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Kilkrazy wrote:So, an SM candidate is given two progenoids, which disappear during the zygotation process, and he grows two new progenoids which are extracted and given to a new SM candidate.

The recruit gets two new Progenoid Glands which are harvested for gene-seed when mature. The harvested Progenoid Glands are destroyed in this process and presumably go in the medical waste bin.

The four Progenoid Gland gene-seed (two Progenoid Gland gene-seed per Progenoid Gland implant) which were harvested are grown into four Progenoid Gland Zygotes (Zygote is merely the term for an implant which hasn't been implanted yet) and two of those new Progenoid Glands are implanted into one recruit and the other two Progenoid Glands are implanted into a second recruit.

Visualise it this way, think of a pomegranate, when you open it there are loads of arils (seeds) inside. However the arils in this case are gene-seed, one for each of the implants a Space Marine needs. Now, when you take the arils out of a pomegranate, you throw the husk away, same thing with a mature Progenoid Gland, you harvest the gene-seed and throw the remainder away, its job is done.

And the progenoids contain two of each other type of zygote as well as progenoid zygotes?

I think the zygote is the mature progenoid. Its a tiny sac of little organ seeds. Like those little dinosaurs that you add water too.

and it only contains one set of organs KilrKrazy. The 2 progenoids complete the entire set of 20 seeds that make 1 Space Marine.

So where are these spare progenoid zygotes coming from?

The difficulty I have in understanding this is that without some way to produce extra progenoids, the number of progenoids is two per generation, and in each generation, two are used up to produce two for the next generation. There is no increase in numbers, and any losses (for example, a failed SM candidate) cannot be made up.

The idea that two progenoids produce four progenoid zygotes for the next generation is much more sensible.

Kilkrazy wrote:So where are these spare progenoid zygotes coming from?

The difficulty I have in understanding this is that without some way to produce extra progenoids, the number of progenoids is two per generation, and in each generation, two are used up to produce two for the next generation. There is no increase in numbers, and any losses (for example, a failed SM candidate) cannot be made up.

The idea that two progenoids produce four progenoid zygotes for the next generation is much more sensible.

Each Progenoid produces two Progenoids and each space marines has two progenoids.
So the chest zygote set produces a Space Marine and the neck Zygote set produces one Space Marine. (each set has two progenoids)

But that is six.

Two progenoids implanted develop two progenoids each. 2 x 2 = 4 + original 2 = 6. I thought the SM had two harvestable progenoids.

I think I need to see this summarised in visual format.

Kilkrazy wrote:But that is six.

Two progenoids implanted develop two progenoids each. 2 x 2 = 4 + original 2 = 6. I thought the SM had two harvestable progenoids.

I think I need to see this summarised in visual format.

No! Originals are used up in process! Progenoid -> Zygote -> 20 organs (including 2 new progenoids). It is literally like when an egg becomes an embryo. No more egg!

Kilkrazy wrote:But that is six.

Two progenoids implanted develop two progenoids each. 2 x 2 = 4 + original 2 = 6. I thought the SM had two harvestable progenoids.

I think I need to see this summarised in visual format.

ok i see the problem its like bacteria splitting:

neck progenoid gland is implanted -> develops into a geneseed -> geneseed is extracted -> geneseed is used to produce all the organs needed to produce a space marine (included two new proglenoid glands, neck and chest)

chest progenoid gland is implanted -> develops into a geneseed -> geneseed is extracted -> geneseed is used to produce all the organs needed to produce a space marine (included two new proglenoid glands, neck and chest)

the progenoid gland becomes the geneseed, so its not (2 x 2) + 2, it 2 x 2, once the progenoid gland has matured it is no longer a progenoid gland (its like the difference between an apple flower and an apple, the flower becomes an apple but is no longer a flower). so each marine allows for two future marines.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:But that is six.

Two progenoids implanted develop two progenoids each. 2 x 2 = 4 + original 2 = 6. I thought the SM had two harvestable progenoids.

