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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Gridge wrote:I believe it is merely a matter of writers not really keeping consistent with the fluff. This is the way with many other issues as well. Take the face that it used to be considered fatal to look into an astropaths 3rd eye. While Bowden still keeps to this convention Counter and King (amongst others) do not. I do remember reading, somewhere that the glands continue to receive information from the host for as long as they are implanted so I guess leaving them in place could have some benefit if that is still the case fluff wise. In a related note, I've been reading Purging of Kadillus and there is a part in which the apothecary going over a list of marines deployed and mentions a few in the devastator and scout squads that have not had their progenoids extracted saying that it will be done once they are back with the Chapter.

There's no inconsistencey. Two Glands they can be removed before death. All this other stuff is just fan-theories that are completely wrong.

Anyways, I believe you are right about the fact that the progenoid gland is supposed to absorb genetic information from the host for as long as its in. Therefore leaving it in you supposedly have a better chance of improving your chapter by getting genes from a great hero of the chapter. Still not a good idea. Seriously doubt there's a SM Captain walking around with a progenoid gland. The benefits are minimal compared to the risk of actually losing it in battle.

Perhaps prematurely extracted gene-seed can be reused....

I know that the glands can be removed before death but some authors take the approach of having this done upon death only. It's not really just fan theories. Take Helsreach for example as being one of the newer ones, the apothecary harvested progenoids throughout the novel, from every marine he could get to, even the eldest in the crusade. There is even a casualty list at one point in the book that lists each of the deaths up to that point and if the gene-seed was recovered.

Grey Templar wrote:here is the important part.

after a gland is removed, it begins to grow back!!!

so every 5 years, each Marine can produce a new Progenoid gland(actual time may vary by individual)

This is complete rubbish with no support from fluff.

If the gland is removed how can it grow back? it is not a naturally developed organ, it has to be implanted in, so you would have to use a fully grown geneseed to produce the progeniod glands required to implant in after the mature ones are used (which would mean an initiate wouldn't get one).

Also all organs have to be added at a specefic age when the initiate is still not a true space marine, but not a true human.

Grey Templar wrote:not all progenoids are used to make Marines. most chapters have much more Geneseed stock that they actually use. some of it goes to Terra for Purity analysis

It isn't just used for purity checks, its used to found new chapters. One of the reasons that chapters have to give a gene-tithe is as a 'leash', capping the size of a chapter allows Terra to maintain a level of control on the space marines.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

purplefood wrote:Oddly enough this makes 40k much less grimdark...
SM geneseed floating about all over the shop now...

Each Space Marine can still only make 2 Space Marines. Still, explains why you can grow a whole chapter in like 48 years or something. Tis a tad less Grimdark.

No, less than one.

You need to implant two Progenoid glands in your SM candidate.

Not all SMs will survive to give up both glands -- for example, he might get blown to atoms by a melt gun or something like that.

Also, the SM candidates who fail, must poison their Progenoids, making them useless.

Logically, there must be an alternative source of Progenoids than SMs, as there is for all the other glands. Logically, this means there is no need to extract the Progenoids, so they have no logical purpose.

Gridge wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Gridge wrote:I believe it is merely a matter of writers not really keeping consistent with the fluff. This is the way with many other issues as well. Take the face that it used to be considered fatal to look into an astropaths 3rd eye. While Bowden still keeps to this convention Counter and King (amongst others) do not. I do remember reading, somewhere that the glands continue to receive information from the host for as long as they are implanted so I guess leaving them in place could have some benefit if that is still the case fluff wise. In a related note, I've been reading Purging of Kadillus and there is a part in which the apothecary going over a list of marines deployed and mentions a few in the devastator and scout squads that have not had their progenoids extracted saying that it will be done once they are back with the Chapter.

There's no inconsistencey. Two Glands they can be removed before death. All this other stuff is just fan-theories that are completely wrong.

