentence of my quote directly from the codex (which is the sentence that establishes that the Orks have been around for millenia) isn't stated from the point of view of Mankind but from a narrarators point of view.

Given that the incident of the Enslavers is known as the Enslaver Plague this is yet more evidence that the Brainboyz and Old ones are one and the same.

As I have already pointed out to you the Enslaver Plague did not affect the Old Ones directly, it affected their minions. The new information from Codex Orks therefore categorically prooves that the Brainboyz could not have been the Old Ones, as only their minions were affected.

Some Ork legends tell of a great plague that lasted for many centuries, causing the Brainboyz to dwindle and eventually die out altogether

You say that the Brainboyz can't be the Old Ones because the Enslaver Plague enfected the Old Ones minions and are making the implication that the plague which caused the Brainboyz to die out attacked them directly. Do me a favor, look through the ver last section of the above quote and let me know where it says that the plague that caused the Brainboyz to die out actually affected them physically.

Because by reading it all it says is that the plague caused them to dwindle and die out not that it was the plague that killed them. Oh and if the Brainboyz died out how could they regress into snotlings I wonder? I bet you're gonna come back and say that by becoming stupid the snotlings where no longer the Brainboyz and so metaphorically the Brainboyz "died out".

which would be the case if the Brainboyz and Old Ones where seperate

Not at all since the Brainboyz were in fact orkoids themselves there is only one race; the orks and gretchin are distinct sub-species true but there is only one race.

Do me yet another favor, go through the Ork codex and tell me where it says that the Brainboyz where orkoids. And if you're basing it off of the old fluff then I'll adress the invalid nature of that belief once again in a minute.

then you agree that according to recent canon fluff taken directly from the codices that the Old Ones are in fact the same as the Brainboyz.

I do not although previously I had only seen the idea of the snotlings as being the descendants of the Brainboyz to be a possible truth given the wording of the current Codex Orks but thanks to you we can now see that, given the wording of both Codex Orks and Codex Necrons taken in conjunction then the older background really does hold true, thanks for that

Please tell me how exactly anything I said proves that the Snotlings and the Brainboyz are one and the same (disgarding your belief that the old background is still valid). Oh and when you're quoting me quote everything that was said, ignoring certain bits here and there dosen't help your case it makes it look like you're either avoid them or have no answer to them.

Now let's adress the idea that the old background stating that the Brainboyz regressed into the Snotlings is still canon. Besides the fact that the up to date codex says that the Brainboyz died out and that a race which is dead cannot regress into anything other then corpses, there is the fact that by introducing multiple possibilities as to what might have happened to the Brainboyz and not confirming a single one as what happened above the other possibilities this automatically discounts the older background which had a deffinitive answer as to what happened to them.

In other words, if the old background saying the Old Ones regressed into snotlings was still canon then why would GW even introduce other possibilities as to what happened and never state one as being more likely unless GW intentionally wanted to replace the old background with a more obscure background which is exactly what they did. This means that the recent background which has more mystery to it has replaced the old background that was more definitive.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Brain_Boyz

from the old ones entree: The Old Ones are supposed to be identical to the Brain Boyz, the creators of the Orks.

Everything I have ever read makes them out to be one and the same, only saying that they might have evolved into the degenerate snotlings, or died out. canon has changed a lot for the orks, like in their life cycle, they used to be born, train for a while, fight for several years and then go off to mate.

I know little about Orks.

I would suggest that the latest codex and books take precedence over earlier material.

However it should be kept in mind that all fluff is a mixture of legend, lies, myth, propaganda, supposition, and a bit of genuine history.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Brainboyz are not snotlings despite what you think

Neither can it be disproven that snotlings are not the remnants of the Brainboyz since Codex Orks provides multiple possibilities. The snotlings may be the last remnants then again they might not be.

Do me a favor, look through the ver last section of the above quote and let me know where it says that the plague that caused the Brainboyz to die out actually affected them physically.

Why should it matter if it affected them physically? For that matter, Codex Orks only says plague, it does not mention the Enslavers so inferring that by using the word plague it means the Enslaver Plague forces certain conclusions. The process by which Enslavers destroy their victims is very physical indeed, the way in which three Ensalver's turn their victim's body into a warp gate is by altering its body chemistry. The psychic part of the Enslaver attack is that they use psychic emenations to locate a victim, psykers being easier to find than non-psykers obviously and then some kind of biomancy to alter the victim's body chemistry.

Because by reading it all it says is that the plague caused them to dwindle and die out not that it was the plague that killed them. Oh and if the Brainboyz died out how could they regress into snotlings I wonder? I bet you're gonna come back and say that by becoming stupid the snotlings where no longer the Brainboyz and so metaphorically the Brainboyz "died out".

If you are going to argue semnatically that a plague causing a thing to die out does not mean that it killed that thing then semantically, a race of beings whose existence is predicated upon them existing in one state but are reduced to living in another state whereby they are no longer classed as the same beings then yes, that would be true, they would have died out.

However the possibility of the Brainboyz dieing out because of a plague has nothing to do with snotlings. If we were toinfer that in this case plague means the Enslaver Plague then it establishes instead that the Brainboyz were minions of the Old Ones and therefore could not have been Old Ones. It would establish instead that the Krork were the Brainboyz and that they died out as a result of the Enslaver Plague. This still allows then for the Brainboyz to be the creators of the orks and gretchin, it only changes the cause of why they died out and that snotlings are not immature Brainboyz. In any case, however you wish to interpret it and however you wish to see the Brainboyz, it categorically prooves that the Brainboyz were not the Old Ones but their minions which is the salient point.

Do me yet another favor, go through the Ork codex and tell me where it says that the Brainboyz where orkoids. And if you're basing it off of the old fluff then I'll adress the invalid nature of that belief once again in a minute.

It is predicated upon the recent background and also upon the older Codex Necrons background. We have two possibilities about the Brainboyz fate which might affect the possibility of snotlings being immature Brainboyz but it changes nothing about the certainty that the Brainboyz were orkoids. If we choose option one, then the Brainboyz were snotlings ergo orkoid. If we choose option two then the Brainboyz were the Krork, the minions of the Old Ones who died out as a result of the Enslaver Plague, ergo orkoid.

Please tell me how exactly anything I said proves that the Snotlings and the Brainboyz are one and the same.

