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Vaktathi wrote:That doesn't seem to hurt many other gaming companies

Which other companies are we talking about here?

Because Warmachine, Starship Troopers, etc all went from having 'everything in one book' towards having individual army books.

and it also assumes that only 20% of the book is useable, which probably isn't an accurate measure at all. Again, these armies share the overwhelmingly vast majority of their units, statline, weapons, wargear, equipment and vehicles, their "unique" stuff pales in comparison to all the common stuff they share.

Fwoosh. Again, right over your head.

No matter how you cut it, there's going to be waste.

We'll use KK's "super codex" idea. 2 Dark Angels characters(likely Sammael and Belial, ditching Azrael and Ezekiel) which 'unlock' the specialist Deathwing and Ravenwing formations.

Those two formations do not field anything outside of the 1st Company Terminators or 2nd Company 'Rapid Strike(for lack of a better term)' vehicles like bikes and Land Speeders.

So what the hell is the point of buying this big huge army book for a Dark Angels player?

Vaktathi wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
You forgot alot of units. Space Wolves differ the most.

They get Counterattack and a CCW, along with a giant wolf unit. They have Scouts, they have their Vets and Terminators, they have all the same vehicles, they have their simply renamed iterations of Librarians, Chaplains and Techpriest, they have their Tac equivalents, their jump pack troops, their bikers and their devestators. None of these are significantly different enough that they couldn't be changed with less work than changed or adapted. You're talking about slight stat or wargear variations on common units. They could easily be covered in a sublist, WD article, of FW book/list.

They are certainly no more different from C:SM than say, Emperor's Children from Thousand Sons or Word Bearers which have always shared a book.

Blood Angels are need on their own.

Why? Port to C:SM. Give options for Fast vehicles in a BA sublist or unlock from a BA HQ, and allow Assault Marines as troops by the same token. Furioso's and Ironclads honestly are for the most part the same thing, dual DCCW combat walkers with frontal AV13, throw in an librarian option. Baal preds are just a weapon swap on normal preds, easily combined in with the HQ unlock.

BA's share outright over 80% of their units with C:SM, even more their weapons, and the core underlying special rules of the army (ATSKNF, Combat Squads). That's not something that needs its own dedicated codex, that's a WD article or FW list.

And Black Templars differ from every chapter.

How? Functionally they have a couple army wide rules (vows) that are as replacable and muteable as the 4E Traits, Doctrines were, and far less than the CSM Legion sublists. When it comes to the actual army list, the only real difference is they have the Emperor's Champion (a simple 2 wound combat character that's relativley easy to port) and then mixed Scout/Tac squads as troops.

So you want to fill this lets get this right, all the special characters from every chapter INTO ONE BOOK? Do you know how stupid and inefficient that sounds? Sorry to insult but seriously that is a very stupid idea. It doesn't make any sense to fit the Black Templars that have alot of different units, they do not have tactical squads, they do not have devastator squads, they do not have librarians, you can't pull all chapters into one book with one army list. THAT IS BAD. That will mean Space Wolves will be able to take Emperors Champion, do you have any idea that if they did this would ruin alot of the borders of armies. Each codex is meant to ensure other chapters can't just other codex's rules it will be a mess if we put all the special rules into one book.
What you need to think is how will this affect the history, lore and the chapter units themselves? Just because they are renamed does not make them similar. The only two codexes that can fit together in my mind are dark angels and blood angels. Ultramarines + Black Templars. and Space Wolves by themselves. Lets face it if you put two almost opposite chapters like these together it would make sense. But seperate them into different parts like half the book concentrates on dark angels and the other half the blood angels. Etc. It can't simply say you can't use this for this chapter. Because someone could claim to be another chapter that fits between both.
Plus I don't want to face someone that keeps changing their chapter roots due to their codex having all the space marine codexes in one. think of it this way. if they made sagas for all codexes then people would change them for every game. This is unfluffy and really unfair for other races. Because they may prepare for a Space Marine army that is shooty next second they have red raged marines and space wolves on them killing their entire gunline.

1hadhq wrote:
GW won't add anything in the open, just hidden cost that add up.
They won't give us a discount, I'd guess the whfb line of "heraldry books" could hint on GW adopting that and your "only different paint schemes" end up beeing
a basic codex ( with UM obviously ) and the rest needs that "SM heraldry book" which adds up to a combined cost of all the integrated SM codices + 10% price increase.

Methinks this is taking the GW "evil megacorp" thing a bit too far. When you're sharing 50%+ of the fluff, and 80% of the unit entries, there's not really that much more work to do or reason to make it that much. Also, GW's not going to make a codex costing twice what current books do (at least right now), and there's no good reason why a combined SM book *should* cost that much.

Oh we KNOW what happened to CSM 3.5.......
Plus, if its should be SM, the CSM belong into this. NO escape for traitorus scum.

