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The problem is that, we're still going out of our way to find reasons for a separate Codex for an army that, at the end of the day, is still going to share 90% of its content with Codex: Space Marines, and could be represented as well as its ever been, and at least as well as most other Space Marine chapters, if folded into C:SM.

Sure, those aren't half bad ideas for a Dark Angels codex. But is all that suff, in a separate *Dark Angels* Codex, really required to play a fluffy and competitive Dark Angels army any more than Iron Hands, Salamanders, or White Scars? Or even more, are they really that much more different compared with C:SM more than say, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Night Lords or Word Bearers are to each other?

Aside from the fact that they simply historically have had their own codex, looking at the DA's fluff and their Codecies for the last 15 years, it's hard to say "yes" to the above questions. Sure, you can come up with all sorts of stuff, but how much of it will be either retcons or newly made up after nearly four editions of consistent fluff, and how much of it is still just slapping a couple special rules or slight wargear modifications on top of common SM units and wargear? Is it really *that* much more varied than what you could come up with for another chapter?

We still end up with a book that is basically a handful of extra special rules and some FoC swaps on top of C:SM. That'd be fine for a WD list or a Chapter Approved thing, which I wish GW would bring back, but a Codex should really be something that stands for an entire faction. Just as IG don't need a Codex: Armored Companies or Codex: Airborne Cavalry or Codex: Jungle Fighters, Tau don't need Codex: Farsight Enclace, and Eldar don't need Codex: Saim Hann or Codex: Ulthwe, these can all be done in one book, it's hard to see where we *need* a Codex: Dark Angels or Blood Angels or Space Wolves or Black Templars. Despite all my issues with C:CSM (and they are...numerous to say the least) I don't have a problem using my Iron Warriors within the scope of C:CSM despite that they are *vastly* different from Thousand Sons or Night lords (aside from the fact that C:SW makes almost the exact same army for cheaper and with Counterattack.), I'd much rather see a much better and comprehensively written singular CSM book than multiple Legion books.

Vaktathi wrote:The problem is that, we're still going out of our way to find reasons for a separate Codex for an army that, at the end of the day, is still going to share 90% of its content with Codex: Space Marines, and could be represented as well as its ever been, and at least as well as most other Space Marine chapters, if folded into C:SM.

Sure, those aren't half bad ideas for a Dark Angels codex. But is all that suff, in a separate *Dark Angels* Codex, really required to play a fluffy and competitive Dark Angels army any more than Iron Hands, Salamanders, or White Scars? Or even more, are they really that much more different compared with C:SM more than say, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Night Lords or Word Bearers are to each other?

Aside from the fact that they simply historically have had their own codex, looking at the DA's fluff and their Codecies for the last 15 years, it's hard to say "yes" to the above questions. Sure, you can come up with all sorts of stuff, but how much of it will be either retcons or newly made up after nearly four editions of consistent fluff, and how much of it is still just slapping a couple special rules or slight wargear modifications on top of common SM units and wargear? Is it really *that* much more varied than what you could come up with for another chapter?

We still end up with a book that is basically a handful of extra special rules and some FoC swaps on top of C:SM. That'd be fine for a WD list or a Chapter Approved thing, which I wish GW would bring back, but a Codex should really be something that stands for an entire faction. Just as IG don't need a Codex: Armored Companies or Codex: Airborne Cavalry or Codex: Jungle Fighters, Tau don't need Codex: Farsight Enclave, and Eldar don't need Codex: Saim Hann or Codex: Ulthwe, these can all be done in one book, it's hard to see where we *need* a Codex: Dark Angels or Blood Angels or Space Wolves or Black Templars. Despite all my issues with C:CSM (and they are...numerous to say the least) I don't have a problem using my Iron Warriors within the scope of C:CSM despite that they are *vastly* different from Thousand Sons or Night lords (aside from the fact that C:SW makes almost the exact same army for cheaper and with Counterattack.), I'd much rather see a much better and comprehensively written singular CSM book than multiple Legion books.

The biggest problem is that "Chaos Space Marines" is, quite frankly, a misnomer.

Right now, the book is "Renegade Space Marines". An actual "Chaos Space Marines" book is going to be a hugely different beast.

Just like Codex: Dark Angels, if done properly, is going to be a hugely different beast than Codex: Space Marines.
The other examples you give are not really divergent force lists, but rather just variations on the main concept.

With the Airborne Cavalry/Armored Companies? Nothing contained within is unique to that specific force. Leman Russes and Chimeras are commonly attached to normal Infantry Companies, same with Valkyries.

Kanluwen wrote:]
The biggest problem is that "Chaos Space Marines" is, quite frankly, a misnomer.

Right now, the book is "Renegade Space Marines". An actual "Chaos Space Marines" book is going to be a hugely different beast.

Right, I agree, but what I was driving at is that, we have so many armies contained in one book, with far more variation between them, that have never needed their own book. Why do Dark Angels or any of the other loyalist SM armies that have them need them if the *far* more varied Chaos Legions have always made do with one?

Just like Codex: Dark Angels, if done properly, is going to be a hugely different beast than Codex: Space Marines.
The other examples you give are not really divergent force lists, but rather just variations on the main concept.