Fair enough, nothing you said was useful to proove that the snotlings are the last remnants of the Brainboyz but the manner in which you presented the quotes from Codex Necrons and Codex Orks was useful in establishing beyond doubt that only the minions of the Old Ones were affected by the Enslaver Plague and therefore if the Brainboyz died out as a result of the Enslaver Plague they must have been minions of the Old Ones and therefore not Old Ones themselves.

...everything that was said... ...dose... ...help your case...

*joke*

Now let's adress the idea that the old background stating that the Brainboyz regressed into the Snotlings is still canon.

Okay, let's.

Besides the fact that the up to date codex says that the Brainboyz died out and that a race which is dead cannot regress into anything other then corpses there is the fact that by introducing multiple possibilities as to what might have happened to the Brainboyz and not confirming a single one as what happened above the other possibilities this automatically discounts the older background which had a deffinitive answer as to what happened to them.

It doesn't say that the Brainboyz died out, it only postulates that as one possible fate, they may not have died out either. But I shall concede that there is no definitive right or wrong answer as to the fate of the Brainboyz but it does establish two facts whichever possibility is used. Firstly that orks speak of them as a legendary green skin caste and secondly that they were not the Old Ones.

In other words, if the old background saying the Old Ones regressed into snotlings

It doesn't mention the Old Ones at all in fact, it says that the Brainboyz were enhanced snotlings not Old Ones.

why would GW even introduce other possibilities as to what happened and never state one as being more likely unless GW intentionally wanted to replace the old background with a more obscure background which is exactly what they did.

It may be ambiguous because the next edition of Codex Necrons may no-longer support parts of the background from the older Codex Necrons but not wanting to make these changes obvious via the backdoor have made the possible origins of the orks ambiguous so that when the newer Codex Necrons comes out it will be a surprise for us. The War in Heaven and the 'Old Ones/C'tan did it' explanation has been contentious within the gaming community, Games Workshop may well be responding to that by re-writing the Necron background but naturally they won't want to give away hints until closer to the release date. It's anyone's guess.

Gogsnik wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Brainboyz are not snotlings despite what you think

Neither can it be disproven that snotlings are not the remnants of the Brainboyz since Codex Orks provides multiple possibilities. The snotlings may be the last remnants then again they might not be.

That's funny, you where adamant that the older background stating that the Brainboyz absolutly turned into snotlings was still canon and now you're changning your tune. So every argument you've made in this entire thread which had that idea as it's cornerstone is now false.

Do me a favor, look through the ver last section of the above quote and let me know where it says that the plague that caused the Brainboyz to die out actually affected them physically.

Why should it matter if it affected them physically? For that matter, Codex Orks only says plague, it does not mention the Enslavers so inferring that by using the word plague it means the Enslaver Plague forces certain conclusions. The process by which Enslavers destroy their victims is very physical indeed, the way in which three Ensalver's turn their victim's body into a warp gate is by altering its body chemistry. The psychic part of the Enslaver attack is that they use psychic emenations to locate a victim, psykers being easier to find than non-psykers obviously and then some kind of biomancy to alter the victim's body chemistry.

Hahaha I hope I'm not the only one who sees how many times you go back on what you say, you said that the Brainboyz coulden't be the Old Ones because the Enslaver Plague didn't effect the Old Ones directly it effected their servants. By saying that you are implying that the plague mentioned in codex Orks that wiped out the Brainboyz effected them personally (and physically) and not their servants (the orks). Yet codex Orks never says that the Plague which killed the Brainboyz actually affected them personally it says that it caused them to dwindle and die the same way that the Enslaver Plague caused the Old Ones to die out. And given that in GW fluff there have only been 2 plagues 1 of which caused a highly intelligent race to die out while the second was the Plague of Unbelief and happened much later in the 40k timeline.

Because by reading it all it says is that the plague caused them to dwindle and die out not that it was the plague that killed them. Oh and if the Brainboyz died out how could they regress into snotlings I wonder? I bet you're gonna come back and say that by becoming stupid the snotlings where no longer the Brainboyz and so metaphorically the Brainboyz "died out".

If you are going to argue semnatically that a plague causing a thing to die out does not mean that it killed that thing then semantically, a race of beings whose existence is predicated upon them existing in one state but are reduced to living in another state whereby they are no longer classed as the same beings then yes, that would be true, they would have died out.

Nice try trying to turn my sarcasm into an argument but when it says that the Brainboyz died out it means that they where dead. Not that they became a differant species altogether, not that they regressed into another species. When it says that they died
it means that they died.

However the possibility of the Brainboyz dieing out because of a plague has nothing to do with snotlings. If we were toinfer that in this case plague means the Enslaver Plague then it establishes instead that the Brainboyz were minions of the Old Ones and therefore could not have been Old Ones.

Hahaha you're starting to fish for responses, by correctly infering that the Plague which killed the Brainboyz is the same Plague that killed the Old Ones it does not prove that the Brainboyz where the old ones minions because none of the Old Ones minions died out due to the plague. And since the only race that completely died out due to the plague where the Old Ones (aka the Brainboyz) then it istablishes that the Brainboyz did not turn into snotlings because snotlings are a living race.

It would establish instead that the Krork were the Brainboyz and that they died out as a result of the Enslaver Plague.

Wooops, someone forgot the quotes I put which establish that the Orks and Krork are the same species and given that the Orks are still alive and flourishing in the modern 40k universe they can't have died out due to a plague. So nope sorry this ones wrong to, the krork where not the brainboyz the Old Ones where.

This still allows then for the Brainboyz to be the creators of the orks and gretchin, it only changes the cause of why they died out and that snotlings are not immature Brainboyz. In any case, however you wish to interpret it and however you wish to see the Brainboyz, it categorically prooves that the Brainboyz were not the Old Ones but their minions which is the salient point.

Actually your point throughout this entire thing has been that older fluff is still canon and given that I've already proved you wrong on that and you admitted it that's closed and shut. Plus I just proved you wrong that the Krork where the Brainboyz, I mean a quote by the Deciever in the modern 40k universe (since it's know that he awoke only recently in the 40k timeline) about how the Krork are scattered everywhere pretty much butchers your idea that the Krork where the Brainboyz and died out due to the plague because yet again if a race died out they woulden't be present in the 40k universe.