Not quite sure what you mean here

Lets see, selling fewer basic products successfully vs supporting multiple lines of different products.

This is assuming that sales decrease, especially in the long run, and that the multiple lines aren't cannibalizing from each other and choking marketing/development support off from other products.

Vaktathi wrote:
Look, chaos legions ceased to exist in M33.
Your warbands may not deserve multiple codices, at least when 40k background is mostly traitor GUARD vs IoM.
The pre-heresy Legions were equally different, but this is M419999999999 now, the year that never moves on, precisely eternally pre-M42.

M33 precisely? Not M32 or M35? lets face it, the Legions may be fractured, but while some may be simple small groups of troops no more than a dozen or two strong, some remain quite unified. The Word Bearers for example are still quite whole, and the Iron Warriors Grand Companies that have split up still share a common homeworld for the most part and each one may be larger than most SM chapters.

Can't you see the time spent to design the storm(chibi)raven ?

Lets be honest, it's not hard to see that was a late development that probably wasn't initially planned. There's little mention of it in the book, no artwork, etc.

Oh noes, how can one claim the single codex at the start of a edition may become outdated if the following years of that edition are filled with other codices,
none of them ever cheesy, as the "bottom of the pile army" will surely be one of the last releases of that edition, right?

As it is, we either have Marine books in two or three different editions at a time, some always *vastly* oudated, and extending the time it takes to update *all* books. Just because it might not be the Über tourney army by the end of an edition doesn't mean it's really an issue. Lets be honest, C:SM is always the first book for any edition, it's never seen as trash by the end of an edition, except in relation to other Marine books, and is always immediately updated in the next edition. Combining them would solve many of these issues.

just replace the SM codices with codex : movie marines and all is well../

And have SM armies that are comprised of a single tac squad with a Rhino? That's a terrible business decision.

Not going to get into the debate side of things. I'd be for an all in one Space Marine Codex. Here's my rough outline...

Generic Space Marine Units

HQ - Chapter Masters, Captains, Chaplains & Librarians
Honour Guard & Command Squad
Elite - Terminator Squads, Veteran Squads & Dreadnoughts
Troops - Tactical Squads & Scouts (Transport Options)
Fast Attack - Assault Squads, Bike Squads & Landspeeder Squadrons
Heavy Support - Devastator Squads, Tanks and other Vehicles

Chapter Tactics

Different tactics for all major chapters similar to current codex. You would use the tactics of your chosen chapter e.g. Raven Guard would get fleet, Ultramarines would have their ability to fail a leadership test etc. This would take up two pages at most.

Special Characters

A series of special characters for the main codex chapters

Special Chapters

This would include the special characters & variant units for the three main oddball chapters, namely Blood Angels, Dark Angels & Space Wolves. Some of the current variations would need trimming down especially the Pups.

Kanluwen wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:That doesn't seem to hurt many other gaming companies

Which other companies are we talking about here?

Because Warmachine, Starship Troopers, etc all went from having 'everything in one book' towards having individual army books.

Flames of War comes immediately to mind. Books like Eastern Front, Fortress Europe, etc combining huge varieties of armies and nations into single books centered around a specific theater of war.

Fwoosh. Again, right over your head.

Hooray for Ad Hominem arguments!

No matter how you cut it, there's going to be waste.

We'll use KK's "super codex" idea. 2 Dark Angels characters(likely Sammael and Belial, ditching Azrael and Ezekiel) which 'unlock' the specialist Deathwing and Ravenwing formations.

Those two formations do not field anything outside of the 1st Company Terminators or 2nd Company 'Rapid Strike(for lack of a better term)' vehicles like bikes and Land Speeders.

So what the hell is the point of buying this big huge army book for a Dark Angels player?

The Deathwing and Ravenwing fight alone, without the support of any other units in the chapter at all all time every time?

How many DA players play Deathwing or Ravenwing exclusively now with nothing but Deathwing or Ravenwing units now? I can't recall a single one in years. I see lots of Double-wing, usually some sort of HS units for fire support. I don't ever recall seeing a pure Ravenwing army ever.


Also, from this line of argument, it would seem DA players are already only using 20% of their book, so what's the problem? Should Dark Angels should consist of nothing but Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing units? Cut out the Tac squads, scouts, vets, tanks, other HQ's, etc?

Asherian Command wrote:
So you want to fill this lets get this right, all the special characters from every chapter INTO ONE BOOK? Do you know how stupid and inefficient that sounds? Sorry to insult but seriously that is a very stupid idea

So you get a bountiful SC section that's broken down by Chapter. What's the problem? Hell, half of them could probably be replaced with generic HQ entries, characters like Hellbrecht who don't really have any army-wide bonuses and whose wargear isn't really all that out of the ordinary.