I think I need to see this summarised in visual format.

ok i see the problem its like bacteria splitting:

neck progenoid gland is implanted -> develops into a geneseed -> geneseed is extracted -> geneseed is used to produce all the organs needed to produce a space marine (included two new proglenoid glands, neck and chest)

chest progenoid gland is implanted -> develops into a geneseed -> geneseed is extracted -> geneseed is used to produce all the organs needed to produce a space marine (included two new proglenoid glands, neck and chest)

the progenoid gland becomes the geneseed, so its not (2 x 2) + 2, it 2 x 2, once the progenoid gland has matured it is no longer a progenoid gland (its like the difference between a flower and a fruit). so each marine allows for two future marines.

Yes!

OK, I think we're there.

What happens when a candidate fails for some reason to make it to full SM?

Okay, this is a very simplistic image of a mature Progenoid Gland:



There are nineteen distinct organs that a Space Marine receives but there are twenty-one individual implants because there are two Progenoid Glands (red dots in the image) and two Betcher's Glands (blue dots in the image). All the other implants are coloured green except for the Black Carapace which I've made black for obvious reasons.

Each Space Marine has two Progenoid Glands so that means a total of four Progenoid Gland gene-seed. When a mature Progenoid Gland is harvested it is destroyed by that process leaving only the four Progenoid Gland gene-seed, the original two mature Progenoid Glands are chopped into to pieces to retrieve the gene-seed and the scraps of flesh are thrown away. The four Progenoid Gland gene-seed are grown into four Progenoid Gland zygotes which are then implanted into two recruits, two Progenoid Glands each.

Hopefully that makes everything crystal clear.

Kilkrazy wrote:OK, I think we're there.

What happens when a candidate fails for some reason to make it to full SM?

That happens alot of course. It's not easy to become one. Each of the 19 organs has dramatic effects on the human body and will often kill the recipient.
As for failing boot camp (most common cause of failing boot camp is dieing but if not) then you become a Chapter Serf. Unless you had the misfortune of being in one of the more hardcore chapters then they might just kill you.
Serfs do all the jobs that you just don't think about and are not cool for the chapter. Swabbing the deck on the Battle Barge for example. That's why its not a good idea to board a SM ship. Sure they may be only 100 Space Marines on board but there's thousands of guys who are like 90% SM with shotguns!


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Gogsnik wrote:Okay, this is a very simplistic image of a mature Progenoid Gland:



There are nineteen distinct organs that a Space Marine receives but there are twenty-one individual implants because there are two Progenoid Glands (red dots in the image) and two Betcher's Glands (blue dots in the image). All the other implants are coloured green except for the Black Carapace which I've made black for obvious reasons.

Each Space Marine has two Progenoid Glands so that means a total of four Progenoid Gland gene-seed. When a mature Progenoid Gland is harvested it is destroyed by that process leaving only the four Progenoid Gland gene-seed, the original two mature Progenoid Glands are chopped into to pieces to retrieve the gene-seed and the scraps of flesh are thrown away. The four Progenoid Gland gene-seed are grown into four Progenoid Gland zygotes which are then implanted into two recruits, two Progenoid Glands each.

Hopefully that makes everything crystal clear.

Killrazy ask for a diagram and it shall be so!

Well now that we got "how progenoid glands" conundrum squared away we can get back to the original topic which was actually why do we see Apothecaries cutting open Power Armour on the Battlefield so much. I don't believe they are retrieving immature geneseed because if you're geneseed isn't even mature yet you probably died in boot camp and therefore suck and they don't want you suckiness to carry on anyway.

So after discussion I have created my Theory of Apothecarium Prerogative:
So, we've establised that it’s not that difficult to accumulate enough geneseed to create an entire chapter. Only about 55 years to get 1000 Marines (which would be a perfect no mutation, no fatality run) yet most marines average about 300 years before getting killed. So quite frankly despite the grim darkness of the future most chapters of 1000 marines actually have quite a large stockpile of surplus geneseed and even the 5% tithe owed to The Inquisition and is no skin off their back(even with defects and fatalities). If you are Codex and hovering around 1,000 Astartes or more and got thousands of zygotes in the fridge its really not that big a priority to remove that chest gland especially considering how you need a power-fielded Bonesaw which may take a marine out of commission for a while.