How would Dark Angels not be? Their fluff consistently describes them as a codex chapter. Aside from their first and second companies, and a little bit with their upper leadership, they are very adherent to the Codex Astartes. They don't have any more equipment than other chapters or more marines, the majority of their forces don't operate any differently, and they've never been evidenced as having weapons/wargear that other chapters don't aside from a couple rare relics that a couple of their SC's carry like every SM army has.

They are, aside from the operation of their first and second companies, a very Codex chapter, and always have been. How would a "proper" DA codex be a divergent force rather than a variation?

They have always been simply a slight variation, why put so much effort into making them something so much different when they just aren't?

How do DA's just flat out need their own book, given their history in the game, that they just could not possibly be played as they have always been if folded into C:SM? If one is playing DA's and isn't using Deathwing or Ravenwing units, or at least not as Troops, could you not have always used C:SM to portray an exactly identical force? If so, why the need for a separate book? It's hard to see where any DA book would not still end up sharing 90% of its content (weapons, wargear, units, special rules, etc) with C:SM. In that case, why is it so necessary for it to have its own book? If the only point of a DA book is to play Deathwing/Ravenwing forces, and its known that many other chapters field similar formations (some just as often, some not, but most at some point), why do we need a DA book just for that instead of just making that a capability of C:SM?

With the Airborne Cavalry/Armored Companies? Nothing contained within is unique to that specific force.

Dedicated transport valks (as opposed to Squadroned Fast Attack choices which makes a huge difference in how they work on a tabletop) for infantry units, heavy support vulture gunships instead of Leman Russ tanks and artillery, deep striking infantry, no tanks, etc. FW's IA:8 Airborne list plays *waaaayy* differently than a C:IG list trying to do the same thing would. There's just as much variation there, if not more, as there has ever been with Dark Angels aside from the Special Characters. The IA:8 list plays more like an Eldar army than a typical IG army, even one trying to do Aircav with the IG book. And yet its fine as a FW list, not needing its own codex.

Leman Russes and Chimeras are commonly attached to normal Infantry Companies

Right but there are also entire Armored Companies consisting of nothing but tanks that commonly take the field. Leman Russ tanks as Troops, HQ, and Elites instead of just HS, elite tanks skills that gave them extra abilities, etc. They used to have a Chapter Approved list and still have a FW list, yet have never needed their own codex.

These lists are still at least as varied as DA have ever been compared with C:SM (which again, was practically not at all in 2E, and simply Bike/Terminator FoC swaps to troops since the late 1990's), yet don't need their own codex. Within these contexts, how are they not just as divergent as DA's have ever been? How far must one go to make DA divergent "enough" to justify their own book without still sharing the overwhelmingly vast majority of units/wargear/weapons/rules/vehicles/etc and not totally retconn all of their previous background?

Dark Angels don't need their own codex. They only need one special character:

Belial: Allows a player to take terminator squads as troops, and allows you to mix terminator squads.

Ravenwing is already represented in C:SM because they have models that let you bring bikes as troops.
Edit: Grammar

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The biggest problem is that "Chaos Space Marines" is, quite frankly, a misnomer.

Right now, the book is "Renegade Space Marines". An actual "Chaos Space Marines" book is going to be a hugely different beast.

Right, I agree, but what I was driving at is that, we have so many armies contained in one book, with far more variation between them, that have never needed their own book. Why do Dark Angels or any of the other loyalist SM armies that have them need them if the *far* more varied Chaos Legions have always made do with one?

You missed my point, entirely.

The Chaos Space Marines book is not Chaos Space Marines. It's "Renegade" Space Marines.

Just like Codex: Dark Angels, if done properly, is going to be a hugely different beast than Codex: Space Marines.
The other examples you give are not really divergent force lists, but rather just variations on the main concept.

How would Dark Angels not be? Their fluff consistently describes them as a codex chapter. Aside from their first and second companies, and a little bit with their upper leadership, they are very adherent to the Codex Astartes. They don't have any more equipment than other chapters or more marines, the majority of their forces don't operate any differently, and they've never been evidenced as having weapons/wargear that other chapters don't aside from a couple rare relics that a couple of their SC's carry like every SM army has.

They are, aside from the operation of their first and second companies, a very Codex chapter, and always have been. How would a "proper" DA codex be a divergent force rather than a variation?

They have always been simply a slight variation, why put so much effort into making them something so much different when they just aren't?

Probably because they aren't?
The whole point of Dark Angels is that they're "codex...but not". They retain their original, pre-Founding traditions in the form of the Inner Circle. They retain the tradition of the Legions in that all the Successor Chapters answer directly to Azrael. The Inner Circles of every single one of the Unforgiven Chapters are a tightly knit group, and the Dark Angels themselves approve the ascension of their progeny to the Inner Circle and the mysteries of the Unforgiven.