Do me yet another favor, go through the Ork codex and tell me where it says that the Brainboyz where orkoids. And if you're basing it off of the old fluff then I'll adress the invalid nature of that belief once again in a minute.

It is predicated upon the recent background and also upon the older Codex Necrons background. We have two possibilities about the Brainboyz fate which might affect the possibility of snotlings being immature Brainboyz but it changes nothing about the certainty that the Brainboyz were orkoids. If we choose option one, then the Brainboyz were snotlings ergo orkoid. If we choose option two then the Brainboyz were the Krork, the minions of the Old Ones who died out as a result of the Enslaver Plague, ergo orkoid.

"It is predicated upon the recent background and also upon the older codex necrons background". You know I own every codex for multiple editions of warhammer including the 2 you mention. No where in the Ork codex does it say that the Brainboyz (aka the Old Ones) where orkoids (having green skin does not make you an orkoid) and no where in the Necron codex does it give any physical description of the Old Ones so I'm wondering what exactly you're reading that says they where orkoids. I have both codices in front of me so am willing to look up a page. And the Krork=Brainboyz thing is already wrong as I've shown above so that whole section is pointless.

Please tell me how exactly anything I said proves that the Snotlings and the Brainboyz are one and the same.

Fair enough, nothing you said was useful to proove that the snotlings are the last remnants of the Brainboyz but the manner in which you presented the quotes from Codex Necrons and Codex Orks was useful in establishing beyond doubt that only the minions of the Old Ones were affected by the Enslaver Plague and therefore if the Brainboyz died out as a result of the Enslaver Plague they must have been minions of the Old Ones and therefore not Old Ones themselves.

Ah this is wrong, see the minions of the Old Ones where aflicted by the Enslaver Plague which then affected the Old Ones causing them to die out because their minions where no longer under there controle and could not protect them. No where is it ever mentioned that the minions of the Old Ones died out and since we've already established that the Krork and Ork are one and the same and that they are still alive then this proves that the Brainboys where in fact the Old Ones (I wonder how many times I'm going to have to say this to you).

Now let's adress the idea that the old background stating that the Brainboyz regressed into the Snotlings is still canon.

Okay, let's.

Besides the fact that the up to date codex says that the Brainboyz died out and that a race which is dead cannot regress into anything other then corpses there is the fact that by introducing multiple possibilities as to what might have happened to the Brainboyz and not confirming a single one as what happened above the other possibilities this automatically discounts the older background which had a deffinitive answer as to what happened to them.

It doesn't say that the Brainboyz died out, it only postulates that as one possible fate, they may not have died out either. But I shall concede that there is no definitive right or wrong answer as to the fate of the Brainboyz but it does establish two facts whichever possibility is used. Firstly that orks speak of them as a legendary green skin caste and secondly that they were not the Old Ones.

True it only gives the idea that the Brainboyz died out as a Ork legend. But let's look at the options, 1 The Brainboyz died out due to a plague 2 They regressed into snotlings or 3 they regressed into snotlings because the Orks overthrew them. Now since the GW changed the old fluff as to what happened to the BB into what it is now I doubt that they regressed into snotlings because if they did GW would have had no reason to change the fluff so this options is just GWs way of keeping in touch with older fluff.

The 3rd option that they regressed into snotlings because the Orks rebeled is just the writers putting a representation of the Orks mentality that they won't be controlled into the book. This leaves the third option which strongly coincides with the fluff of the Old Ones and what happened to them. But in the end these are all based on Ork legends and it is never said as to what actually happened to them, but I for one believe that a company like GW who has created this entire fictional universe would have the foresight not to mention two groups of beings which have everything in common and not have them be the same race.

why would GW even introduce other possibilities as to what happened and never state one as being more likely unless GW intentionally wanted to replace the old background with a more obscure background which is exactly what they did.

It may be ambiguous because the next edition of Codex Necrons may no-longer support parts of the background from the older Codex Necrons but not wanting to make these changes obvious via the backdoor have made the possible origins of the orks ambiguous so that when the newer Codex Necrons comes out it will be a surprise for us. The War in Heaven and the 'Old Ones/C'tan did it' explanation has been contentious within the gaming community, Games Workshop may well be responding to that by re-writing the Necron background but naturally they won't want to give away hints until closer to the release date. It's anyone's guess.

Oh so you have insight into what GW is going to be writing in their fluff huh? you ought to make a thread detailing what you know as I'm sure there are many people who would love to know what GW is changing fluff into.

In the meantime we're going to go with the fact that GW changed and older more definitive background into a recent more ambiguous background because they no longer wanted the older background to be canon.

So what all have we established.
1. That the fluff saying that the Brainboyz deffinitly turned into snotlings is no longer canon and so every argument you made based off of that fluff still being canon now has no grounds.
2. The Krork did not die out and are now known as the Orks as is proven thanks to the Deciever.
3. Because the Krork and the Ork are 2 names for the same thing this rules out that the Krork where the Orks creators and proves that they where not the Brainboyz.
4. Given that the Old Ones/Brainboyz are both described as highly intelligent and masters of genetics, that they both created a hardy greenskinned race to protect themselves, the even the mentioning of their downfalls being the result of a plague connects the 2 and that there is no one else who could match the facts we know about the Brainboyz as closely as the Old Ones (in fact I have never seen any differances between the fluff for the 2 that is still canon) we know that the Brainboyz and the Old Ones are one and the same.

So you first argued that The Old Ones coulden't have been the Brainboyz because the Brainboyz turned into snotlings while the Old Ones died out. Well we both know that isn't fluff anymore so that's out the window.

Then you tried arguing that the Brainboyz coulden't have been the Old Ones and where actually the Krork who died out due to the Enslaver Plague. This argument has no grounds since the Necron Codex proves that the Krork and the Ork are the same race whose name has just changed over time and since the Old Ones died out and the Orks (who are the Krork) are still alive then they coulden't have died out. Plus you seemed to have forgotten that the description of the Brainboyz has them being a small race that needed to create others to protect themselves but the description of the Krork is that they where a hardy greenskinned warrior race created to protect the Old Ones.

I'm curious to see who you try and make the Brainboyz into next. I'm also curious as to how long you're gonna try to ignore what's right in your face.

