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I don't think you should be able to make a model more likely to take a wound any more than you can ask the one guy within 6" of an assaulting unit to fail a save in order to save his friends.

-Nazdreg- wrote:Ah ok now I see the wording, I would actually stress the following:

the model only gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.

I agree. The best save against the bolter shots? The 4+ armor save. The best save against the Missile shot? The 2++ save.

The word 'best' here is subjective to the user. Saying that the word 'best' always means 'lowest' is incorrect. 'Best' can only mean one thing, and that is 'best'.

Is it best for the player to waste a shadowfield on bolter shots only to be instant killed by a missile shot? No, it is not. So taking a 2++ save for bolter shots is not the 'best' save available.

BuFFo wrote:
I agree. The best save against the bolter shots? The 4+ armor save. The best save against the Missile shot? The 2++ save.

The word 'best' here is subjective to the user. Saying that the word 'best' always means 'lowest' is incorrect. 'Best' can only mean one thing, and that is 'best'.

Is it best for the player to waste a shadowfield on bolter shots only to be instant killed by a missile shot? No, it is not. So taking a 2++ save for bolter shots is not the 'best' save available.

There are two a equally valid interpretations of the term 'best' here.

1) One is that 'best' means the best possible save in terms of making an individual saving throw against a wound (i.e. a 2+ save is always better than a 4+ save in that regard).

2) The second interpretation is that the 'best' save is the one that is best per the player's opinion on what gives him the best tactical options in the long run.



One of those two interpretations makes the rule pointless...if you're trying to claim that #2 is the correct interpretation then basically you're saying that a player may always choose to use any save at any time (as he deems it the 'best' at that moment), and therefore the rule is meaningless.

The second interpretation actually gives the rule a meaning and is consistent with how the rules are written in 5th edition. Models are no longer able to 'turn off' their special close combat weapons in order to be more inefficient in combat because the player wishes them to be.


In the case of two (or more) possible interpretations, ask yourself: 'what is the purpose of the rule'? The point is that a model with multiple saves only uses the 'best' one as that represents the save most likely to save him from injury. A Dark Eldar Archon is not running around with a light switch installed on his Shadow Field constantly looking around to see what gun someone is firing at him.

If they wanted the Archon to be able to save up his Shadow Field for an opportune moment, then they would have written it into the rules for the Shadow Field. The fact is, the model has a 2+ invulnerable save and a 4+ save and the 2+ invulnerable is always the better save within the confines of the game rules unless the weapon ignore invulnerable saves (but doesn't ignore armor saves).

yakface wrote:
If they wanted the Archon to be able to save up his Shadow Field for an opportune moment, then they would have written it into the rules for the Shadow Field. The fact is, the model has a 2+ invulnerable save and a 4+ save and the 2+ invulnerable is always the better save within the confines of the game rules unless the weapon ignore invulnerable saves (but doesn't ignore armor saves).

If they wanted "best" to mean "lowest" they would have written that. I can make up interpretations of intent the same as you.

In reality, siince they didn't include a chart detailing which saves and reroll combinations results in a lower chance of success, they had no idea what they meant by "best".

Save is a number.

Page 24 tells you that 4+ best whencomparing 4+ to 5+.

Yes, best save is defined.

The 2++ save is the best save. Period.

Buffo - best save is not subjective.

The best save you have is the best "thing that stops you from taking a wound", thus is the save that gives you the greatest chance of succesfully avoiding the wound.

none of this is subjective.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
none of this is subjective.

It's also not obvious to those who are bad at math once re-rolls get involved.

People just stare at you, furrowing their brow in a vain attempt to understand, when you try to explain a re-rolled 4+ is better than a 3+.

I think the 2+ save is the "best" save. Just make sure to save against the missile wound first! That is up to you, for each enemy squad that shoots at you. Better yet, have a (insert DE grunt here) take that one for the boss.

Homer

nosferatu1001 wrote:Buffo - best save is not subjective.

The best save you have is the best "thing that stops you from taking a wound", thus is the save that gives you the greatest chance of succesfully avoiding the wound.

none of this is subjective.