It doesn't make any sense to fit the Black Templars that have alot of different units, they do not have tactical squads, they do not have devastator squads, they do not have librarians, you can't pull all chapters into one book with one army list. THAT IS BAD

Black Templars have Crusader squads. They mix scouts and tacs into one unit, not hard to replicate and certainly not deserving of its own book. The fact that they don't have dev's or librarians is irrelevant as that could simply be left to player choice not to take or built into an army sublist or HQ unlock for BT's.

That will mean Space Wolves will be able to take Emperors Champion,

Or just call it a Lone Wolf or Wolf Guard Battle Brother. These are basically the same unit just dressed up differently. It's a 2W disposable specialized combat character that can cheaply lead an army if necessary.

What you need to think is how will this affect the history, lore and the chapter units themselves?

Probably not at all, just reprint the core background material on each major chapter, give a couple good examples of famous battles, and give some SC's and their background.

It can't simply say you can't use this for this chapter. Because someone could claim to be another chapter that fits between both.

Already happens, and if really necessary could be dealt with in the army list itself if sublists or HQ unlocks are involved.

Plus I don't want to face someone that keeps changing their chapter roots due to their codex having all the space marine codexes in one.

Guess what, that already happens all the time. It's nothing new, and isn't exactly uncommon by any means now. As long as you aren't painting your marines exactly like Blood Angels or Ultramarines or Black Templars, there's really little to even object to when this is done.

This is already a ubiquitous practice.

if they made sagas for all codexes then people would change them for every game.

Saga's are a disposable and/or mutable special rule, the type that comes and goes with each edition, just like Traits, Doctrines, Rites of Battle, psychic powers (how many different powers have vanilla SM's had in three editions? practically nothing has remained constant) etc. They can be modified/renamed to be suitable for all SM armies or ditched and in the greater scheme of things aren't necessary to the inherent feel of Space Wolves.

This is unfluffy and really unfair for other races. Because they may prepare for a Space Marine army that is shooty next second they have red raged marines and space wolves on them killing their entire gunline.

Again, this already happens, nothing new.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:SUPER CODEX HAS COME TO SAVE THE DAY!
Oh wait wrong thread. When I read this I thought it was a joke, But apparently its a legitmate claim that we should have all codexs of SM in one codex..... You know how freaking long that would be? The lore alone would be 3/4 of it.
*walks out*

Not if you cut out most of the lore, and put it into BL novels. I put five core chapters plus a good variant list creation into one 64 page book.

And it will still come down to what Just Dave posted, to be frank about it.

"I'm paying $XX for my army book--and I only use about 20% of it!".

But that's what happens at the moment, if you don't need the fluff in an SM book. (Most other codexes too for that matter.)

In fact it's worse, because of the amount of duplicated material.

My way, anyone wanting to look up the SW or any other SM army can buy a single £15 book and have all five main armies plus the Trait chapters.

Your way, you need to buy £75 of books and you don't get any Trait chapters.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:That doesn't seem to hurt many other gaming companies

Which other companies are we talking about here?

Because Warmachine, Starship Troopers, etc all went from having 'everything in one book' towards having individual army books.

Flames of War comes immediately to mind. Books like Eastern Front, Fortress Europe, etc combining huge varieties of armies and nations into single books centered around a specific theater of war.

Fwoosh. Again, right over your head.

Hooray for Ad Hominem arguments!

No matter how you cut it, there's going to be waste.

We'll use KK's "super codex" idea. 2 Dark Angels characters(likely Sammael and Belial, ditching Azrael and Ezekiel) which 'unlock' the specialist Deathwing and Ravenwing formations.

Those two formations do not field anything outside of the 1st Company Terminators or 2nd Company 'Rapid Strike(for lack of a better term)' vehicles like bikes and Land Speeders.

So what the hell is the point of buying this big huge army book for a Dark Angels player?

The Deathwing and Ravenwing fight alone, without the support of any other units in the chapter at all all time every time?

How many DA players play Deathwing or Ravenwing exclusively now with nothing but Deathwing or Ravenwing units now? I can't recall a single one in years. I see lots of Double-wing, usually some sort of HS units for fire support. I don't ever recall seeing a pure Ravenwing army ever.


Also, from this line of argument, it would seem DA players are already only using 20% of their book, so what's the problem? Should Dark Angels should consist of nothing but Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing units? Cut out the Tac squads, scouts, vets, tanks, other HQ's, etc?

Asherian Command wrote:
So you want to fill this lets get this right, all the special characters from every chapter INTO ONE BOOK? Do you know how stupid and inefficient that sounds? Sorry to insult but seriously that is a very stupid idea

So you get a bountiful SC section that's broken down by Chapter. What's the problem? Hell, half of them could probably be replaced with generic HQ entries, characters like Hellbrecht who don't really have any army-wide bonuses and whose wargear isn't really all that out of the ordinary.