You can argue all you want about what happened to the old ones and the brainboyz but the way it is written suggest that we will never ever know, it's just a mystery in 40k like the two missing legions and even though some people claim to know what has happened there is no answer, gw never write anything down and just hint it in. This lets everyon come up with their own conclusion and now I doubt gw knows what happened to the brainboyz, they MIGHT have reverted into snotlings or they MIGHT have died out but these are just scenarios that COULD have happened. We will never know what happened and thats how it's supposed to be.

And yet we aren't arguing about what happened to the Old Ones we are arguing about wether or not the Old Ones and Brainboyz are the same race. And point in fact codex necrons does say what happens the the Old Ones I have the quote above, it's the fate of the WHFB Old Ones which is left unknown and since the WHFB Old Ones are not the same as the 40k Old Ones what you just said
isn't true we know exactly what happened to the 40k Old Ones.

sorry about that, I havn't read the argument, it got boring quite quickly but my point still stands, we will never know if the old ones and brainboyz are the same things. Personnaly I think think the brainboyz were not the old ones, surely if the old ones could predict the fall of the eldar they would predict the orks overthrowing them and even though they sound the same there is just not enough information to compare the two race, its like comparing jack russel teriers to king chrles spaniels, with basic information they sound very similar but if you look closely they are quite different. Unfortunatly there is not enough information to look closely at brainboyz and old ones.

moonshine wrote:sorry about that, I havn't read the argument, it got boring quite quickly but my point still stands, we will never know if the old ones and brainboyz are the same things.

And so the fact that they have everything in common just happens to be a coincidence, especially when GW makes very few coincidences in their fiction that aren't intentional.

Personnaly I think think the brainboyz were not the old ones, surely if the old ones could predict the fall of the eldar they would predict the orks overthrowing them

There is no fluff that the Old Ones predicted the fall of the Eldar and the idea that the Orks overthrew the Brainboyz is a theory about what could have happened not what actually did.

and even though they sound the same there is just not enough information to compare the two race, its like comparing jack russel teriers to king chrles spaniels, with basic information they sound very similar but if you look closely they are quite different.

how so? I'm interested in hearing what these differances are.

Unfortunatly there is not enough information to look closely at brainboyz and old ones.

Actually there is quiet a bit of information, pretty much all of it has been discussed in what you didn't read

Well I will start with the diffrences betwean king charles spaniels and jack russels. jack russels were bred to protect farmers lands from rabbits and pests whilst king chrles spaniels were just fashion acsessories in he 16th century. jack russels are bred to eat as little food as possible and king charles spaniels are not, I could go on for hours but I think I have made my point. Anyway I don't think there is enough information on the old ones and brainboyz a few pages in the necron dex and a paragrapgh in the ork codex, there is just not enough official information, the problem is people jump to conclusion when they read somthing on lexicanicum and other forums you need to ask yourself where the information is coming from before creating a conclusion . Anyway I always thought the old ones gave the eldar the webway but it would appear I was wrong. It is obvious that the orks creators did not intend to be overthrown and it was probably a mistake or somthing beacuse the orks would not know what to do if they had no orders from creators if all there creators died out.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:That's funny, you where adamant that the older background stating that the Brainboyz absolutly turned into snotlings was still canon and now you're changning your tune. So every argument you've made in this entire thread which had that idea as it's cornerstone is now false.

Absolutely not. You have been adamant that the Brainboyz are the Old Ones and I have argued that that is not the case.

Hahaha I hope I'm not the only one who sees how many times you go back on what you say, you said that the Brainboyz coulden't be the Old Ones because the Enslaver Plague didn't effect the Old Ones directly it effected their servants.

That is what I have said because that is what Codex Necrons says, '...the Enslavers took control of their minions.'

By saying that you are implying that the plague mentioned in codex Orks that wiped out the Brainboyz effected them personally (and physically) and not their servants (the orks).

It is only a possibility that the Brainboyz might have died out because of a plague. Codex Orks seems quite emphatic upon whom the plague had an affect however so I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse here but you're really tying yourself in knots. Codex Orks states, 'Some Ork legends tell of a great plague that lasted for many centuries, causing the Brainboyz to dwindle and eventually die out altogether.' That seems to me to very clearly say that it was the Brainboyz who were affected by the plague.

Yet codex Orks never says that the Plague which killed the Brainboyz actually affected them personally it says that it caused them to dwindle and die the same way that the Enslaver Plague caused the Old Ones to die out.

Codex Necrons says that the Enslaver Plague affected the Old Ones minions. The Old Ones were not destroyed in any way by the Enslavers. We don't know what happened to the Old Ones and Xenology hints that at least one of the Old Ones is still out there. Codex Necrons says that the Old Ones civilisation collapsed, as a result of their minions being taken over by Enslavers, but the ultimate fate of the Old Ones is not known. So you are wrong to assert that the Enslaver Plague caused the Old Ones to die out as it simply didn't, it affected their minions only.

Hahaha you're starting to fish for responses, by correctly infering that the Plague which killed the Brainboyz is the same Plague that killed the Old Ones it does not prove that the Brainboyz where the old ones minions because none of the Old Ones minions died out due to the plague. And since the only race that completely died out due to the plague where the Old Ones (aka the Brainboyz) then it istablishes that the Brainboyz did not turn into snotlings because snotlings are a living race.

Wrong, for the reasons outlined already.

Actually your point throughout this entire thing has been that older fluff is still canon and given that I've already proved you wrong on that and you admitted it that's closed and shut. Plus I just proved you wrong that the Krork where the Brainboyz, I mean a quote by the Deciever in the modern 40k universe (since it's know that he awoke only recently in the 40k timeline) about how the Krork are scattered everywhere pretty much butchers your idea that the Krork where the Brainboyz and died out due to the plague because yet again if a race died out they woulden't be present in the 40k universe.

More of the obtuseness.

There are only two possibilites both of which engender their own individual circumstances, you can't mix and match them. One has no bearing on the other and vice versa and depending on which one you choose to give more credence to it alters the way in which the recent Codex Orks background relates to other background material.