How do DA's just flat out need their own book, given their history in the game, that they just could not possibly be played as they have always been if folded into C:SM? If one is playing DA's and isn't using Deathwing or Ravenwing units, or at least not as Troops, could you not have always used C:SM to portray an exactly identical force? If so, why the need for a separate book? It's hard to see where any DA book would not still end up sharing 90% of its content (weapons, wargear, units, special rules, etc) with C:SM. In that case, why is it so necessary for it to have its own book? If the only point of a DA book is to play Deathwing/Ravenwing forces, and its known that many other chapters field similar formations (some just as often, some not, but most at some point), why do we need a DA book just for that instead of just making that a capability of C:SM?

With the Airborne Cavalry/Armored Companies? Nothing contained within is unique to that specific force.

Dedicated transport valks (as opposed to Squadroned Fast Attack choices which makes a huge difference in how they work on a tabletop) for infantry units, heavy support vulture gunships instead of Leman Russ tanks and artillery, deep striking infantry, no tanks, etc. FW's IA:8 Airborne list plays *waaaayy* differently than a C:IG list trying to do the same thing would. There's just as much variation there, if not more, as there has ever been with Dark Angels aside from the Special Characters. The IA:8 list plays more like an Eldar army than a typical IG army, even one trying to do Aircav with the IG book. And yet its fine as a FW list, not needing its own codex.

Then you're using the wrong example.
"Airborne Cavalry" is a standard Guard formation, but with enough Valkyries attached to the regiment that they can reasonably transport the majority of their forces that way.

The Elysians are, again, an entirely different beast. They're "Codex--but Not".
Just like the Dark Angels.

And as a sidenote? IA:8 is effectively "Codex: Drop Troops". It contains the fluff of the Elysians, all the individual units you could potentially field, and their special rules.

Leman Russes and Chimeras are commonly attached to normal Infantry Companies

Right but there are also entire Armored Companies consisting of nothing but tanks that commonly take the field. Leman Russ tanks as Troops, HQ, and Elites instead of just HS. They used to have a Chapter Approved list and still have a FW list, yet have never needed their own codex.

Probably because of the fact that it's a specialist formation that is supposed to be extremely rare?

These lists are still at least as varied as DA have ever been compared with C:SM (which again, was practically not at all in 2E, and simply Bike/Terminator FoC swaps to troops since the late 1990's), yet don't need their own codex. Within these contexts, how are they not just as divergent as DA's have ever been? How far must one go to make DA divergent "enough" to justify their own book without still sharing the overwhelmingly vast majority of units/wargear/weapons/rules/vehicles/etc and not totally retconn all of their previous background?

What previous background would have to be retconned? Everything I proposed fits within their previously established background. The Deathwing, Interrogator Chaplains being relegated to a non-combat role, Hunt the Fallen, Scouts, etc.
The only remote argument you might have is in regards to the Brother-Redemptors, but considering the novels are from the Horus Heresy series and are dated post-Fulgrim/C.S. Goto(which means excessive fact-checking and absurd amounts of approval from the "Background Masters" at the Black Library) it's fair to say that it's as canon as it will ever get, or regarding the Terminator Plasma Cannons.

In my mind, the only SM chapters truly deserving of a whole book of their own are the Spess Wulfs, and maybe the Templars. The rest should just have .pdf expansions for the vanilla codex.

Kanluwen wrote:
You missed my point, entirely.

The Chaos Space Marines book is not Chaos Space Marines. It's "Renegade" Space Marines.

No, I didn't miss that point, I agreed with it, but it wasn't my original point when bringing up CSM's. I realize there are many problems with Chaos Space Marines (I've been very vocal about it as well), but its irrelevant to the discussion. The point was that the Chaos Legions have *ALWAYS* shared a book, despite being more varied than loyalist legions who have their own book. That's not new to the current book, and likely will never change. If the forces of Chaos can use a single book, surely a chapter that simply operates its 1st and 2nd companies a bit differently than the strictest of codex chapters doesn't need its own book.

Probably because they aren't?
The whole point of Dark Angels is that they're "codex...but not". They retain their original, pre-Founding traditions in the form of the Inner Circle.

And many other chapters don't retain many/most of their traditions?

They retain the tradition of the Legions in that all the Successor Chapters answer directly to Azrael. The Inner Circles of every single one of the Unforgiven Chapters are a tightly knit group, and the Dark Angels themselves approve the ascension of their progeny to the Inner Circle and the mysteries of the Unforgiven.

And there's a similar, although not identical relationship described of the Ultramarines and all their successor chapters. What effect does this have on the army as a playable force? None.

Then you're using the wrong example.
"Airborne Cavalry" is a standard Guard formation, but with enough Valkyries attached to the regiment that they can reasonably transport the majority of their forces that way.

The Elysians are, again, an entirely different beast. They're "Codex--but Not".

Right, but they make do with a FW list or make do with the IG, they don't need their own distinct Codex book

And as a sidenote? IA:8 is effectively "Codex: Drop Troops". It contains the fluff of the Elysians, all the individual units you could potentially field, and their special rules.