Anyways, I believe you are right about the fact that the progenoid gland is supposed to absorb genetic information from the host for as long as its in. Therefore leaving it in you supposedly have a better chance of improving your chapter by getting genes from a great hero of the chapter. Still not a good idea. Seriously doubt there's a SM Captain walking around with a progenoid gland. The benefits are minimal compared to the risk of actually losing it in battle.

Perhaps prematurely extracted gene-seed can be reused....

I know that the glands can be removed before death but some authors take the approach of having this done upon death only. It's not really just fan theories. Take Helsreach for example as being one of the newer ones, the apothecary harvested progenoids throughout the novel, from every marine he could get to, even the eldest in the crusade. There is even a casualty list at one point in the book that lists each of the deaths up to that point and if the gene-seed was recovered.

Interesting, however Helreach stars the Black Templars who are not a good case study on this. In fact they are the worst. They are not really a chapter but a never-ending crusade. Unlike most chapters who try to keep their strength at about a 1000 they simply try to make as many marines as possible. They press brand new recruits into service at a higher rate than any other chapter and as a previous poster mentioned because they are constantly crusading they don't really take the time to sit down and go through the complicated chest gland removal surgery. I guess another way to put it is the Templars have a "whatever happens, happens" attitude towards the chest progenoid gland. It's not unusual for an individual crusades to fluctuate back and forth between 50-3000 Templars.

What are the progenoids actually supposed to do?

Kilkrazy wrote:

No, less than one.

You need to implant two Progenoid glands in your SM candidate.

Not all SMs will survive to give up both glands -- for example, he might get blown to atoms by a melt gun or something like that.

Also, the SM candidates who fail, must poison their Progenoids, making them useless.

Logically, there must be an alternative source of Progenoids than SMs, as there is for all the other glands. Logically, this means there is no need to extract the Progenoids, so they have no logical purpose.

There is no need?
Maybe no need to ignore the given fluff.

3 basic sources:

- the Emperor/ his labs ( founded the Legions )
- ad biologis ( stores samples and grows more geneseed if neccessary. Hints at mixing geneseeds in the "cursed founding" )
- the chapters themselves.

Thats all.

Kilkrazy wrote:What are the progenoids actually supposed to do?

They're the base for the next generations extra organs that give them all the cool superpowers

Kilkrazy wrote:What are the progenoids actually supposed to do?

Despite being the most central concept of Space Marines the background is pretty sparse on them. As I understand it it contains the seeds to grow the other 18 organs required for Astartes plus 2 more progenoids.

My understanding was that the progenoids release geneseeds which guide the maturation and development of the other glands.

As the other glands develop, they release geneseeds which are collected by the progenoids so that the next generation of glands can be guided by progenoids releasing geneseeds.

I've always assumed that Apothecaries are removing the original gland, which would make it 3 total.

This satisfies "each Marine can make 2 more". Each one produces 2 extra glands. The original gland can still be recovered when the original Marine isn't using it any longer (because he's dead). This wouldn't be 1 Marine making 3 Marines, since there's always subtraction of one Marine in there. 1 + 2 - 1 = 2.

Kilkrazy wrote:My understanding was that the progenoids release geneseeds which guide the maturation and development of the other glands.

As the other glands develop, they release geneseeds which are collected by the progenoids so that the next generation of glands can be guided by progenoids releasing geneseeds.

No, Progenoid glands only come from progenoid glands and each gland can only produce 2 glands (so a net gain of 1 every 10 years). All the other organs are actually implanted the old fashioned way: with a scalpal in an OR. There's a lot of them so they can't do them all at once. The whole thing takes about 4 years.

codex: ultramarines, 5th ed wrote:Progenoids - The Gene-seeds
Every Space Marine has these organs, one implanted in the
neck and another in the chest. The organs respond to the
presence of other implants in the body by creating germ cells
corresponding to those implants. These germ cells grow and
are stored in the progenoid organs. Mature progenoid
organs can be removed and new implants artificially cultured
from them. This is the only way new implants can be
created, so a Chapter depends upon its Space Marines to
create other Space Marines.

so you're sort of right KilKrazy

May I suggest "index astartes 1 / page 6" ?