Okay, if the best save is what avoids me from taking wounds, then yes, the 4+ save is best for bolter rounds and the 2++ save is best for the missile, because the missile flat out instant kills the archon, and that is not the best situation for the saves given at the time.

Homer S wrote:I think the 2+ save is the "best" save. Just make sure to save against the missile wound first! That is up to you, for each enemy squad that shoots at you. Better yet, have a (insert DE grunt here) take that one for the boss.

Homer

I can agree with this. I'll take the missile save first, then the bolter saves after the fact, all on 2++.

I took the situation as having to take the bolter rounds first, then the missile shot second, as if it were in two different steps.

Still, best does not equal lowest, so in certain situations I will still take a 4+ save over my 2++ save if it is BEST for me to do so. For instance, in melee, if my archon is taking 4 punches at strength 4 and 2 at strength 8, but at different initiative steps. I'll save my shadowfield for the attack which I know will instant kill my archon because that is best for me, thank you very much.

What is best for you as you describe it is not what's best for the model at that moment, against that wound.

As Yakface pointed out, this is consistent with several other rules. For example, 5th made the change that a model can't choose NOT to attack with its special close combat weapon, even if it would be more advantageous for you as the player for it to not kill anyone on your turn and remain tied in close combat, and win the combat on your opponent's turn.

There is no question that the best save against any given wound is the one with the greatest chance of passing said save. And the rules for multiple saves state that the model "always" uses the best possible save.

It's not "best" in terms of strategic value to you as the player in the long term. It's "best" in terms of what has the highest chance of negating the wound in question.

Also the simple fact that one's wanting to avoid using a save to preserve it's 'bestness'. Runs against "always using the best available save".
Trying to explain how one's model is "using the best available save" When one's not using one 'because it is better'
=\ =/ =(

Buffo - incorrect. You have ignored that the best save is the one with the best chance of saving against *that* wound. No outside consideration can be given, as that is not the directive - it is the plain, unadorned, best chance of surviving any particular wound.

It is NOT subjective, tied to a concept of anything other than the wound in isolation. If you notice the saves section is all about saving against a SINGLE wound, so by context it cannot consider other wounds that may / have occurred: just each save in isolation.

This doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet so just throwing it in there, all shots from a unit are simultaneous so therefore wouldn't all the shots land at the same time and on the same save?

I know the main argument is the interpretation of "best" and this wouldn't apply if the shots were coming from seperate units, but IMHO if the missile and bolter shots are coming from the same unit you should pick a save for all of them and since the missile is ofcourse ID the field save is the best.


EDIT - just shot this opinion to pieces myself so no need for anyone else to do it.

Still, best does not equal lowest, so in certain situations I will still take a 4+ save over my 2++ save if it is BEST for me to do so. For instance, in melee, if my archon is taking 4 punches at strength 4 and 2 at strength 8, but at different initiative steps. I'll save my shadowfield for the attack which I know will instant kill my archon because that is best for me, thank you very much.

Its not whats best for you though. It is what is best for the model. What gives him the lowest chance of taking a wound from that hit...

Also don't you just take all shadowfield saves at the same time now anyway? if any one is a 1 it results in a wound but does not prevent the shadowfield from protecting you from other simultaneous shots.

FlingitNow wrote:
Also don't you just take all shadowfield saves at the same time now anyway? if any one is a 1 it results in a wound but does not prevent the shadowfield from protecting you from other simultaneous shots.

Nope. Check out the Shadow Field rules in the codex...saves are taken one roll at a time.

I thought they removed that? I could be wrong don't have my codex on me.

Nope, page 62

They just moved it from a FAQ answer into the main rules.

cheers nos

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is NOT subjective, tied to a concept of anything other than the wound in isolation. If you notice the saves section is all about saving against a SINGLE wound, so by context it cannot consider other wounds that may / have occurred: just each save in isolation.

That right there, although as yakface points out it does say in the Shadowfield rule that a model carrying one has to roll his saves seperately one at a time. Which is a bit of a clue as to the designer's intent.