To an extent (there's really not much on their history of foundings, primarily just their operations and the IA:8 setting), but is done basically as a side project, just like a WD article or Chapter Approved. They aren't needing their own fleshed out mainstream codex and can if needs be be played with C:IG just not as competitively. If the various loyalist SM books were done as FW lists, or WD articles, it'd lend more legitimacy to the other armies that currently share that status, and remove a lot of the issues and pressures that result from them having a Codex book, and would probably have more page space to go into the DA fluff rather than simply copy/pasting most of the information from C:SM since they won't need to describe and explain each unit as they do in a Codex. They could also be updated faster/easier and remove the issue of varying rules for identical wargear that have arisen as they'd be tied to C:SM not their own thing that gets outdated.

Probably because of the fact that it's a specialist formation that is supposed to be extremely rare?

And the *Deathwing* of all things is not? Or Space Marines as a whole? These are the very definition of extremely rare specialist formations.

Lets be honest, there are going to be far more IG armored companies in the 40k universe than there are going to be Space Marine chapters. IG armor is raised as an entire regiment and then attached as needed to infantry formations usually. Only certain mechanized regiments like Armageddon Steel Legion have integral armor support. Quite often Armor Regiments are fielded as whole armored companies. They're going to be a lot less rare than Space Marines as a whole, much less the nigh Mythical Deathwing.

What previous background would have to be retconned? Everything I proposed fits within their previously established background. The Deathwing, Interrogator Chaplains being relegated to a non-combat role, Hunt the Fallen, Scouts, etc.
The only remote argument you might have is in regards to the Brother-Redemptors, but considering the novels are from the Horus Heresy series and are dated post-Fulgrim/C.S. Goto(which means excessive fact-checking and absurd amounts of approval from the "Background Masters" at the Black Library) it's fair to say that it's as canon as it will ever get, or regarding the Terminator Plasma Cannons.

Hunt the fallen and Scouts on bikes, Deathwing and whatnot is all fine, but does not a codex make. Interrogator Chaplains being relegated to non-combat roles only would certainly be a retcon from how they've always been used in the army.

Still, even if all of this and more was put in, it still wouldn't really amount to anything more than was a WD list would offer. They're still sharing the overwhelmingly vast majority of units/wargear/weapons/vehicles/etc with C:SM, and would still operate basically identically to C:SM if you weren't running a Ravenwing/Deathwing army.

Then let's roll Chaos Space Marines into Codex: Space Marines.

After all, they're just Space Marines by another name and with a few different weapon choices!

That's all I'm really getting from your argument, frankly.

And as a further sidenote?

The whole crux of the issue is that Dark Angels have gotten nowhere near the amount of development that Space Wolves and Blood Angels have gotten. They're content to continually copy/paste everything, and relegate the Dark Angels to a "minor" army who only does well if running a Ravenwing/Deathwing force.

If Dark Angels got more than 15 workhours, at best, of development time we'd be seeing a whole different beast.

Lets be honest, there are going to be far more IG armored companies in the 40k universe than there are going to be Space Marine chapters. IG armor is raised as an entire regiment and then attached as needed to infantry formations usually. Only certain mechanized regiments like Armageddon Steel Legion have integral armor support. Quite often Armor Regiments are fielded as whole armored companies. They're going to be a lot less rare than Space Marines as a whole, much less the nigh Mythical Deathwing.

Uh, actually you're wrong again there.
Pretty much no mechanized regiments have integral armor support. Not even the fabled "Steel Legion" had it, and they fielded obscene amounts of mechanized infantry.
But their tanks were from actual armored companies, not within the regiments themselves.

Kanluwen wrote:Then let's roll Chaos Space Marines into Codex: Space Marines.

After all, they're just Space Marines by another name and with a few different weapon choices!

That's all I'm really getting from your argument, frankly.

Well then I'm sorry, don't know what to say. That's certainly not what I wrote or what I think most people would take away from my arguments.

The whole crux of the issue is that Dark Angels have gotten nowhere near the amount of development that Space Wolves and Blood Angels have gotten. They're content to continually copy/paste everything, and relegate the Dark Angels to a "minor" army who only does well if running a Ravenwing/Deathwing force.

To be fair, BA's were in the exact same boat until last May when they hamfisted in tons of stuff just to make them "unique" enough for their own book. Nowhere previously did they have WS6 AV13 Dreads that could continue rolling attacks until they stopped killing stuff, Death Company dreads (why stick an insane, psychotic dying man in a giant engine of destruction?) Fast Skimmer Gunships, 2+sv Powerweapon wielding Jump Infantry, Fast on every vehicle, or Scouting AV13 Fast Attack slot tanks. Before it was just "we have a turret weapon swap option for preds, can take a 2nd DCCW on dreads instead of a ranged weapon, and can take Assault Marines as Troops, and That's Blood Angels". Everything I'm arguing for about DA's I'd apply to DA's and SW's and BT's as well.

If Dark Angels got more than 15 workhours, at best, of development time we'd be seeing a whole different beast.

Why? That's the core of the matter. They never have been, why radically change them? Why not just accept what they are and always have been and fold them into C:SM? Why do they, above so many other Space Marine chapters that diverge significantly from the Codex Astartes, need their own stand alone Codex?


*WHY* do Dark Angels need to be a whole different beast?