If the Brainboyz were affected by the Enslaver Plague that means they were minions of the Old Ones, ergo the Krork. According to the current Codex Orks the Brainboyz took steps to preserve their knowledge in their servants the orks. This means that the Krork, minions of the Old Ones were steadily wiped out by the Enslavers and not their creations, the orks, who, not being minions of the Old Ones were not affected like the Krork (the Brainboyz) were. It would also mean that snotlings are not the Brainboyz which is fair enough and potentially clashes with the quote from the Deceiver but like I said earlier on, we don't know very much about what the Krork looked like so maybe they created their slaves to look just like them and to the Deceiver greenskins all over the place look Krork enough for him. Of course, the Old Ones never encoded the Krork with information as far as we know, we only know they intended that the Krork along with various other hastily created creatures were supposed to defend their last bastions.

Possibility two is that the Brainboyz were snotlings, meaning that the Krork were snotlings, and since snotlings still exist and are everwhere that agrees completely with what the Deceiver says. It gives more credence however to this possibility and that the line about the plague is a throw-away statement which adds more flavour and mystery.

You know I own every codex for multiple editions of warhammer including the 2 you mention. No where in the Ork codex does it say that the Brainboyz (aka the Old Ones) where orkoids

Huh? Yes it does. Page seven, 'the Brainboyz regressed into snotlings', quite empahtically states that they were orkoids.

(having green skin does not make you an orkoid)

Certainly not, but no other race in Warhammer 40,000 is referred to as greenskins apart from orks and it seems likely that when any ork talks about a legendary caste of greenskins which created them they mean some kind of orkoid. Besides if that's the tack you want to take then the Krork having green skin doesn't automatically make them orks.

and no where in the Necron codex does it give any physical description of the Old Ones so I'm wondering what exactly you're reading that says they where orkoids.

I'm not the one arguing that the Brainboyz are the Old Ones so I have no idea why you've brought that up. I am saying that the Brainboyz were not Old Ones and were orkoids so I could care less what the Old Ones looked like.

since we've already established that the Krork and Ork are one and the same and that they are still alive then this proves that the Brainboys where in fact the Old Ones (I wonder how many times I'm going to have to say this to you).

Except you haven't established that the orks are krorks, how many times do I have to tell you?

Ah this is wrong, see the minions of the Old Ones where aflicted by the Enslaver Plague which then affected the Old Ones causing them to die out because their minions where no longer under there controle and could not protect them. No where is it ever mentioned that the minions of the Old Ones died out and

Again, this relates to my earlier points. You cannot mix and match the two possibilities in Codex Orks, they are distinct and seperate unto themselves.

True it only gives the idea that the Brainboyz died out as a Ork legend. But let's look at the options, 1 The Brainboyz died out due to a plague 2 They regressed into snotlings or 3 they regressed into snotlings because the Orks overthrew them. The 3rd option that they regressed into snotlings because the Orks rebeled is just the writers putting a representation of the Orks mentality that they won't be controlled into the book. This leaves the third option which strongly coincides with the fluff of the Old Ones and what happened to them.

Possibility 2 and 3 are linked so there is only actually a second possibility; this is the background as written in Waaargh the Orks.

Now since the GW changed the old fluff as to what happened to the BB into what it is now I doubt that they regressed into snotlings because if they did GW would have had no reason to change the fluff so this options is just GWs way of keeping in touch with older fluff.

So you say but if that were really the case it would have been much simpler to have left the twenty-one year old background where it was and not dredge it up at all.

...I for one believe that a company like GW who has created this entire fictional universe would have the foresight not to mention two groups of beings which have everything in common and not have them be the same race.

Like I say, the background in Codex Necrons has always been contentious and Games Workshop may well be planning to airbrush out that background in the next edition of Codex Necrons which is why they have gone back to the original background. The possible connection to the old Codex Necrons background is the word 'plague', enough of a connection to make the new and improved Codex Necrons background a surprise for when it is released.

Oh so you have insight into what GW is going to be writing in their fluff huh? you ought to make a thread detailing what you know as I'm sure there are many people who would love to know what GW is changing fluff into.

Oh please you're the one presuming to know why Games Workshop have written the background as they have, in the quote below you present your own opinion about why Games Workshop wrote the background how they wrote it as fact!

In the meantime we're going to go with the fact that GW changed and older more definitive background into a recent more ambiguous background because they no longer wanted the older background to be canon.

Which leaves out the fact that Games Workshop even bothered to re-introduce twenty-one year old background at all, when a lot of gamers wouldn't even have been born when Waaargh the Orks was released. It makes much more sense that they intend to do way with the crap background presented in Codex Necrons which people have griped about ever since it was published.

1. That the fluff saying that the Brainboyz deffinitly turned into snotlings is no longer canon and so every argument you made based off of that fluff still being canon now has no grounds.

It has grounds based on the fact it is mentioned at all and if we go with the option that the Brainboyz were snotlings as presented in the latest Codex Orks then it is absolutely canon.

2. The Krork did not die out and are now known as the Orks as is proven thanks to the Deciever.

Or that by Krork the Deciever meant snotlings, the remnants of the Brainboyz.

3. Because the Krork and the Ork are 2 names for the same thing this rules out that the Krork where the Orks creators and proves that they where not the Brainboyz.

Only according to one possibility which could very well be wrong.

4. Given that the Old Ones/Brainboyz are both described as highly intelligent and masters of genetics, that they both created a hardy greenskinned race to protect themselves, the even the mentioning of their downfalls being the result of a plague connects the 2 and that there is no one else who could match the facts we know about the Brainboyz as closely as the Old Ones (in fact I have never seen any differances between the fluff for the 2 that is still canon) we know that the Brainboyz and the Old Ones are one and the same.

We do not as I have pointed out to you time and time again, this only works if you go for option one so it cannot possibly be definitive when it is predicated upon ambiguous background which doesn't even use the words 'Old Ones' or 'Enslaver Plague' at all.

So you first argued that The Old Ones coulden't have been the Brainboyz because the Brainboyz turned into snotlings while the Old Ones died out.

I never argued that the Old Ones died out. If we go with the second option presented in Codex Orks then the Brainboyz were snotlings.

Then you tried arguing that the Brainboyz coulden't have been the Old Ones and where actually the Krork who died out due to the Enslaver Plague.
This argument has no grounds since the Necron Codex proves that the Krork and the Ork are the same race whose name has just changed over time and since the Old Ones died out and the Orks (who are the Krork) are still alive then they coulden't have died out.

Like I say, it depends which option you go for.