Creating new chapters:
- stored geneseed used to grow progenoids artificially,
- implanted into 1 subject can grow 2 progenoids,
- those 2 are implanted again in 2 subjects and grow 2 progenoids each, thus 4,
- it takes 55 years to grow 1000 sets.

You don't need 2 progenoid glands to have enough to implant new aspirants. But you need at least one to create more of them.

Kilkrazy wrote:No, less than one.

You need to implant two Progenoid glands in your SM candidate.

Kilkrazy wrote:What are the progenoids actually supposed to do?

On the first account you are incorrect but I will explain why.

The Progenoid Glands absorb hormonal stimuli and genetic material from each of the Marine's implants creating the gene-seed, one gene-seed for each implant which includes both of the Progenoid Glands. Both Progenoid Glands therefore yield two complete sets of gene-seed; bar any mutation in an individual Chapter's gene-seed of course.

When the Progenoid Glands are mature they can be removed and the gene-seed can be harvested. The gene-seed can be stored indefinitely under the right conditions but when they are needed the gene-seed are placed into a growing medium until they have matured into a zygote; a zygote being an implant that is ready for implantation.

Every Space Marine, under optimal conditions, can produce two sets of gene-seed within ten years and thus two more Space Marines can be created and so on and so forth.

Which basically means the original progenoid is not removed - the original implanted gland produces two. Those two are removed. The original is removed on death.

BluntmanDC wrote:
This is complete rubbish with no support from fluff.

If the gland is removed how can it grow back? it is not a naturally developed organ, it has to be implanted in, so you would have to use a fully grown geneseed to produce the progeniod glands required to implant in after the mature ones are used (which would mean an initiate wouldn't get one).

i never claimed it was supported in the fluff. i said it was conjecture based upon the, very scant, information we do know.

because so little in known about how Geneseed is actually made(and it MUST be replicatable or the rate of loss would mean Marines would be long extinct) we must interpret and make up our own theories.

i have given mine, feel free to place one of your own forward that is better.


a removed gland could grow back because there is a second present that would contain the information to produce a new one. Stem cells from that gland would migrate to the site of the removed gland and would grow into a new one.

Okay, let me see if I have got this straight.

You implant a progenoid into an SM candidate, plus a bunch of other glands which you have cultured from geneseeds.

The progenoid stimulates development of the other glands, including two more progenoids.

As the glands develop, they release geneseeds, which are collected by the new progenoids -- I assume those mature first in order to do this.

After five years minimum the progenoids are removed (normally only one) and used to provide geneseeds for the culture of new other glands, but not progenoids.

The original third progenoid is never removed, or perhaps it is removed at death?

it's unclear.


perhaps they only put one in and it grows the second. this second can then be harvested every so often as it is replaced by the original.

when the marine dies, both the original and the new one will be removed.

Kilkrazy wrote:Okay, let me see if I have got this straight.

You implant a progenoid into an SM candidate, plus a bunch of other glands which you have cultured from geneseeds.

The progenoid stimulates development of the other glands, including two more progenoids.

As the glands develop, they release geneseeds, which are collected by the new progenoids -- I assume those mature first in order to do this.

After five years minimum the progenoids are removed (normally only one) and used to provide geneseeds for the culture of new other glands, but not progenoids.

The original third progenoid is never removed, or perhaps it is removed at death?

Actually, the progenoids are implanted last. They learn from the other implants how to make more implants. They stimulate nothing, they're more like gene receptors.
Progenoid is a synonym for geneseed
The progenoid is like an actual seed, it is not recoverable. It's when an apple seed becomes an apple tree.

So where do new progenoids come from?

Kilkrazy wrote:So where do new progenoids come from?

The progenoid grows 20 organs including 2 progenoids. 20 appears to be a very important number in Astartes lore.

-Loki- wrote:Which basically means the original progenoid is not removed - the original implanted gland produces two. Those two are removed. The original is removed on death.

I'm not exactly certain what it is you're trying to say here but you are incorrect and I think it will be related to my answer below.

Kilkrazy wrote:Okay, let me see if I have got this straight.