It doesn't make any sense to fit the Black Templars that have alot of different units, they do not have tactical squads, they do not have devastator squads, they do not have librarians, you can't pull all chapters into one book with one army list. THAT IS BAD

Black Templars have Crusader squads. They mix scouts and tacs into one unit, not hard to replicate and certainly not deserving of its own book. The fact that they don't have dev's or librarians is irrelevant as that could simply be left to player choice not to take or built into an army sublist or HQ unlock for BT's.

That will mean Space Wolves will be able to take Emperors Champion,

Or just call it a Lone Wolf or Wolf Guard Battle Brother. These are basically the same unit just dressed up differently. It's a 2W disposable specialized combat character that can cheaply lead an army if necessary.

What you need to think is how will this affect the history, lore and the chapter units themselves?

Probably not at all, just reprint the core background material on each major chapter, give a couple good examples of famous battles, and give some SC's and their background.

It can't simply say you can't use this for this chapter. Because someone could claim to be another chapter that fits between both.

Already happens, and if really necessary could be dealt with in the army list itself if sublists or HQ unlocks are involved.

Plus I don't want to face someone that keeps changing their chapter roots due to their codex having all the space marine codexes in one.

Guess what, that already happens all the time. It's nothing new, and isn't exactly uncommon by any means now. As long as you aren't painting your marines exactly like Blood Angels or Ultramarines or Black Templars, there's really little to even object to when this is done.

This is already a ubiquitous practice.

if they made sagas for all codexes then people would change them for every game.

Saga's are a disposable and/or mutable special rule, the type that comes and goes with each edition, just like Traits, Doctrines, Rites of Battle, psychic powers (how many different powers have vanilla SM's had in three editions? practically nothing has remained constant) etc. They can be modified/renamed to be suitable for all SM armies or ditched and in the greater scheme of things aren't necessary to the inherent feel of Space Wolves.

This is unfluffy and really unfair for other races. Because they may prepare for a Space Marine army that is shooty next second they have red raged marines and space wolves on them killing their entire gunline.

Again, this already happens, nothing new.

not going to lie but I feel insulted >.< Your lack of lore and history has completely destroyed my efforts to actually agree with you at all. I find your post very untrue to what space marines do. The combiniations of different culture chapters is dumb. Its like putting together Guardsmen into a space marine book. That is a NO.
Emperors Champion DOES NOT = Lone Wolves. Lone Wolves are 1st company +3 save not a Emperors Champion that has a +2 save. You cannot put two opposite units into one profile.
Helbrich is an old character that needs an update and the Chaplain has many different things, not only that but its the feel of each chapter that you need to remember. The fluff is the main reason why I go into 40k. It is a really bad idea to mix these chapters that should not be used with each chapter.
Plus we are discussing something that will never happen.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:SUPER CODEX HAS COME TO SAVE THE DAY!
Oh wait wrong thread. When I read this I thought it was a joke, But apparently its a legitmate claim that we should have all codexs of SM in one codex..... You know how freaking long that would be? The lore alone would be 3/4 of it.
*walks out*

Not if you cut out most of the lore, and put it into BL novels. I put five core chapters plus a good variant list creation into one 64 page book.

And it will still come down to what Just Dave posted, to be frank about it.

"I'm paying $XX for my army book--and I only use about 20% of it!".

But that's what happens at the moment, if you don't need the fluff in an SM book. (Most other codexes too for that matter.)

In fact it's worse, because of the amount of duplicated material.

My way, anyone wanting to look up the SW or any other SM army can buy a single £15 book and have all five main armies plus the Trait chapters.

Your way, you need to buy £75 of books and you don't get any Trait chapters.

No, with my way you get a single army that you're actually interested in.
Speaking as a Dark Angels player?
I don't give a crap about the rest of the Astartes. If I buy the Codex associated with an army--I buy it because I'm actually interested in that army.

With your way, I'm stuck with a ton of crap in the form of Chapter Traits for the other "Founding Legions" that will likely never be useful to me.

Are you not interested in finding out about your opponents' armies?

Not enough to buy the Codex in most cases, no.

Plus: unless they've got something to hide(i.e., they're not actually playing 'by the book') they'll have it on hand to let me look at.

Asherian Command wrote:
not going to lie but I feel insulted >.< Your lack of lore and history has completely destroyed my efforts to actually agree with you at all. I find your post very untrue to what space marines do. The combiniations of different culture chapters is dumb. Its like putting together Guardsmen into a space marine book. That is a NO.

Besides a lot of emotion and shouting "no", and cries that I don't know the lore and history of the Space Marines (I've got all the 2E SM books but SW's sitting here, all the 3E ones, the index astartes articles, and the 4E/5E books within reach, I've read them all), what exactly is so terrible?

Emperors Champion DOES NOT = Lone Wolves. Lone Wolves are 1st company +3 save not a Emperors Champion that has a +2 save.

