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So each Space Marine has two progenoid glands that can be removed after 5 years and 10 years. This amount of time is really nothing for a Space Marine. They might be eligible to get out of the scout company after 10 years but probably not.
Therefore the vast majority of Power Armoured Space Marines are walking around without gene-seed. So what's with these Apothecaries going around sawing open PA chest plates and supposedly extracting the chapter's due? Even if they are, that progenoid would be immature (not ripe so to speak) and theoritically useless anyway.

Don't they have new ones implanted when the old ones are removed?

nope. You don't need a progenoid. It's only pupose is to make new Space Marines.

Yes, I know. But when they have the original gland removed, isn't a new immature one implanted so that a single marine can be "harvested" several times?

It has been a while since I last read any fluff on this, so I may be wrong.

2 are implanted. 1 grows to maturity and can be taken out after 5-10 years. The other set is taken out after death.

I was always under the impression they left it in till death.

purplefood wrote:2 are implanted. 1 grows to maturity and can be taken out after 5-10 years. The other set is taken out after death.

DA's Forever wrote:I was always under the impression they left it in till death.

I was also under that impression too. However a book I recently read pointed out that the older Marines did not carry the gene-seed within them which got me thinking. Lexicanum confirms that the neck gland is removed after 5 years and the chest one after 10 years.

Maybe they take them out after a couple centuries of service? Old is kind of relitive with Space Marines

Oddly enough this makes 40k much less grimdark...
SM geneseed floating about all over the shop now...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

I was also under that impression too. However a book I recently read pointed out that the older Marines did not carry the gene-seed within them which got me thinking. Lexicanum confirms that the neck gland is removed after 5 years and the chest one after 10 years.

Which book?

Maybe the gene-seed improves over time, keeping it longer implanted would be a decision of risk and "better" geneseed or no risk and acceptable gene-seed?
And Lexi only confirms the progenoid glands are matured after 5 and 10 years, nothing about a set date of removal there.

purplefood wrote:Oddly enough this makes 40k much less grimdark...
SM geneseed floating about all over the shop now...

Each Space Marine can still only make 2 Space Marines. Still, explains why you can grow a whole chapter in like 48 years or something. Tis a tad less Grimdark.

Since the Chapter Approved article from White Dwarf 98 told us about the Progenoid Glands it has always been the case that the neck Gland matured after five years and the chest Gland after ten and that, once mature the Gland can be removed 'at any time'. It could be that they are left in but it makes little sense to jeopardise the Progenoids in this way once they are mature.

Any mention of keeping Progenoids in longer for whatever reason or that one can only be removed after death is pure fan theory to explain why Apothecaries might need to remove Progenoids on the battlefield.

In the short story Call of the Lion in the Tales of Heresy anthology Astelan muses on how his Progenoids have long since been removed and that he was destined to end his days at the end of a reductor.

I recently read "fear the xenos", and the emperor's scythes will remove the progenoid glands before death, but this is to help accelerate the chapter's repopulation.

Gogsnik wrote:Since the Chapter Approved article from White Dwarf 98 told us about the Progenoid Glands it has always been the case that the neck Gland matured after five years and the chest Gland after ten and that, once mature the Gland can be removed 'at any time'. It could be that they are left in but it makes little sense to jeopardise the Progenoids in this way once they are mature.

Any mention of keeping Progenoids in longer for whatever reason or that one can only be removed after death is pure fan theory to explain why Apothecaries might need to remove Progenoids on the battlefield.

In the short story Call of the Lion in the Tales of Heresy anthology Astelan muses on how his Progenoids have long since been removed and that he was destined to end his days at the end of a reductor.

Yep, that's the one I just read.
It would appear the iconic image of the white-clad Apothecaries charging through enemy fire to retrieve his brother's precious gene-seed is a little overplayed - at least post-heresy. Large waves of "green" marines were quite common in the Legion days. Which explains why codex chapters only have about Apothecary per Company.

Nonetheless, the question remains what is the point of retrieving immature progenoid glands? Is it even usuable?

Mr Nobody wrote:I recently read "fear the xenos", and the emperor's scythes will remove the progenoid glands before death, but this is to help accelerate the chapter's repopulation.

This makes sense. Maybe most chapters keep them in because they are only trying to maintain status quo. Chapters who have had a rash of bad luck have the option to start removing them early to bolster their numbers.

Orblivion wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I recently read "fear the xenos", and the emperor's scythes will remove the progenoid glands before death, but this is to help accelerate the chapter's repopulation.

This makes sense. Maybe most chapters keep them in because they are only trying to maintain status quo. Chapters who have had a rash of bad luck have the option to start removing them early to bolster their numbers.

It's too risky to just leave them in. Better to keep them in the lab. Plus the only tithe the chapters pay to The Imperium is the gene-seed.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Orblivion wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I recently read "fear the xenos", and the emperor's scythes will remove the progenoid glands before death, but this is to help accelerate the chapter's repopulation.

This makes sense. Maybe most chapters keep them in because they are only trying to maintain status quo. Chapters who have had a rash of bad luck have the option to start removing them early to bolster their numbers.