Plus you seemed to have forgotten that the description of the Brainboyz has them being a small race that needed to create others to protect themselves but the description of the Krork is that they where a hardy greenskinned warrior race created to protect the Old Ones.

Wrong, it does not say that they were a warrior race at all, it only says that they were 'hardy' and 'green skinned' and that the Old Ones created them along with the Jokaero and other unnamed creatures to defend their last bastions. It is unknown in what manner the Krork were supposed to achieve this or even if they were intended to achieve this alone or in conjunction with the other creatures the Old Ones created. Even so, all orkoids are hardy, some are just more hardy than others. In any case, just because the Old Ones created creatures to defend themselves it does not mean that those creature in time also needed protection. Afterall, when the Enslavers make a warp gate via a victim, allowing egress into the material plane then protection is required against those Enslavers. We know from Codex Necrons that the Enslavers took over the Old Ones minions which is why they were not effective so it stands to reason that those minions, in the centuries that followed, (and Codex Orks does say it took many centuries for this to happen) would have taken steps to protect themselves. They must have done otherwise none of those minions would exist in the 41st Millennium.

I'm curious to see who you try and make the Brainboyz into next. I'm also curious as to how long you're gonna try to ignore what's right in your face.

Funnily enough I was wondering the same thing about you...

moonshine wrote:Well I will start with the diffrences betwean king charles spaniels and jack russels. jack russels were bred to protect farmers lands from rabbits and pests whilst king chrles spaniels were just fashion acsessories in he 16th century. jack russels are bred to eat as little food as possible and king charles spaniels are not, I could go on for hours but I think I have made my point.

I'm not sure if this was intended as a joke but given that we're talking about Brainboyz and Old Ones it's pretty clear that I wasen't asking what the differances between 2 dogs are.

Anyway I don't think there is enough information on the old ones and brainboyz a few pages in the necron dex and a paragrapgh in the ork codex, there is just not enough official information

The amount of information is irrelevant when all of the information given coincides with eachother.

The problem is people jump to conclusion when they read somthing on lexicanicum and other forums you need to ask yourself where the information is coming from before creating a conclusion.

The first problem with this is that nothing said in this entire statement was taken from Lexicanum or other forums at least on my part. The second problem with this is that everything I said came directly from codices and my knowledge of them, this isn't some random theory I read about one time.

Anyway I always thought the old ones gave the eldar the webway but it would appear I was wrong.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the Old Ones forseeing the downfall of the Eldar Empire. The Eldar where created as a servant race of the Old Ones and as such would know how to use the webway and given the memory spans of Orks would be the only race that still knew how to use it after the fall of the Old Ones. And even at that the Eldar are losing alot of knowledge of how to replicate and fix their technology and the webway isn't as reliable as it used to be.

It is obvious that the orks creators did not intend to be overthrown and it was probably a mistake or somthing beacuse the orks would not know what to do if they had no orders from creators if all there creators died out.

Don't take this wrong but do you even read fluff? "the orks would not know what to do if they had no orders from their creators" this statement flies in the face of so much fluff it isn't even funny. The Orks where created for war, it is what they live for so yes they would know what to do. They where also created to instinctivly know how to do specific things because the information on how to do it was implanted into their genetics. That's why Mad Doks know how to fix wounded orks without ever having any training, or how a Mek can make a bomb out of a pile of scraps. So while the creators of the Orks (the Old Ones/Brainboyz) may not have intended to be overthrown that dosen't mean they didn't see it coming and prepare for it.

I suggest you read the discussion me and Grogsnik have been having especially the section where I've provided multiple quotes from the codices. The Necron codex proves that the Orks (created by the Brainboyz) and the Krork (created by the Old Ones) are the same race with differant names from differant time periods. Since they are the same race that means that the groups that created them (the Brainboyz and Old Ones) are differant names for the same group. The Brainboyz is the name that the Orks have for the Old Ones.

Gogsnik wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:That's funny, you where adamant that the older background stating that the Brainboyz absolutly turned into snotlings was still canon and now you're changning your tune. So every argument you've made in this entire thread which had that idea as it's cornerstone is now false.

Absolutely not. You have been adamant that the Brainboyz are the Old Ones and I have argued that that is not the case.

Um could it be because my original post in this thread was the the Orks where created by the Old Ones and that because of this I believe that ment they where made in a lab and aloud to populate on a number of planets instead of evolving on just one.

Hahaha I hope I'm not the only one who sees how many times you go back on what you say, you said that the Brainboyz coulden't be the Old Ones because the Enslaver Plague didn't effect the Old Ones directly it effected their servants.

That is what I have said because that is what Codex Necrons says, '...the Enslavers took control of their minions.'

By saying that you are implying that the plague mentioned in codex Orks that wiped out the Brainboyz effected them personally (and physically) and not their servants (the orks).

It is only a possibility that the Brainboyz might have died out because of a plague. Codex Orks seems quite emphatic upon whom the plague had an affect however so I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse here but you're really tying yourself in knots. Codex Orks states, 'Some Ork legends tell of a great plague that lasted for many centuries, causing the Brainboyz to dwindle and eventually die out altogether.' That seems to me to very clearly say that it was the Brainboyz who were affected by the plague.

I'm tying myself in knots and yet my arguments have been consistant this entire time while you keep jumping around. hmmm now whose being obtuse. "causing the Branboyz to dwindle and eventually die out altogether" Let's see if I can put this simply enough, a group of men have bodyguards who protects them from an enemy. All of those bodyguards get's a disease and die and because they are dead the men are no longer protected from their enemy they where hunted down one by one and killed. This example shows that the death of the bodyguards due to the disease caused the death of the men (just like how the Enslaver plague which took over the Orks/Krork caused the Old Ones/Brainboyz to dwindle and die out because they where no longer protected.

Yet codex Orks never says that the Plague which killed the Brainboyz actually affected them personally it says that it caused them to dwindle and die the same way that the Enslaver Plague caused the Old Ones to die out.

Codex Necrons says that the Enslaver Plague affected the Old Ones minions. The Old Ones were not destroyed in any way by the Enslavers.

If the races that the Old Ones created to protect themselves where no longer there to protect the because they where under the controle of the Enslavers then yes the Enslavers caused the death of the Old ones.

We don't know what happened to the Old Ones and Xenology hints that at least one of the Old Ones is still out there. Codex Necrons says that the Old Ones civilisation collapsed, as a result of their minions being taken over by Enslavers, but the ultimate fate of the Old Ones is not known.