Also, It is true that the Progenoid absorbs the genes of its host and there is a belief amongst Astartes that while a great hero of the chapter retains his geneseed his deeds of bravery and greatness are being passsed on into the chapter's bloodline. Is the science of this dubious? You betcha. I believe that a progenoid has probably absorbed over 99% of the genes it’s ever going to by the time the Astartes is 28 years of age but y'know who has dubious understanding of Science? Space Marines. This is simply what some chapters believe.
Some are more pragmatic and always remove the chest one after 10 years or because they have had heavy Causalties lately and just need them while others see a benefit to the chapter’s long-term strength by leaving it in. The decision most likely lies with the Apothecaries themselves either individually per company or perhaps the entire cadre reaches a consensus for the chapter.

Despite the fact that a chapter’s geneseed stockpile may not be at critical levels an Apothecary will still charge through fire to retrieve his brother’s Geneseed mainly because it really is his chance to live on forever within the Chapter. The progenoid really doesn’t just absorb the organ blueprints but the man’s gene’s too. In this way, they really are brothers by blood and have the flesh of their Primarch and The Emperor within them. Back in M30 when the geneseed was not very far removed from its progenitors, many Astartes looked exactly like their Primarch. 10,000 years and innumerable generations later Space Marines kinda look like…..themselves; and perhaps just a little bit like a great hero of the Chapter.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:So each Space Marine has two progenoid glands that can be removed after 5 years and 10 years. This amount of time is really nothing for a Space Marine. They might be eligible to get out of the scout company after 10 years but probably not.
Therefore the vast majority of Power Armoured Space Marines are walking around without gene-seed. So what's with these Apothecaries going around sawing open PA chest plates and supposedly extracting the chapter's due? Even if they are, that progenoid would be immature (not ripe so to speak) and theoritically useless anyway.

whats thta gland do, anyway?

necrongod wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:So each Space Marine has two progenoid glands that can be removed after 5 years and 10 years. This amount of time is really nothing for a Space Marine. They might be eligible to get out of the scout company after 10 years but probably not.
Therefore the vast majority of Power Armoured Space Marines are walking around without gene-seed. So what's with these Apothecaries going around sawing open PA chest plates and supposedly extracting the chapter's due? Even if they are, that progenoid would be immature (not ripe so to speak) and theoritically useless anyway.

whats thta gland do, anyway?

You better be messing with me necrongod!

Back when I believed (mistakenly) that a Marine might be able to receive multiple Progenoid Glands over his lifetime I had the idea of this process creating dynasties within the Chapter. Naturally if you had gene-seed from one of the Chapter's great heroes then you had an automatic high standing within the Chapter, perhaps only associating with other Marines who shared the same gene-seed or an equally high-standing gene-seed.

In a way I suppose you could use a similar idea but instead the Chapter chooses to leave a Progenoid Gland in a Marine for whatever reason. Anyone receiving gene-seed from such a venerable source will be marked out as they literally have the gene-seed of a mighty hero and not just Brother Bob's gene-seed which was retrieved as standard sometime in his late twenties and early thirities before he ever prooved himself in battle.

Gogsnik wrote:Back when I believed (mistakenly) that a Marine might be able to receive multiple Progenoid Glands over his lifetime I had the idea of this process creating dynasties within the Chapter. Naturally if you had gene-seed from one of the Chapter's great heroes then you had an automatic high standing within the Chapter, perhaps only associating with other Marines who shared the same gene-seed or an equally high-standing gene-seed.

In a way I suppose you could use a similar idea but instead the Chapter chooses to leave a Progenoid Gland in a Marine for whatever reason. Anyone receiving gene-seed from such a venerable source will be marked out as they literally have the gene-seed of a mighty hero and not just Brother Bob's gene-seed which was retrieved as standard sometime in his late twenties and early thirities before he ever prooved himself in battle.

I think that basically happens naturally due to the company system. Each company Apthecary is responsible for his companies line.
With the Iron Snakes it actually happens on a squad level cuz they're wacky that way.

purplefood wrote:2 are implanted. 1 grows to maturity and can be taken out after 5-10 years. The other set is taken out after death.

this is the way of it.