It's too risky to just leave them in. Better to keep them in the lab. Plus the only tithe the chapters pay to The Imperium is the gene-seed.

But they also have strict guidelines as to how many marines they are supposed to maintain at any given time. I can see the Inquisition becoming suspicious if particular chapters suddenly started stockpiling their gene-seed.

It is also worth mentioning that the implant organs are created from the germ-cultures removed from the progenoids, but nothing is said about whether or not each progenoid is capable of creating a full set of organs on it's own. Maybe both are required? That still wouldn't explain why they keep them in, but it might explain why there aren't way more marines already.

I alwas thought that the neck one was taken out and then another one grew and so on...

but IIRC removing the chest gland is fatal, due to positioning which is why it has to be done on the battlefield/after death

Hhhhhmmmmm......very interesting food for thought. I never thought about this before. Maybe the reason we see them being removed on the battlefield at death because the procedure to remove them from a living host is a long process, maybe it makes the marine non-combat ready for an extended period of time until he fully recovers and his body reaclimates itself to the lack of both of these glands. So some of the constantly battling companies may not be able to afford having a squad or two from every company recovering in the med dock during thier compaigns.

Opinions are varied on how exactly this works.


I think this is what the process is.


Initiates have their Progenoids implanted.

after 5 years, Gland 1 is mature and may be removed. after 10 years, Gland 2 is mature...


here is the important part.

after a gland is removed, it begins to grow back!!!

so every 5 years, each Marine can produce a new Progenoid gland(actual time may vary by individual)



Progenoids are removed upon death simply for completeness. the last sample.

not all progenoids are used to make Marines. most chapters have much more Geneseed stock that they actually use. some of it goes to Terra for Purity analysis. some is unusable due to mutation(and so is discarded)

the reason extra is needed is because marines die in battle. not all Progenoids in marines will be intact upon death due to the violent nature of Marine death.

Grey Templar wrote:Opinions are varied on how exactly this works.


I think this is what the process is.


Initiates have their Progenoids implanted.

after 5 years, Gland 1 is mature and may be removed. after 10 years, Gland 2 is mature...


here is the important part.

after a gland is removed, it begins to grow back!!!

so every 5 years, each Marine can produce a new Progenoid gland(actual time may vary by individual)

I don't think so. Gonna need a citation on that one.

All we know for certain is that once mature the Glands can be removed immediately. I would say that the image of dead Astartes having Progenoids harvested is grossly overdone but then we do see it as a gaming mechanic so perhaps it stems from that but then gaming mechanics have no bearing on the background.

I don't think there is any indication that Progenoids are harvested early but if it is possible to retrieve them then it would be best to do so, for all we know the various gene-seed within the Progenoid might mature at different rates making at least some of them viable. Afterall it is not certain than even a mature Progenoid will yield a full set of gene-seed, there are various reasons why the gene-seed may be too damaged to use. It might also make sense to send these dud Progenoids as part of the tithe, they're healthy, just not fully matured but its anyones guess really.

There is no reason to truly suppose that the Apothecaries ever leave Progenoids in longer than absolutely necessary, logically it makes sense to retrieve them as soon as possible and as already mentioned the imagery of Progenoids being harvested from every fallen Marine seems hyperbolic.

I don't have citation.


i draw my conclusion from the fact that Marines have 2 Progenoids put in when they are initiates.

they also give up 2 upon death.

because Progenoids are sometimes destroyed when the marine dies(meltagun to the neck/chest) this presents a problem.


unless all Progenoids are recovered, Marine Chapters will lose Geneseed over time. it would be absolutly stupid to send Samples to Terr(which arn't returned) because that would further deplete your stocks.


therefore, there must be some way of replicating it. only getting a single marine out of a single marine is not a favorable form of reproduction(the best you can do is maintain the Pop)

I read somewhere that when a marine chapter is ordered to be founded by the High Lords. Geneseed is taken from the Progenoid vaults on mars and implanted into special servitors/slaves. their bodies are engeneered to replicate Geneseed. the geneseed is then replicated until enough is present to found the chapter.


However. this doesn't allow a marine chapter to regain numbers if it takes massive casualities and loses Geneseed(ala Crimson Fists)


only if a Marine actually produces a steady supply of Geneseed can a chapter regain it's numbers. I doubt the Ad Mech will simply make more Geneseed for a chapter that is possably a lost cause. only the chapter could make more of it's own Geneseed.

Grey Templar wrote:I don't have citation.


i draw my conclusion from the fact that Marines have 2 Progenoids put in when they are initiates.

they also give up 2 upon death.

because Progenoids are sometimes destroyed when the marine dies(meltagun to the neck/chest) this presents a problem.


unless all Progenoids are recovered, Marine Chapters will lose Geneseed over time. it would be absolutly stupid to send Samples to Terr(which arn't returned) because that would further deplete your stocks.


therefore, there must be some way of replicating it. only getting a single marine out of a single marine is not a favorable form of reproduction(the best you can do is maintain the Pop)

I read somewhere that when a marine chapter is ordered to be founded by the High Lords. Geneseed is taken from the Progenoid vaults on mars and implanted into special servitors/slaves. their bodies are engeneered to replicate Geneseed. the geneseed is then replicated until enough is present to found the chapter.