So if you want to be ignorant and think that somewhere out there after being hunted down by the C'tan and having all of their servants taken from them dosen't mean they're dead be my guest.

So you are wrong to assert that the Enslaver Plague caused the Old Ones to die out as it simply didn't, it affected their minions only.

I already adressed this hopefully it's simple enough for you to understand

Hahaha you're starting to fish for responses, by correctly infering that the Plague which killed the Brainboyz is the same Plague that killed the Old Ones it does not prove that the Brainboyz where the old ones minions because none of the Old Ones minions died out due to the plague. And since the only race that completely died out due to the plague where the Old Ones (aka the Brainboyz) then it istablishes that the Brainboyz did not turn into snotlings because snotlings are a living race.

Wrong, for the reasons outlined already.

I'm sure it is wrong for the reasons outlined already, although you don't seem to understand the nature of cause and effect.

Actually your point throughout this entire thing has been that older fluff is still canon and given that I've already proved you wrong on that and you admitted it that's closed and shut. Plus I just proved you wrong that the Krork where the Brainboyz, I mean a quote by the Deciever in the modern 40k universe (since it's know that he awoke only recently in the 40k timeline) about how the Krork are scattered everywhere pretty much butchers your idea that the Krork where the Brainboyz and died out due to the plague because yet again if a race died out they woulden't be present in the 40k universe.

More of the obtuseness.

Ah such logic in the face of somethingtaken directly from a codex. I wish I could try and ignore points people make by calling them obtuse but I actually support what I say so I do;ot need to avoid answering things

There are only two possibilites both of which engender their own individual circumstances, you can't mix and match them. One has no bearing on the other and vice versa and depending on which one you choose to give more credence to it alters the way in which the recent Codex Orks background relates to other background material.

Really that's why the codex lists 3 things? and please go into detail about how I've mixed and matched them.

If the Brainboyz were affected by the Enslaver Plague that means they were minions of the Old Ones, ergo the Krork.

You should read up on cause and effect it might do you some good.

According to the current Codex Orks the Brainboyz took steps to preserve their knowledge in their servants the orks.

Oh so the Brainboyz putting information into there servants means that the Krork where the Brainboyz, great argument you've got such a ringer ther (note the sarcasm).

This means that the Krork, minions of the Old Ones were steadily wiped out by the Enslavers and not their creations, the orks, who, not being minions of the Old Ones were not affected like the Krork (the Brainboyz) were.

You keep forgetting things sherlock, the Krork are describes as a hard greenskin race created to protect the Old Ones. The Brainboyz are described as a small race which created a race to protect themselves. So why would the Krork be created to protect the Old Ones if the Krork needed to create a race to protect them in turn. hmmmmm

It would also mean that snotlings are not the Brainboyz which is fair enough and potentially clashes with the quote from the Deceiver but like I said earlier on, we don't know very much about what the Krork looked like so maybe they created their slaves to look just like them and to the Deceiver greenskins all over the place look Krork enough for him.

oh man your fishing so hard you must be pulling in sharks, you really think that a god with the name The Deciever would be stupid enoughto mistake one race for another that just happened to create their servants to look just like them oh man that's classic, a real solid argument you got there. "maybe they created their servants to look just like them" and yet Orks don't fit the physical description of the Brainboyz found in the Ork codex.

Of course, the Old Ones never encoded the Krork with information as far as we know, we only know they intended that the Krork along with various other hastily created creatures were supposed to defend their last bastions.

Oh but according to you the Old Ones created a race to protect themselves who in turn had to create another race for their protection. Gee I would have thought that if the Old Ones created a protection species then that protection species woulden't need to create another. I mean, that's just me and common sense though.

Possibility two is that the Brainboyz were snotlings, meaning that the Krork were snotlings, and since snotlings still exist and are everwhere that agrees completely with what the Deceiver says.

Oh yes, the Deciever is going to notice that the snotlings are everywhere and just completly ignore the Orks, yea do;ot buy it at all.

It gives more credence however to this possibility and that the line about the plague is a throw-away statement which adds more flavour and mystery.

This coming from someone who up untill recently argued that GW didn't replace the original fluff with something more mysterious. I bet you sing a differant song every time someone tells you your lyrics are wrong.

You know I own every codex for multiple editions of warhammer including the 2 you mention. No where in the Ork codex does it say that the Brainboyz (aka the Old Ones) where orkoids

Huh? Yes it does. Page seven, 'the Brainboyz regressed into snotlings', quite empahtically states that they were orkoids.

Along with cause and effect look up context and learn how to use it especially considering that Ork codex page 7 does not say "theBrainboyz regressed into snotlings" it says "others maintain that the Brainboyz regressed into snotlings" add this to the fact that the paragraph above this statement identifies these beliefs as Ork legends and not fact then no the codex does not identify the Brainboyz as orkoids IF the Brainboyz regressed into snotlings then yes they would be orkoids but given that this isn't confirmed in any way you can't state that the Brainboyz where orkoids as a fact.

(having green skin does not make you an orkoid)

Certainly not, but no other race in Warhammer 40,000 is referred to as greenskins apart from orks and it seems likely that when any ork talks about a legendary caste of greenskins which created them they mean some kind of orkoid

you keep jumping around.

No, my argument has been the same this entire time, that the Brainboyz are not the Old Ones and despite the ambiguity it can still be said that that is the case if people so wish.

Old Ones/Brainboyz to dwindle and die out because they where no longer protected.

...the Enslavers caused the death of the Old ones.

Again, there is no conclusive evidence as to the fate of the Old Ones. We only know for certain that their civilisation collapsed.

So if you want to be ignorant and think that somewhere out there after being hunted down by the C'tan and having all of their servants taken from them dosen't mean they're dead be my guest.

Fellah, you are the ignorant one here. Firstly the C'tan did not hunt down the Old Ones. The C'tan were reduced to only a handful by devouring each other before the Old Ones had even nurtured the Eldar and millennia passed whilst the Old Ones new creations bore fruit. These young races allowed the Old Ones to crush the remaining C'tan and it wasn't until various warp denizens and the Enslavers began destroying the young races that the Old Ones power was broekn and they were 'scattered'. Then in Xenology we have evidence of an Old One who is still active. Discount that if you wish to but you are wrong.