The difference in save is the thing that's killing it here?

Take generic 2W character, look through available upgrade options. Give it artificer armor and master crafted relic blade and an Iron Halo. You have Emperor's Champion! Take generic 2W character, give Stormshield and powerweapon, Lone Wolf!

If you're going to get that upset and nitpicky over tiny little differences that change from edition to edition with each update, nothing is ever going to seem right, not even an updated codex just for that one faction.

You cannot put two opposite units into one profile.

They aren't opposite. We're talking about a couple minor differences in stats, something you could build out of a common platform. Take a base WS5 BS4 S4 T4 I5 A2 Ld9 3+sv statline, and add wargear/special rules packages from there. Does there really, truly need to be a distinct special entry for such units?

Helbrich is an old character that needs an update

He's a character because the BT's got their own book and needed a named chapter master, he's not old like Mephiston, Calgar, Tigurius, or Tycho (unless I'm not remembering something, I concede I could be wrong but IIRC he has his origins in the early 2000's not the mid or early 90's). He could easily be done using a standard Chapter Master generic entry, especially as he is now.

Kanluwen wrote:With your way, I'm stuck with a ton of crap in the form of Chapter Traits for the other "Founding Legions" that will likely never be useful to me.

Getting all the info on the other very similar armies and ability to play them if you choose in addition to that of your own army, in one package, ideally with lots of fluff and cool artwork, doesn't exactly sound like a terrible thing. I'd be willing to pay for that. Especially as, in the grand scheme of things, it's a one time payment that will last for 4-5 years, and would mean I have the rules for a large number of armies in a *single* book, and not have to worry about random updates over multiple editions for multiple SM armies with multiple rules for common wargear and having to reference and/or buy multiple books.

Shooty-but-assaulty marines need a separate codex from marines that are simply assaulty-but-shooty. They are completely different armies. One has a unit that shoots, but is good at assaulting, while the other has a unit that assaults, but is good at shooting.

Further, these should be separate from the vanilla marines who are shooty or assaulty, as this army allows you to choose between shooty-but-assaulty units or assaulty-but-shooty units.

Completely different.

Also, one time on planet XXX four marines from the shooty-but-assaulty guys wiped out an entire heretic civilization, while on planet YYY four marines from a completely different, assaulty-but-shooty, army wiped out an entire civilization that had devolved into heresy.

Therefore, for fluff reasons alone, shooty-but-assaulty marines need a different codex from assaulty-but-shooty marines, and also from your average run-of-the-mill shooty-and-assaulty marines.

This should be self evident because it's been done before.

biccat wrote:Shooty-but-assaulty marines need a separate codex from marines that are simply assaulty-but-shooty. They are completely different armies. One has a unit that shoots, but is good at assaulting, while the other has a unit that assaults, but is good at shooting.

Further, these should be separate from the vanilla marines who are shooty or assaulty, as this army allows you to choose between shooty-but-assaulty units or assaulty-but-shooty units.

Completely different.

Also, one time on planet XXX four marines from the shooty-but-assaulty guys wiped out an entire heretic civilization, while on planet YYY four marines from a completely different, assaulty-but-shooty, army wiped out an entire civilization that had devolved into heresy.

Therefore, for fluff reasons alone, shooty-but-assaulty marines need a different codex from assaulty-but-shooty marines, and also from your average run-of-the-mill shooty-and-assaulty marines.

This should be self evident because it's been done before.

This sounds like alot like Vaktathi. As it seems that he has a simlar writing style. This i found very stupid mate. You are basically making me want to insult every single movie, plot ever made.
So you are going to insult the horus heresy? That can be described in one sentence. And Many people will find your post very insulting. And you are insulting me as a player. Good DAY SIR!

Asherian Command wrote:not going to lie but I feel insulted >.< Your lack of lore and history has completely destroyed my efforts to actually agree with you at all. I find your post very untrue to what space marines do. The combiniations of different culture chapters is dumb. Its like putting together Guardsmen into a space marine book. That is a NO.
Emperors Champion DOES NOT = Lone Wolves. Lone Wolves are 1st company +3 save not a Emperors Champion that has a +2 save. You cannot put two opposite units into one profile.
Helbrich is an old character that needs an update and the Chaplain has many different things, not only that but its the feel of each chapter that you need to remember. The fluff is the main reason why I go into 40k. It is a really bad idea to mix these chapters that should not be used with each chapter.
Plus we are discussing something that will never happen.

It's a touch hypocritical to accuse someone of having no lore when you claim that Lone Wolves are 1st company although SW don't have a 1st company.

This sounds like alot like Vaktathi. As it seems that he has a simlar writing style. This i found very stupid mate. You are basically making me want to insult every single movie, plot ever made.
So you are going to insult the horus heresy? That can be described in one sentence. And Many people will find your post very insulting. And you are insulting me as a player. Good DAY SIR!