Uh, actually you're wrong again there.
Pretty much no mechanized regiments have integral armor support. Not even the fabled "Steel Legion" had it, and they fielded obscene amounts of mechanized infantry.
But their tanks were from actual armored companies, not within the regiments themselves.

Well whatever, I'm not going to argue this as I can't find my Armageddon codex right now, and more the the point its completely irrelevant (though does support) to the previous issue of Armored Companies not being the rare specialist formations that Space Marines and Deathwing are.

I wouldn't necessarily be against this but I can't see it ever happening. Marines are huge for GW and as with all things in business, what sells rises to the top in priority. I would love it if GW would hold off releasing new basic rules until they have updated all books and can release them together, but that also isn't likely to happen.

alexwars1 wrote:In my mind, the only SM chapters truly deserving of a whole book of their own are the Spess Wulfs, and maybe the Templars. The rest should just have .pdf expansions for the vanilla codex.

But that's the beauty of a conjoined book, you have a cerntain section of playstyle, units and wargear, and different chapters go under certain categories.

I'm going to say it again,

Whilst I can understand your criticism and Space Marines are too dominant and they do get too much attention compared to other races, I believe a big ol' Space Marine Codex wouldn't work for several reasons.

The first of which is the sheer cost of such a book; I play Space Wolves, lets say that you combine the 5 £15 codices into one book, therefore costing £75 in theory. I would not pay £75 for a book I will use less than a quarter of. Not only that, but it would be near-obscene for Games Workshop to charge so much for a book. They will not charge the normal price for a 'Super Codex' and even £50 or so is ridiculous.

Secondly, the Space Marine variant Codices are actually more popular than several stand alone Codices; the last poll I saw about this but them above at least Dark Eldar and Necrons. You get players complaining about the restrictions placed upon their armies (CSM, LaTD, Inq.) already, let alone after such a change as this.

Thirdly, it's simply not fair on the current variant players to shove them all in one book; it cuts down on variance, would likely appear ham-fisted and would ultimately cost them another £50+. You simply cannot go from 5 different Books into 1.

Fourth, Games Workshop is a business. As a business, this doesn't make sense.

Fifth, Many of these individual Space Marine Codices have existed long before many of other Codices available these days.

Sixth, there are too many variant chapters and too much variance to squeeze them all into one book. I expect 3 books could work:
- Space Marines
- Angels of Death
- Space Wolves and Black Templar (the two most divergent).

However, particularly with the new Codices that further enhances any differences, many Space Marine armies are too different to be shoved into one Codex which tacks on something akin to Chapter Tactics to enable the differences.
With the level of variation there is, it would be far too unwieldy to put them into one Codex IMHO.

Finally, as has all ready been said; this likely wouldn't make much of a difference to development times - it's the model production, rather than codex production, that takes so long. With such a book as this; you'd ALSO have a significant amount of time taken to make the book rather than the models. Making it the worst of both worlds.
True, whilst this could ultimately help other Codices to be released quicker as there won't be other Space Marine Codices to get in the way, it would still take a large amount of development time and I wouldn't expect many other codices to be released in the same year as such a book. Also, it could get out-dated very quickly. It'd be a big thing to have all Space Marine armies out-dated, rather than just DA and BT.


I'm probably going to duck out of this thread as it appears as though it's dominated by people too stubborn in their mindset to consider themselves incorrect. If someone could present to me a good argument why such a book would be superior to separate Codices, I'd listen.

I must admit, I don't really understand the need for so many different flavours of power armour in book form, but on the other hand they need to keep those flavours in play. The latest Chaos Codex is an example of how to take several forces, in the shape of the Chaos Legions, and such the very life from the bulk of them.

If it was me, I think I'd prefer something more akin to the older style, where there was a parent codex and then a smaller Codex for the specific rules of that Chapter. The smaller Codex shouldn't be full price (HAH, Games Workshop not making something as expensive as they can manage) which I seem to recall them doing for the older ones, but simply contain the chapter's fluff, FOC, special rules, units and war gear. Maybe a third of the size of the normal Codex.

The Mini-Dexes could even be in mini, starter box sized books. And with a little luck brought out fairly quickly. Of course, with that style, I'd then suggest that the other main Codexes could have similar stuff...Craftworld varients, Chaos Legions, Ork Clans, heck maybe even Hive Fleets and Tau Septs. If enough variation can be brought in to justify it.

It has the bonus of keeping the cost down for the guy who wants to play, say, Space Wolves without buying a £60 book full of all the Marines, and netting Games Workshop additional funds. But knowing them they'd still bring out the mini codexes incredibly slowly. They shouldn't take as long as a full on 'dex, but this is GW...

Chapter Traits System and the Books of Chaos/Legion rules back in 4th ed did a pretty good job of giving variety to their respective marine dexes, and I can easily see it being used with Combat Tactics to adapt the Vanilla dex into the various other Dexes.