You start the whole process with the gene-seed, one gene-seed which corresponds to all of the zygotes (implants) a Space Marine will be implanted with.

There are two (2) Progenoid Glands implanted into a Space Marine recruit. Both of these Progenoid Glands are the second to last implants the recruit will receive, the last implant being the Black Carapace.

The Progenoid Glands are identical but for reasons not explained the Progenoid Gland in the neck matures twice as quickly as the Progenoid Gland in the chest; five years for the Progenoid Gland in the neck and ten years for the Progenoid Gland in the chest.

As the Progenoid Glands mature they absorb genetic material given off by the other implants including both of the Progenoid Glands. When mature both Progenoid Glands can be removed at any time; they do not have to be left in until the Marine is dead and unlike wine they do not get better with age, once mature the Progenoid is ready for removal.

When harvested, assuming that there is no damage, each Progenoid Gland will yield gene-seed for all of the implants needed to create one (1) Space Marine. So, in order of implantation each Progenoid Gland will have the following amount of gene-seed:

One Secondary Heart
One Ossmodula
One Biscopea
One Haemastamen
One Larraman's Organ
One Catalepsean Node
One Preomnor
One Omophagea
One Multi-Lung
One Occulobe
One Lyman's Ear
One Sus-an Membrane
One Melanochrome
One Oolitic Kidney
One Neuroglottis
One Mucranoid
Two Betcher's Glands
Two Progenoid Glands
One Black Carapace


In summary:

Every Space Marine receives two (2) Progenoid Glands, not one, and both of those Progenoid Glands produce gene-seed for two more Progenoid Glands each totalling four Progenoid Glands per Space Marine allowing for the creation of two more Space Marines.

After the neck Progenoid Gland has matured for five years it is ready for removal. After the chest Progenoid Gland has matured for ten years it is ready for removal. Once they are removed viable gene-seed are harvested from each Progenoid Gland and stored. When a new set of implants are required the gene-seed are grown to maturity and become Zygotes (in the same way a fetus becomes a baby) and then the Zygotes are implanted into the recruit.

Once the Progenoid Glands have been removed that's it, nothing else happens to the Marine. Progenoid Glands are not produced by spontaneous generation and a Space Marine does not receive any more Progenoid Glands after the first two are removed.

new progenoids are made from the mature geneseed along with all the other organs.

geneseed -> all organs grown -> organs ready to implant -> organs implanted in order (including progenoids) -> during the five years the new geneseed grows within the progenoids -> progenoids mature into geneseed and are able to be removed -> a new set of organs can be grown (including progenoids)

Gogsnik wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Seriously doubt there's a SM Captain walking around with a progenoid gland. The benefits are minimal compared to the risk of actually losing it in battle.

The other problem of course is that the Progenoids will have matured a long time before a Marine will have even left one of the Reserve Companies with no way to know if this Marines will ever amount to anything more than a Battle Brother so leaving a Progenoid in on the off chance that he might be one of the Chapter's future rising stars doesn't seem likely. I don't recall reading in the background that a Progenoid is enhanced by the Astartes into which it is implanted, has anyone got a source for this so I can refresh my memory?

In DOW Soulstorm, when you defeat the SM force and kill their commander (there is a cutscene) an apothicary says that they must "save the geneseed".

I'm not sure that previous progenoid glands are put into the marine at all actually. The progenoid provides the germ cultures needed to grow new implants for the marine, including the progenoids themselves. So I'm thinking that the progenoid is destroyed while harvesting the germ cultures. Then only the newly developed progenoids are implanted into the marine and mature on their own.

So if we look at the progenoids alone, each SM requires two progenoids for implantation. First, these progenoids are extracted from an SM, and emptied of their geneseeds.

These are grown into zygotes and then implanted along with the now empty progenoids into the new candidate SM.

When fully matured, two new progenoids have been grown and filled with new zygotes. These are extracted in order to be implanted into the next candidate.

The successful candidate, now an SM, keeps his original two progenoids.

Gogsnik wrote:

-Loki- wrote:Which basically means the original progenoid is not removed - the original implanted gland produces two. Those two are removed. The original is removed on death.