It's not me.

And you also are having a gross overreaction to a simple case of intentionally unsubtle instance of humorous internet hyperbole.

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:not going to lie but I feel insulted >.< Your lack of lore and history has completely destroyed my efforts to actually agree with you at all. I find your post very untrue to what space marines do. The combiniations of different culture chapters is dumb. Its like putting together Guardsmen into a space marine book. That is a NO.
Emperors Champion DOES NOT = Lone Wolves. Lone Wolves are 1st company +3 save not a Emperors Champion that has a +2 save. You cannot put two opposite units into one profile.
Helbrich is an old character that needs an update and the Chaplain has many different things, not only that but its the feel of each chapter that you need to remember. The fluff is the main reason why I go into 40k. It is a really bad idea to mix these chapters that should not be used with each chapter.
Plus we are discussing something that will never happen.

It's a touch hypocritical to accuse someone of having no lore when you calim that Lone Wolves are 1st company although SW don't have a 1st company.

well wolf Guard. They are what become the Wolf guard are the lone wolves. They go out and kill until they feel like they have done their job and come back and become Wolf Guard
Plus I was talking about how he wants to put all these chapters that ARE all culturally different into one book and I find that kinda of ignorant.

Vaktathi wrote:It's not me.

And you also are having a gross overreaction to a simple case of intentionally unsubtle instance of humorous internet hyperbole.

If i find insulting then why would I want to read it? Plus its a form I know that. You guys are probably hundreds of miles away from me. Plus at least I AM not writing BLAME THE VICTIM.
Just saying I found it kinda of ignorant and very insulting.

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:not going to lie but I feel insulted >.< Your lack of lore and history has completely destroyed my efforts to actually agree with you at all. I find your post very untrue to what space marines do. The combiniations of different culture chapters is dumb. Its like putting together Guardsmen into a space marine book. That is a NO.
Emperors Champion DOES NOT = Lone Wolves. Lone Wolves are 1st company +3 save not a Emperors Champion that has a +2 save. You cannot put two opposite units into one profile.
Helbrich is an old character that needs an update and the Chaplain has many different things, not only that but its the feel of each chapter that you need to remember. The fluff is the main reason why I go into 40k. It is a really bad idea to mix these chapters that should not be used with each chapter.
Plus we are discussing something that will never happen.

It's a touch hypocritical to accuse someone of having no lore when you calim that Lone Wolves are 1st company although SW don't have a 1st company.

well wolf Guard. They are what become the Wolf guard are the lone wolves. They go out and kill until they feel like they have done their job and come back and become Wolf Guard
Plus I was talking about how he wants to put all these chapters that ARE all culturally different into one book and I find that kinda of ignorant.

Anyone can become Wolfguard. The point of a Lone Wolf is he has no pack and therefore no status in a Great Company so he sets out to either die or kill a big creature/person to become a Wolfguard.

Asherian Command wrote:
Plus I was talking about how he wants to put all these chapters that ARE all culturally different into one book and I find that kinda of ignorant.

You are assuming that because I want to combine them that I am ignorant of their background, which is just as ignorant an insulting (well, I'm over it really )

I just think this can all be done in a single book.

Again, even at their most diverse, Chaos Space Marines, which are far different from each other than the loyalist books are, shared a single book.

If i find insulting then why would I want to read it? Plus its a form I know that. You guys are probably hundreds of miles away from me. Plus at least I AM not writing BLAME THE VICTIM.
Just saying I found it kinda of ignorant and very insulting.

Then either don't read it or don't respond to it if it bothers you that much, and don't make insults at other posters when doing so.

Vaktathi wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Plus I was talking about how he wants to put all these chapters that ARE all culturally different into one book and I find that kinda of ignorant.

You are assuming that because I want to combine them that I am ignorant of their background, which is just as ignorant an insulting (well, I'm over it really )

I just think this can all be done in a single book.

Again, even at their most diverse, Chaos Space Marines, which are far different from each other than the loyalist books are, shared a single book.

If i find insulting then why would I want to read it? Plus its a form I know that. You guys are probably hundreds of miles away from me. Plus at least I AM not writing BLAME THE VICTIM.
Just saying I found it kinda of ignorant and very insulting.

Then either don't read it or don't respond to it if it bothers you that much, and don't make insults at other posters when doing so.

Yeah but lets not forget the Chaos Legions are now warbands, no longer full pledged legions. The thousand sons are no longer together. And that and they are all controled by chaos and they all use Daemons. That and they are mean't for warbands and that and they needed to be tuned down a bit and GW could afford to make more codexs.
And mate. I called you ignorant in that aspect. I am sorry if it insulted you. But the Blame the Victim thing is needed.