For example, for Space Wolves you can take a trait that replaces Combat Tactics with Counter Attack and Acute Senses, but forbids them from taking heavy Weapons in a Tact Squad (and allowing them two Special Weapons). Assault Marines become Troops (Blood Claws) and gets +2 attack on the charge instead of +1, but suffer a -1 WS and BS penalty. Devastator Squads can now Fire at two different targets but capped at 6 models max. Finally, SM bikers can trade in their Bikes to ride Thunderwolves at the apropriate cost.This can be broken down into three traits, one that affects the Grey hunters and Blood Claws, one for the Devastators, and one for the TWCs.

For BAs, it could be a Trait that replaces Chapter Tactics with Furious Charge and allows Assault Marines as troops. Another trait could allow them to give a single Assault Marine squad DC upgrades, including the associated rules and abilities much like the TWC example above. A third trait can either be used on Vanguards to make them Sanguinary Guards, or allow multiple Apothecaries to be taken as a single elites choice for Sanguinary Priests.

BTs similarly can have traits that change their special rules as well as giving you one free (on the FoC at least) commander that MUST be upgraded into the Emperor's Champion in lieu of having Librarians, and a second one that allows you to take scouts in a Tactical Squad.

By far the easiest way for GW to do all of this is to give us the Codexes free as online downloads, this way they can update faster and give every single craftworld, klan, CSM Legion, Chapter, Hive Fleet, Sept and whatever else their own "book". They can also fix errata easier and solve rule disbutes faster. But that wont be profitable as printed books. The reason why the army distribution in Fantasy is more balanced (not exactly balanced, but at least they don have 50% of the players being marines, with another 40% or something being bandwagon jumpers that leap onto the latest marine dex) is because they dont have an oversaturation of books from a single model range. The two that does have counterparts (Bretonnia to Empire and Tomb Kings to Vampire Counts) play very differently than their counterparts.

Codex New Space Marines

Chapter 1
The original foundings and making of a Spam. 6 pages.

Chapter 2
Ultramarines, with a bit of fluff, special characters and rules. 5 pages (2 fluff, 2 characters, 1 rules)

Chapter 3
How to make variant chapters using Traits. The variant traits are used to make the four following chapters, but there are more traits available to make more variations. 12 pages.

Chapter 4
Dark Angels, with a bit of fluff, special characters and rules. 5 pages (2 fluff, 2 characters, 1 rules)

Chapter 5
Space Wolves, with a bit of fluff, special characters and rules. 5 pages (2 fluff, 2 characters, 1 rules)

Chapter 6
Black Templars, with a bit of fluff, special characters and rules. 5 pages (2 fluff, 2 characters, 1 rules)

Chapter 7
Blood Angels, with a bit of fluff, special characters and rules. 5 pages (2 fluff, 2 characters, 1 rules)

Chapter 8
All of the equipment and troop lists. 10 pages.

Chapter 9
Hobby section. 5 pages.

Chapter 10
Quick Reference Sheets. 6 pages

64 pages plus covers, smaller than any of the current SM codexes and could be put out for £15 and make a good profit. It contains all the major units and gives players great flexibility to make up their own.

It could be written in a couple of months mostly by recycling and adapting the stuff that already exists.

The key to this book is several things.

1. No duplication of equipment and army lists.
2. A lot of historical fluff is deleted and put into Black Library books, thus increasing sales.
3. Don’t try too hard to give every chapter dozens of special rules and characters.
4. Fewer pictures.

Personally I'd like to see the basic Codex: Space Marines replaced with a generic Space Marine book containing no special Characters, with all the basic fluff about Space Marines and all the basic units available to lots of people.

Then I'd like to see an Imperial Armour style quality hard-back with about 10 pages per major chapter (and maybe 5 for some minor Codex adherent ones like in IA9 & 10) with IA style fluff, special characters and unique units and a list of which units they use from Codex Space Marines.

Ofc I realise not everyone wants to spend £15 on a codex and £45 on substantial hardback, but that's they way I'd like to see it done.

Kilkrazy wrote:Codex New Space Marines

SNIP

The key to this book is several things.

1. No duplication of equipment and army lists.
2. A lot of historical fluff is deleted and put into Black Library books, thus increasing sales.
3. Don’t try too hard to give every chapter dozens of special rules and characters.
4. Fewer pictures.

I like it, I like it a lot. They could even expand it with tons more fluff and picture and even throw in some more random SM rules for the sake of being the poster boys and still fit it in a current sized and priced codex.

Just Dave wrote:

The first of which is the sheer cost of such a book; I play Space Wolves, lets say that you combine the 5 £15 codices into one book, therefore costing £75 in theory. I would not pay £75 for a book I will use less than a quarter of. Not only that, but it would be near-obscene for Games Workshop to charge so much for a book. They will not charge the normal price for a 'Super Codex' and even £50 or so is ridiculous.

And again, assuming it will cost as much as all of the SM books combined is ridiculous. At *least* half the material, probably more, in all the SM books is identical or nearly identical (here's the intro to the 40k universe, the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy, here's the background on the basics of Space Marines, Here's some common battles that almost every SM book shares like Armageddon, here's all the common units/vehicles/weapons/wargear/etc).

And finally, pricing generally just does not work that way. I've never seen a company amalgamate a product like that and simply add up the cost of all of the previous units and just combine it.