I'm not exactly certain what it is you're trying to say here but you are incorrect and I think it will be related to my answer below.

Kilkrazy wrote:Okay, let me see if I have got this straight.

You start the whole process with the gene-seed, one gene-seed which corresponds to all of the zygotes (implants) a Space Marine will be implanted with.

There are two (2) Progenoid Glands implanted into a Space Marine recruit. Both of these Progenoid Glands are the second to last implants the recruit will receive, the last implant being the Black Carapace.

The Progenoid Glands are identical but for reasons not explained the Progenoid Gland in the neck matures twice as quickly as the Progenoid Gland in the chest; five years for the Progenoid Gland in the neck and ten years for the Progenoid Gland in the chest.

As the Progenoid Glands mature they absorb genetic material given off by the other implants including both of the Progenoid Glands. When mature both Progenoid Glands can be removed at any time; they do not have to be left in until the Marine is dead and unlike wine they do not get better with age, once mature the Progenoid is ready for removal.

When harvested, assuming that there is no damage, each Progenoid Gland will yield gene-seed for all of the implants needed to create one (1) Space Marine. So, in order of implantation each Progenoid Gland will have the following amount of gene-seed:

One Secondary Heart
One Ossmodula
One Biscopea
One Haemastamen
One Larraman's Organ
One Catalepsean Node
One Preomnor
One Omophagea
One Multi-Lung
One Occulobe
One Lyman's Ear
One Sus-an Membrane
One Melanochrome
One Oolitic Kidney
One Neuroglottis
One Mucranoid
Two Betcher's Glands
Two Progenoid Glands
One Black Carapace


In summary:

Every Space Marine receives two (2) Progenoid Glands, not one, and both of those Progenoid Glands produce gene-seed for two more Progenoid Glands each totalling four Progenoid Glands per Space Marine allowing for the creation of two more Space Marines.

After the neck Progenoid Gland has matured for five years it is ready for removal. After the chest Progenoid Gland has matured for ten years it is ready for removal. Once they are removed viable gene-seed are harvested from each Progenoid Gland and stored. When a new set of implants are required the gene-seed are grown to maturity and become Zygotes (in the same way a fetus becomes a baby) and then the Zygotes are implanted into the recruit.

Once the Progenoid Glands have been removed that's it, nothing else happens to the Marine. Progenoid Glands are not produced by spontaneous generation and a Space Marine does not receive any more Progenoid Glands after the first two are removed.

Yeah, I guess you're right. Each SM is capable of generating 4 SMs. Even less Grimdark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:So if we look at the progenoids alone, each SM requires two progenoids for implantation. First, these progenoids are extracted from an SM, and emptied of their geneseeds.

These are grown into zygotes and then implanted along with the now empty progenoids into the new candidate SM.

When fully matured, two new progenoids have been grown and filled with new zygotes. These are extracted in order to be implanted into the next candidate.

The successful candidate, now an SM, keeps his original two progenoids.

oh yeah each SM requires 2 progenoids disregard last comment. My head hurts.

I think you basically got it Kilkrazy except I'm not sure what you mean by "Keeps his original two progenoids". The progenoid tranforms into a zygote. It's gone.

So, an SM candidate is given two progenoids, which disappear during the zygotation process, and he grows two new progenoids which are extracted and given to a new SM candidate.

Kilkrazy wrote:So, an SM candidate is given two progenoids, which disappear during the zygotation process, and he grows two new progenoids which are extracted and given to a new SM candidate.

Yeah, still a gain of only 2 new SMs. Gonna stick with my appleseed analogy. Except this tree only grows one apple with two seeds.........and new trees need both seeds, sigh. Alright its not the best analogy.
Anyways, this is the most interested in SMs Kilkrazy has ever been

purplefood wrote:2 are implanted. 1 grows to maturity and can be taken out after 5-10 years. The other set is taken out after death.

This seems right. It's a wonderful way to take advantage of new recruits If he gets killed doing scout work, he's more valuable than one that gets killed as a captain