Personally i think it would be easily possible.
The use of special rules and unlockable options would make it possible...
If they managed it, it would hopefully open up all the other codeci such as the CSM, IG and Eldar codex.

Chaos Legions all in one book had just as much diversity as the current spinoff SM Codexes, largely because they had unlockable units (Servo Arms, Basilisk and Vindicators for Iron Warriors, Cultists for Alpha Legion, The Accursed Crozius for Dark Apostles for Word Bearers. On the Books of Chaos Side, Death Guard and Noise Marine Havocs, Noise Dreadnoughts, Rubric Terminators, Destroyer Rhinos, etc...) and different FoC organisation (Daemonbomb Word Bearers played very differently than Siege Iron Warrior, who was even more different than the headstrong and rushing Khornate Armies).

All of that with the simple addition of a cheaper or free Veteran Skill, one or two unlockable units, and a different FoC organisation. Same goes for the 4th Ed SM codex, which a simple Chapter Traits system made Iron Hands different from White Scars. They also didnt take up that much space in the codex either. Iron Warriors were just as different as Blood Angels, and all it took for them was one extra page of fluff and rules. Sure they had two vehicles which weren't in the codex, but they took up no more than another half-page to get the rules in (and possibly not even that now, as the Vindicator became a standard Chaos vehicle).

All of it's completely do-able. It might even get rid of some of the cheese, as GW might not feel as pressured to put in some of the more ridiculous units just to make each codex stand out a little more. But it's just not profitable. GW would not get as much money selling you one compiled book as they would selling you three books, containing Dreadnought Clsoe Combat Weapons and Lightning Claws, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons and Wolf Claws, or Blood Fist and Lightning Claws.

I think it would be a good idea.

And could this thing PLEASE have a poll? it would be good to see what the majority would like.

Some people are just convinced that one color of dudes in power armor with bolters and chain swords actually are different from another color of dudes in power armor with bolters and chain swords. There's really no reasoning with them, and thus they will never admit that it's amazingly simple to put every marine codex into one codex and not have it be a single cent more expensive or a single page longer than they already are.

That's just the way it is. They actually believe their color of dudes is different. No amount of your silly evidence will ever convince them. They already believe it and you're wrong in their mind. *shrug* Nothing you can do.

SumYungGui wrote:Some people are just convinced that one color of dudes in power armor with bolters and chain swords actually are different from another color of dudes in power armor with bolters and chain swords. There's really no reasoning with them, and thus they will never admit that it's amazingly simple to put every marine codex into one codex and not have it be a single cent more expensive or a single page longer than they already are.
That's just the way it is. They actually believe their color of dudes is different. No amount of your silly evidence will ever convince them. They already believe it and you're wrong in their mind. *shrug* Nothing you can do.

Nobody believes "the color of dudes is different, thus needs a codex!". If it went like that, we'd have had Yellow and Gray Marine codices years ago.
It's the background, signature units, characters, and more that has always made them different.

My Dark Angels have always had a very different background and playstyle than the standard Codex Marines or the Space Wolves or Blood Angels or Black Templars.
They're also one of the most interesting aspects of the Imperium at large.

It's GW's fault they did a piss-poor job underlining that fact. I could have done a more characterful and unique Dark Angels codex in a manner of weeks than the piece of crap copy/paste fest they produced. They could have gone into any number of parts of the background and expounded upon them, or fleshed out new characters, etc.

But they didn't. They half-assed it because they did "Codex: Dark Angels" as an experiment, a test run prior to the actual Codex: Space Marines.

Vaktathi wrote:Methinks this is taking the GW "evil megacorp" thing a bit too far. When you're sharing 50%+ of the fluff, and 80% of the unit entries, there's not really that much more work to do or reason to make it that much. Also, GW's not going to make a codex costing twice what current books do (at least right now), and there's no good reason why a combined SM book *should* cost that much.

I'll provide a listing of the amount of space used for fluff, unit entrys, etc later.
For now, separate books are neccessary to keep even partially wat is there yet. At least 1 codex and 1 "expansion" or watever you want to call it.
Price = codex + "ex" = codex x3. Minimum.

Vaktathi wrote:

Oh we KNOW what happened to CSM 3.5.......
Plus, if its should be SM, the CSM belong into this. NO escape for traitorus scum.

Not quite sure what you mean here

Look at my page list for how it can be done in 64 pages.

Asherian Command wrote:This sounds like alot like Vaktathi. As it seems that he has a simlar writing style. This i found very stupid mate. You are basically making me want to insult every single movie, plot ever made.
So you are going to insult the horus heresy? That can be described in one sentence. And Many people will find your post very insulting. And you are insulting me as a player. Good DAY SIR!

I'm confused, how does that lead to you insulting every movie plot ever made? Given that there are only 7 basic plots, it's not hard to make an argument that everything is repeated somewhere.