Really that's why the codex lists 3 things?

It doesn't list three things, it lists two. One possibility being that the Brainboyz were destroyed by a plague alluding to the blah blah blah, yak yak yak, we already covered it. Possibility two that they have regressed into snotlings as per the original background; it says they regressed and that the orks were responsible for that regression, it's one sentence and one point.

and please go into detail about how I've mixed and matched them.

You see this is why you keep getting so muddled and having consistently failed to grasp what I've been saying. Those two possibilities are exclusive and alter all the preceding background to fit including what the Krork may have been, who the Deceiver is actually talking about when it says Krork and who or what the Brainboyz were, how that relates to the Old Ones et cetera. If it wasn't clear to you before then I shall point out now that I'm going with option two in Codex Orks, that the Brainboyz regressed into snotlings. With that as the case it alters what the krork could have been since they could not have been orks. Is it so hard to grasp really?

You should read up on cause and effect it might do you some good.

You should read the background more closely instead of being a patronising ass. Perhaps you thnk your pathetic attempts at sarcasm will help deflect away from your ludicrous statements but you ain't fooling anyone bub.

Oh so the Brainboyz putting information into there servants means that the Krork where the Brainboyz...

It does as per possibility two yeah.

So why would the Krork be created to protect the Old Ones if the Krork needed to create a race to protect them in turn.

"maybe they created their servants to look just like them" and yet Orks don't fit the physical description of the Brainboyz found in the Ork codex.

Oh but according to you the Old Ones created a race to protect themselves who in turn had to create another race for their protection. Gee I would have thought that if the Old Ones created a protection species then that protection species woulden't need to create another. I mean, that's just me and common sense though.

Oh yes, the Deciever is going to notice that the snotlings are everywhere and just completly ignore the Orks, yea do;ot buy it at all.

According to you the Krork created the Ork and they made them to resemble their creators. But here you're saying that the Deciever was saying that the Krork are the snotlings. You are aware that Orks and snotlings have a BIG physical differance. You need to make up your mind on what your argument is.

This only follows if taking possibility one in Codex Orks as the truth but I'm not interested in that, so I don't much care why they would do that to be honest. Following from the second possibility that the Brainboyz were snotlings it all makes perfect sense and how that gets chalked up against the Krork guff I could care less. This also follows on from your mixing and matching. The Old Ones -> Krork/Brainboyz -> orks and gretchin only follows from the first possibility which I don't subscribe to so, no I ma not saying that this was the case because it is not what I take to be true, it only is necessitated if taking the first possibility to be true which I don't.

This coming from someone who up untill recently argued that GW didn't replace the original fluff with something more mysterious.

An outright lie and you know it. I never said that the older background had not become more mysterious I said, 'The fact that it is left obscure lends more credence to the already established background, not less.'

you can't state that the Brainboyz where orkoids as a fact.

You might like to look up context as well since you have so deftly ignored it here. You said that, 'No where in the Ork codex does it say that the Brainboyz where orkoids' when it does actually say that the Brainboyz regressed into snotlings thereby meaning that the Ork Codex does contain within it that information. I never said it was fact, only that it said it.

there is a direct statement that already proves this.

No such direct statement exists in the background, no where is there one line of text that says the krork are the orks. There are only implications that this could be the case.

But not to long ago you argued that they didn't have to reintroduce the old fluff because it was still canon. Oh and people don't have to be born when something comes out in order to read it. So you think that GW changed the official background of codex Orks so that they could change the background of codex Necrons, I was unaware that Necron background depended so much on the Orks.

I said earlier that old background is canon unless re-written not that it should or should not be re-introduced. And no I do not think that any changes were made in Codex Orks [to facilitate some possible background in the future Codex Necrons]. What I said was that if Games Workshop are changing the background then we would be able to see that by what they do not include in Codex Orks (or any Codex potentially that comes before Codex Necrons), it would create a distance from the old Codex Necrons for Games Workshop to have only included the Waaargh The Orks background. And no, no-one needs to have been in the hoby prior to the publication of Waaargh The Orks to read it but a lot of gamers entered the hobby after that point so dredging up all that old background is a waste of time unless it holds some significance.

Especially if according to you the Brainboyz and Old Ones are the same thing.

And you reckon my memory is slipping? That's your argument pal, not mine.

using older fluff that is no longer canon as a counter argument to recent fluff that is canon

I don't need to use the old background, it's right there in Codex Orks.

Ah except for the fact that Enslavers can only enter the real world by possessing psykers. From there they can jump to a non psyker.

Not sure where you're getting your information from for this but it's wrong. Enslavers use psykers to create warp gates, they don't possess them, and then enter the material realm, they are free to move about wherever they wish from that point on.

Speculations will get you no where, especially when arguing against someone who is basing their theory off of established fluff instead of trying to twist established fluff to suit my theory.

Wow, the sheer conceit is extraordinary, kudos. I haven't actually speculated about anything to fit my own preferences because I've always backed the second possibility from Codex Orks because it remains in line with the original background for the Orks. I couldn't care less about shoe-horning in the Krork or the Old Ones, that's your argument not mine. As for the 'sarcasm'; grow up.

Thanks guys,

I really appreciate it!!

Dakka arguments: really just another "E-Peen Waggling" contest

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:I'm not sure if this was intended as a joke but given that we're talking about Brainboyz and Old Ones it's pretty clear that I wasen't asking what the differances between 2 dogs are.

The point was that even though two things sound the same they can turn out to be completly different. If you write up every single fact you know about the old ones and brainboyz, I would be intersested definatly but I doubt there would be enough information to create a diffinative picture of what the two races were like, there ar no pictures of them either, not even sketches. The point is though that even though there is alot of information there is still not enough to be able to say if they were or were not the same thing.

Ask an ork that and it will reply " Why da **** do ya needz ta no?" followed by a swift kick in the ass

Just curious

Well I think that they have completely deviated from the OP's question . I don't think he ever asked about the Old Ones or the Brainboyz or most of the stuff afore mentioned. But yeah the point is, we don't know the Ork's home planet (if they do have one). Maybe you could just make up a planet where your orks live, or perhaps make it a space hulk that your Orks are inhabiting.That is, if your really bent on making some terrain for your Ork's "homeworld".