That right there, although as yakface points out it does say in the Shadowfield rule that a model carrying one has to roll his saves seperately one at a time. Which is a bit of a clue as to the designer's intent.

yes that you roll each one until you fail one and then you're down to your armour...

A save is something that gives you a chance to cancel a wound suffered. The best save is the one that gives you the best chance to cancel that wound.

FWIW, pg 20 says "a Sv value is better if it has a lower number."

Since best = most better, then the lowest save = best save.

Unsure if you HAVE to take the best sv tho.

biccat wrote:FWIW, pg 20 says "a Sv value is better if it has a lower number."

Since best = most better, then the lowest save = best save.

Unsure if you HAVE to take the best sv tho.

Nice find, I would say that means the 2++ is the "best" in game terms.

biccat wrote:FWIW, pg 20 says "a Sv value is better if it has a lower number."

Since best = most better, then the lowest save = best save.

Good catch! Hooray for rulebooks actually defining their terms!

biccat wrote:Unsure if you HAVE to take the best sv tho.

Yep, because on page 24 it tells us a model with multiple saves "...has the advantage of always using the best available save." (Emphassis mine).

Mannahnin wrote:

biccat wrote:Unsure if you HAVE to take the best sv tho.

Yep, because on page 24 it tells us a model with multiple saves "...has the advantage of always using the best available save." (Emphassis mine).

If you have an advantage, do you always have to use it?

Just playing a little devil's advocate here.

If you could choose, the rule would have said "...has the advantage of always being able to choose to use the best available save."

Of course, the rule could also have been written as "a model will always use the best available save" or something similar.

I don't think it's as cut & dry as "which is best?"

Yes, when the advantage is using it, otherwise one wouldn't have an advantage - it would be a strategic decision "Models have the advantage of being able to select the save that is most strategically benifical at the time.". Especially as the concept of what a 'best save' is explained in the rulebook

"My models have an advantage"
"What is is?"
"Why it's that they always use the best available save~!"
...sometime later...
"I'm going to use my 5+"
"What happend to your models advantage?"
"...oh"

Particularly with re-rolls, biccat. Consider a re-rollable 3+ or a 2+? Should percentages come into play? 2+ is clearly the "best" (agreeing with Yakface and Mannahnin on this), but re-rollable 3+ may give me a better chance of surviving the wound - which makes is the best "save" in that particular situation, although the 2+ is "best" as defined in the rules.

I think 2 shots at a 3+ is better than a single 2+ - can't do the math right now because my brain doesn't want to work. So which is "best"? Do I have to take a higher chance of dying because of some rule that maybe didn't consider a single situation that could plausibly come into play?

TheRedArmy wrote:Particularly with re-rolls, biccat. Consider a re-rollable 3+ or a 2+? Should percentages come into play? 2+ is clearly the "best" (agreeing with Yakface and Mannahnin on this), but re-rollable 3+ may give me a better chance of surviving the wound - which makes is the best "save" in that particular situation, although the 2+ is "best" as defined in the rules.

I think 2 shots at a 3+ is better than a single 2+ - can't do the math right now because my brain doesn't want to work. So which is "best"? Do I have to take a higher chance of dying because of some rule that maybe didn't consider a single situation that could plausibly come into play?

On a rerollable 3+, you save 8 times out of 9.
On a 2+, you save 5 times out of 6.
But a 2+ is defined as 'better' on page 20.

Therefore, the 3+ would be better de facto, while the 2+ is better de jure.

It seems that you have to take the 2+, but there's a missing logical step to get there.

ChrisCP wrote:Yes, when the advantage is using it, otherwise one wouldn't have an advantage - it would be a strategic decision "Models have the advantage of being able to select the save that is most strategically benifical at the time.". Especially as the concept of what a 'best save' is explained in the rulebook

"My models have an advantage"
"What is is?"
"Why it's that they always use the best available save~!"
...sometime later...
"I'm going to use my 5+"
"What happend to your models advantage?"
"Its more advantageous for my model to use the 5+ than the 2++ against that wound. "

Edited to present another view..... emphasis is mine.

That allows one to claim the cover save that does not exist for being in the open instead.

Right?