Secondly, the Space Marine variant Codices are actually more popular than several stand alone Codices; the last poll I saw about this but them above at least Dark Eldar and Necrons. You get players complaining about the restrictions placed upon their armies (CSM, LaTD, Inq.) already, let alone after such a change as this.

And again, the Dark Eldar had ugly models and no support for twelve years and were featured in almost nothing. They weren't even stocked in stores after 2005 or so and never were seen, and were could only be bought expensively online direct from GW.

Necrons have a similar problem in that they are *TWO* editions old and are rather bad competitively. Had you checked their popularity in 2006 I'm sure it would have been a far different story.

Thirdly, it's simply not fair on the current variant players to shove them all in one book; it cuts down on variance, would likely appear ham-fisted and would ultimately cost them another £50+. You simply cannot go from 5 different Books into 1.

Once again, most of the current variation is already ham-fisted and forced simply to justify distinct books, not to better represent a certain Space Marine chatper. And no, it needn't cut everything away. If it were done like a CSM 3.5 codex I imagine there would be very few complaints.

Fourth, Games Workshop is a business. As a business, this doesn't make sense.

Again, yes it can. You remove many of the issues with armies sitting there outdated and not selling, you remove the cannibalization of sales from multiple lines and combine it into a single product line, you are able to better support the other existing armies, etc.

Fifth, Many of these individual Space Marine Codices have existed long before many of other Codices available these days.

And again...this really shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not they continue to have one. IG used to have Jetbikes, Dreads and Land Raiders too, does that mean they should still have them?

Sixth, there are too many variant chapters and too much variance to squeeze them all into one book. I expect 3 books could work:
- Space Marines
- Angels of Death
- Space Wolves and Black Templar (the two most divergent).

If The entirety of the Chaos Legions can fit in one book, I'm sure we can fit these, none of which are as different to each other as say Thousand Sons and Night Lords or World Eaters into one book. DA's are basically two FoC swaps. BA's got more complicated after they hamfisted tons of random crap in there, but basically are a Troops FoC swap, dual DCCW dreads, turret swap predators, a random CC rule that changes every edition, and Death Company. SW's are basically just ATSKNF bearing CSM's. BT's get a couple random special rules that could easily be dropped or changed just as easily as any of the other 4E/3E rules like that (traits, doctrines, etc) and they get mixed Scout/Tac squads as troops, doesn't seem all that different to me.

Finally, as has all ready been said; this likely wouldn't make much of a difference to development times - it's the model production, rather than codex production, that takes so long.

And yet SM releases take no more or less time to get to market than others despite needing far less model input.

With such a book as this; you'd ALSO have a significant amount of time taken to make the book rather than the models.

Certainly not much more than the current C:SM or CSM: 3.5. The design work on a book like that doesn't take huge numbers of months, you might add a month or two, tops, probably less to army design time.

True, whilst this could ultimately help other Codices to be released quicker as there won't be other Space Marine Codices to get in the way, it would still take a large amount of development time and I wouldn't expect many other codices to be released in the same year as such a book.

You mean, maybe 1? That wouldn't be any different than the situation is now. We get 2-3 books a year. If it's SM's and something else, that's a normal year.

Also, it could get out-dated very quickly. It'd be a big thing to have all Space Marine armies out-dated, rather than just DA and BT.

How so? Updated it at the beginning of each edition, like they do the basic C:SM every time. Not seeing why it would get outdated. It might not be the ultra mega cheese book by the end of the edition,but in 4E C:SM was never seen as a bottom of the pile army by the end, and in 5E we still aren't seeing that, rather the biggest problem with C:SM is C:BA and C:SW.

Outdated-ness is only evident when there are similar books about. DA and BT became outdated because the newer C:SM, SW and BA books had better equipment for less cost. If all of the marines are rolled into one book, such power creep would not be evident, as everything will get updated at once.

SUPER CODEX HAS COME TO SAVE THE DAY!
Oh wait wrong thread. When I read this I thought it was a joke, But apparently its a legitmate claim that we should have all codexs of SM in one codex..... You know how freaking long that would be? The lore alone would be 3/4 of it.
*walks out*

Asherian Command wrote:SUPER CODEX HAS COME TO SAVE THE DAY!
Oh wait wrong thread. When I read this I thought it was a joke, But apparently its a legitmate claim that we should have all codexs of SM in one codex..... You know how freaking long that would be? The lore alone would be 3/4 of it.
*walks out*

It's always worked for the Chaos Space Marines

Vaktathi wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:SUPER CODEX HAS COME TO SAVE THE DAY!
Oh wait wrong thread. When I read this I thought it was a joke, But apparently its a legitmate claim that we should have all codexs of SM in one codex..... You know how freaking long that would be? The lore alone would be 3/4 of it.
*walks out*

It's always worked for the Chaos Space Marines

OH really?

Asherian Command wrote:SUPER CODEX HAS COME TO SAVE THE DAY!
Oh wait wrong thread. When I read this I thought it was a joke, But apparently its a legitmate claim that we should have all codexs of SM in one codex..... You know how freaking long that would be? The lore alone would be 3/4 of it.
*walks out*

Not if you cut out most of the lore, and put it into BL novels. I put five core chapters plus a good variant list creation into one 64 page book.