However. this doesn't allow a marine chapter to regain numbers if it takes massive casualities and loses Geneseed(ala Crimson Fists)


only if a Marine actually produces a steady supply of Geneseed can a chapter regain it's numbers. I doubt the Ad Mech will simply make more Geneseed for a chapter that is possably a lost cause. only the chapter could make more of it's own Geneseed.

It doesn't add up though. Talented space marines will live for centuries, you're claiming that one of those marines could provide an entire company's worth of gene-seed in their life time. Commander Dante for instance would have provided at least 330 progenoid glands at this point. That does not make sense.

Grey Templar wrote:i draw my conclusion from the fact that Marines have 2 Progenoids put in when they are initiates.

they also give up 2 upon death.

It's the same two.

I also used to think that Marines could have received more Progenoid Implants but really it doesn't make sense. When the Astartes were formed into Legions this wasn't so much of a problem but since the advent of the Codex Astartes the difficulty in a Chapter producing full sets of gene-seed is exactly congruant with the aim of the Codex, that being to curb the power of the Astartes.

Just look at the Badab War for example, we see exactly these issues played out. We have a Chapter reduced significantly in strength who petition the High Lords for the relesae of their gene-seed in order to rebuild their numbers but are denied and the Astral Claws withhold their tithe of gene-seed, a grave sin on their part. Chapters are not supposed to be able to replace losses instantly and easily, their numbers are held deliberately low.

Also, one Marine has the potential to make two further Marines, not one. Two Progenoids make two sets of gene-seed which in turn make two sets of zygotes; two sets of implants that can be used in two new recruits.

The most logical way for a Chapter to produce many sets of gene-seed would be to employ the same test-slave method used by the Mechanicus but we don't see that in the background at all. Even when the Astral Claws decided to increase their stocks of gene-seed they still used Marines to create them and withheld their tithe. If it were so easy to use test-slaves then the Astral Claws were most certainly have done it.

I believe it is merely a matter of writers not really keeping consistent with the fluff. This is the way with many other issues as well. Take the face that it used to be considered fatal to look into an astropaths 3rd eye. While Bowden still keeps to this convention Counter and King (amongst others) do not. I do remember reading, somewhere that the glands continue to receive information from the host for as long as they are implanted so I guess leaving them in place could have some benefit if that is still the case fluff wise. In a related note, I've been reading Purging of Kadillus and there is a part in which the apothecary going over a list of marines deployed and mentions a few in the devastator and scout squads that have not had their progenoids extracted saying that it will be done once they are back with the Chapter.

FM Ninja 048 wrote:I alwas thought that the neck one was taken out and then another one grew and so on...

but IIRC removing the chest gland is fatal, due to positioning which is why it has to be done on the battlefield/after death

That makes so much sense that it must be untrue.

I think one possible reason we don't see slave grown organs much within Chapters is because of how difficult it is to find decent genetic stock that won't reject the organs. Even many (usually said to be about half) of the few aspirants who pass the trials successfully cannot handle the implant process. Also, since the progenoids absorb information from the host, making the donor part of their legacy, not many marines may want organs grown in human slaves.

Gridge wrote:I believe it is merely a matter of writers not really keeping consistent with the fluff. This is the way with many other issues as well. Take the face that it used to be considered fatal to look into an astropaths 3rd eye. While Bowden still keeps to this convention Counter and King (amongst others) do not. I do remember reading, somewhere that the glands continue to receive information from the host for as long as they are implanted so I guess leaving them in place could have some benefit if that is still the case fluff wise. In a related note, I've been reading Purging of Kadillus and there is a part in which the apothecary going over a list of marines deployed and mentions a few in the devastator and scout squads that have not had their progenoids extracted saying that it will be done once they are back with the Chapter.

There's no inconsistencey. Two Glands they can be removed before death. All this other stuff is just fan-theories that are completely wrong.

Anyways, I believe you are right about the fact that the progenoid gland is supposed to absorb genetic information from the host for as long as its in. Therefore leaving it in you supposedly have a better chance of improving your chapter by getting genes from a great hero of the chapter. Still not a good idea. Seriously doubt there's a SM Captain walking around with a progenoid gland. The benefits are minimal compared to the risk of actually losing it in battle.

Perhaps prematurely extracted gene-seed can be reused....

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Seriously doubt there's a SM Captain walking around with a progenoid gland. The benefits are minimal compared to the risk of actually losing it in battle.

The other problem of course is that the Progenoids will have matured a long time before a Marine will have even left one of the Reserve Companies with no way to know if this Marines will ever amount to anything more than a Battle Brother so leaving a Progenoid in on the off chance that he might be one of the Chapter's future rising stars doesn't seem likely. I don't recall reading in the background that a Progenoid is enhanced by the Astartes into which it is implanted, has anyone got a source for this so I can refresh my memory?