First, from a game perspective, most marine armies are indistinguishable. Blue Marines get just about the same number of choices as Grey, Red, Black, or Green Marines. The deck is shuffled around a little more for all the different colors, but there's little to distinguish them.

Besides, the fluff says that the Emperor, through His Most Holy Deck of Playing Cards, has decreed that everyone follow the Blue Marines' force org anyway. Are you defying the Emperor?

Second, from a fluff perspective, the differences between most of the SM Legions (and successor chapters) is minimal. After the Heresy, several (most) of the Loyalist Legions were decimated, and were barely salvaged by Roboute, who organized ALL of the legions into chapters according to the Ultramarine model. Any differences therefore are entirely based on differences in the gene-seed and a few holdover traditions.

In contrast, the Chaos Legions maintained much of their original characters, surviving well the Heresy (better than the Loyalists at least). The differences in their gene-seeds and traditions are at least as strong as the differences between individual SM legions, and likely stronger due to the lack of quality control and the warping effects of living in the EoT.

In conclusion, the only reason for separate codexes for the SM is because of GW-manufactured differences that don't make any sense from either a marketing perspective or from a fluff perspective. The difference, in both fluff and purported play style, between the World Eaters and Death Guard is far more profound than any difference between the Space Wolves and Dark Angels.

Yet somehow CSM has survived as a viable army for a long time with one Codex. And on an army-population-per-codex basis, are probably better than SM.

That said, I don't think SM deserve one codex, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. They should have 2, one for basic Blue Marines, and one for alternative/other chapters, like the Orks/Feral, Eldar/Craftworld, or IG/Catachans sets.

Not only would it give more flexibility to units, it would allow other codices to be updated quicker. Maybe regular updates of armies, or more variety in armies, would bring more people into the game.

While it would work (with variations and special rules for the various chapters), it would make GW less money. GW is a business, they need to make money. Ergo, multiple codecies.

micahaphone wrote:While it would work (with variations and special rules for the various chapters), it would make GW less money. GW is a business, they need to make money. Ergo, multiple codecies.

Why would they necessarily make less money?

Kilkrazy wrote:Look at my page list for how it can be done in 64 pages.

( had to dig a bit as some posters were so engaged in a debate your post nearly gone missed...)

This?

Codex New Space Marines

Chapter 1
The original foundings and making of a Spam. 6 pages. Cut down 10 pages to 6?

Chapter 2
Ultramarines, with a bit of fluff, special characters and rules. 5 pages (2 fluff, 2 characters, 1 rules) cut down 20 pages to 5?

Chapter 3
How to make variant chapters using Traits. The variant traits are used to make the four following chapters, but there are more traits available to make more variations. 12 pages. cherrypicking ensues....

Chapter 4
Dark Angels, with a bit of fluff, special characters and rules. 5 pages (2 fluff, 2 characters, 1 rules) cut down 19 pages to 5?

Chapter 5
Space Wolves, with a bit of fluff, special characters and rules. 5 pages (2 fluff, 2 characters, 1 rules) cut down 23 pages to 5?

Chapter 6
Black Templars, with a bit of fluff, special characters and rules. 5 pages (2 fluff, 2 characters, 1 rules)cut down 10 pages to 5?

Chapter 7
Blood Angels, with a bit of fluff, special characters and rules. 5 pages (2 fluff, 2 characters, 1 rules)cut down 24 pages to 5?

Chapter 8
All of the equipment and troop lists. 10 pages. cut equipment from 8 to ? Cut lists from 14 to ? See, can't have 22 pages cut to 10 without deleting tons of equipment and troops. Really?

Chapter 9
Hobby section. 5 pages. cut from 15 to 5?

Chapter 10
Quick Reference Sheets. 6 pages Reference sheets are where mistakes lurk...

Sorry, this isn't even remotely keeping half of the models "legal", drops the fluff in swathes and does not allow to control and balance the builds.
It is a way to reduce the fluff, the SC and the hobby section along with existing models.

As an example, if you cut:
- painting 70 pages,
- specific wargear 5 pages
- illustrations 4 pages
- HH 6-8 pages
- fluff 75 pages
- > thus half of the 311 I counted, youre left with another 150-60 pages, not 64, even losing all of the above.
A simplyfied rules&units&basic info& lists codex. Uninspiring and maybe not even worth the usual price of a codex.

If you claim, the traits will cover the units, sorry existing models are hard to discount. Basic units alone eat 11-14 pages without SC and without chapter specific
units around. Your 10 pages can't even keep the common units in the game.

5th ed also uses pages to explain units and the rules for them. Part of what in your codex?
So 6th ed doesn't IYO?

Basic equipment needs 3-4 pages. You have to have 20 pages and invest just 10. Somehow this dex will lack the size to print the text in a readable font IMHO.

Or is the trick to have 64 pages A0 format?