Asherian Command wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:SUPER CODEX HAS COME TO SAVE THE DAY!
Oh wait wrong thread. When I read this I thought it was a joke, But apparently its a legitmate claim that we should have all codexs of SM in one codex..... You know how freaking long that would be? The lore alone would be 3/4 of it.
*walks out*

It's always worked for the Chaos Space Marines

OH really?

yes, I hear it was quite popular, it was part of why I thought of this.

Mr Nobody wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:SUPER CODEX HAS COME TO SAVE THE DAY!
Oh wait wrong thread. When I read this I thought it was a joke, But apparently its a legitmate claim that we should have all codexs of SM in one codex..... You know how freaking long that would be? The lore alone would be 3/4 of it.
*walks out*

It's always worked for the Chaos Space Marines

OH really?

yes, I hear it was quite popular, it was part of why I thought of this.

Sory I can't see this happening, GW would not allow the diversity of units and different customs of the chapter get lost. I cannot see this happening and thats all I am going to say about the subject.

The different customs of chapters needn't be lost, the vast majority aren't even reflected in the game, and between 5 loyalist books they share like 80% of the same units just outright, closer to 95% if you include variations (e.g. Ironclad to Furioso) so there's not exactly too much diversity to lose there.

If the *far* more diverse and varied Chaos Space Marines can make do with one book (is one really going to argue that BA's are more different from UM's than Thousand Sons are from Night Lords or Death Guard or the Black Legion?), I'm sure the 5 loyalist marine books can be amalgamated.

Vaktathi wrote:The different customs of chapters needn't be lost, the vast majority aren't even reflected in the game, and between 5 loyalist books they share like 80% of the same units just outright, closer to 95% if you include variations (e.g. Ironclad to Furioso) so there's not exactly too much diversity to lose there.

If the *far* more diverse and varied Chaos Space Marines can make do with one book, I'm sure the 5 loyalist marine books can be amalgamated.

You forgot alot of units. Space Wolves differ the most. Only ones I can see being merged are the Dark Angels and Regular Marines. Blood Angels are need on their own. And Black Templars differ from every chapter.

Asherian Command wrote:
You forgot alot of units. Space Wolves differ the most.

They get Counterattack and a CCW, along with a giant wolf unit. They have Scouts, they have their Vets and Terminators, they have all the same vehicles, they have their simply renamed iterations of Librarians, Chaplains and Techpriest, they have their Tac equivalents, their jump pack troops, their bikers and their devestators. None of these are significantly different enough that they couldn't be changed with less work than changed or adapted. You're talking about slight stat or wargear variations on common units. They could easily be covered in a sublist, WD article, of FW book/list.

They are certainly no more different from C:SM than say, Emperor's Children from Thousand Sons or Word Bearers which have always shared a book.

Blood Angels are need on their own.

Why? Port to C:SM. Give options for Fast vehicles in a BA sublist or unlock from a BA HQ, and allow Assault Marines as troops by the same token. Furioso's and Ironclads honestly are for the most part the same thing, dual DCCW combat walkers with frontal AV13, throw in an librarian option. Baal preds are just a weapon swap on normal preds, easily combined in with the HQ unlock.

BA's share outright over 80% of their units with C:SM, even more their weapons, and the core underlying special rules of the army (ATSKNF, Combat Squads). That's not something that needs its own dedicated codex, that's a WD article or FW list.

And Black Templars differ from every chapter.

How? Functionally they have a couple army wide rules (vows) that are as replacable and muteable as the 4E Traits, Doctrines were, and far less than the CSM Legion sublists. When it comes to the actual army list, the only real difference is they have the Emperor's Champion (a simple 2 wound combat character that's relativley easy to port) and then mixed Scout/Tac squads as troops.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:SUPER CODEX HAS COME TO SAVE THE DAY!
Oh wait wrong thread. When I read this I thought it was a joke, But apparently its a legitmate claim that we should have all codexs of SM in one codex..... You know how freaking long that would be? The lore alone would be 3/4 of it.
*walks out*

Not if you cut out most of the lore, and put it into BL novels. I put five core chapters plus a good variant list creation into one 64 page book.

And it will still come down to what Just Dave posted, to be frank about it.

"I'm paying $XX for my army book--and I only use about 20% of it!".

That doesn't seem to hurt many other gaming companies, and it also assumes that only 20% of the book is useable, which probably isn't an accurate measure at all. Again, these armies share the overwhelmingly vast majority of their units, statline, weapons, wargear, equipment and vehicles, their "unique" stuff pales in comparison to all the common stuff they share.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Codex New Space Marines

SNIP

The key to this book is several things.

1. No duplication of equipment and army lists.
2. A lot of historical fluff is deleted and put into Black Library books, thus increasing sales.
3. Don’t try too hard to give every chapter dozens of special rules and characters.
4. Fewer pictures.

I like it, I like it a lot. They could even expand it with tons more fluff and picture and even throw in some more random SM rules for the sake of being the poster boys and still fit it in a current sized and priced codex.