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Galador wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Yes, when the advantage is using it, otherwise one wouldn't have an advantage - it would be a strategic decision "Models have the advantage of being able to select the save that is most strategically benifical at the time.". Especially as the concept of what a 'best save' is explained in the rulebook

"My models have an advantage"
"What is is?"
"Why it's that they always use the best available save~!"
...sometime later...
"I'm going to use my 5+"
"What happend to your models advantage?"
"Its more advantageous for my model to use the 5+ than the 2++ against that wound. "

Edited to present another view..... emphasis is mine.

The trouble there is... you could have just continued the discussion

"My models have an advantage"
"What is is?"
"Why it's that they always use the best available save~!"
...sometime later...
"I'm going to use my 5+"
"What happend to your models advantage?"
"Its more advantageous for my model to use the 5+ than the 2++ against that wound. "
"But the rules say you have the advantage of always using the best save (a term defined on page 20) - not of making the most advantageous decision."


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@kirsanth: You might have lost me there, we're you saying that if one was allowed to use the most 'advantageous' save for the player that would allow one to use saves that were nullified by AP etc? But I don't 'see' the non-existant cover save that you're talking about!

How did we get onto nonexistent cover saves???

@ChrisCP
Where would have been the fun in continuing it though??? lol

But if you do want to continue on it, then I could keep going....

"But my best save to stop that wound is my 4+ armor seeing as how it doesn't negate that.... for once... and if I use my 2++ and fail it, thats not very advantageous for me, now is it??? But it would be very advantageous for you if I failed it."

And isn't making it advantageous for you the exact opposite of the rule??? ahhh, theories are so much fun lol

"But it doesn't talk about the most advantageous save, it says one has the advantage of using the best save (something that is defined on page 20)"

See the trouble is to use the most advantageous one in some situations will result in not using the best save (the one with the lowest #), which removes the advantage or always using the best available save.

generally our local group plays that if you take a wound, take whatever save you have that you want. since you only get one, (unless FNP) as long as you declare what your rolling its fine. a fail means a fail, along with any results. if i have 4+ armor and a 2+ invun, usually ill take the armor against a few lower shots like bolters. however if i take a whole smattering of wounds in a round i generally default to the 2++ simply because the odds of passing the save are better

DarthSpader wrote:generally our local group plays that if you take a wound, take whatever save you have that you want. since you only get one, (unless FNP) as long as you declare what your rolling its fine. a fail means a fail, along with any results. if i have 4+ armor and a 2+ invun, usually ill take the armor against a few lower shots like bolters. however if i take a whole smattering of wounds in a round i generally default to the 2++ simply because the odds of passing the save are better

And this is probably how most people will play it as there seems to be no foreseeable end to our great debate here..... heck, this might even become the next "Does Marneus Calgar have two powerfists and a power sword and how many attacks does he get?" thread.....

So some Khorn demons next to Fateweaver in cover have to take the 4+ or the 5+ rerollable? What if they are in a null zone?

DarthSpader wrote:generally our local group plays that if you take a wound, take whatever save you have that you want. since you only get one, (unless FNP) as long as you declare what your rolling its fine.

This is in conflict with the rules for multiple saves, which say "always using the best".

It's also contrary to the design implicit in several parts of the 40k rules:

Your models won't refuse to make attacks or switch off their power weapons because they'd rather stay stuck in combat for another round.

They won't auto-fail a Morale test because it'd be helpful to you for the unit to run or be wiped out so you can shoot the unit they're fighting.

And they won't use a worse save because you'd rather they die faster and that combat end (or because you want to save the better save for something else).

Your models, when it comes to making rolls using their stats, are always going for the best chance they have at that moment. Not whatever's better for you the player strategically.


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frenrik wrote:So some Khorn demons next to Fateweaver in cover have to take the 4+ or the 5+ rerollable? What if they are in a null zone?

There is a slight conflict here between page 20's definition "a Sv value is better if it has a lower number", and the rules on page 24, which say that the model uses the save which gives the model the "best chance of surviving". However, given that the latter passage comes from the multiple saves section, I think it's appropriate to take re-rolls into account, as the percentages are easy to calculate. 5+ with a re-roll is ~54%, so the daemons take that instead of the 4+. But if Null Zone's up they use the cover.

biccat wrote:

TheRedArmy wrote:Particularly with re-rolls, biccat. Consider a re-rollable 3+ or a 2+? Should percentages come into play? 2+ is clearly the "best" (agreeing with Yakface and Mannahnin on this), but re-rollable 3+ may give me a better chance of surviving the wound - which makes is the best "save" in that particular situation, although the 2+ is "best" as defined in the rules.

I think 2 shots at a 3+ is better than a single 2+ - can't do the math right now because my brain doesn't want to work. So which is "best"? Do I have to take a higher chance of dying because of some rule that maybe didn't consider a single situation that could plausibly come into play?

On a rerollable 3+, you save 8 times out of 9.
On a 2+, you save 5 times out of 6.
But a 2+ is defined as 'better' on page 20.

Therefore, the 3+ would be better de facto, while the 2+ is better de jure.

It seems that you have to take the 2+, but there's a missing logical step to get there.

I appreciate the opinion, biccat, but I'd like to hear more, particularly from some of the more rules-knowledgeable people on here (not saying that you're not knowledgeable biccat, rather that I am - don't misunderstand), and how one would rule if the question came up, if it was asked of you.

So again, I pose the above statement...

biccat wrote:On a rerollable 3+, you save 8 times out of 9.
On a 2+, you save 5 times out of 6.
But a 2+ is defined as 'better' on page 20.

Therefore, the 3+ would be better de facto, while the 2+ is better de jure.

It seems that you have to take the 2+, but there's a missing logical step to get there.

Continuing the logic above, and following the rules of the lowest common denominator...

You save on a re-rollable 3+ 32/36 times.
You save on a single 2+ 30/36 times.

Clearing making the re-roll better. Yet it is not "better" by the rule book. So in the tournament, if you are the TO, how do you rule, in pure RAW?

EDIT: Missed that end of that post, Mannahnin. Thanks for the input.

Wait if there is 4 bolter wounds on him from ONE UNIT, does he take all 4 on 2++ or roll them one by one?

You roll one by one. Page 62 of the DE codex.

biccat has it here, where rerollable 3+ is better than 2+, but 2+ is BY DEFINITION better. The game itself defines which save is better, leaving no need or room for interpretation. Also: individual types of armor saves are outside the scope of the BRB. Another also: there is no time in the game where a player is required to do any math past basic addition and subtraction in the single digits. Multiplication only comes into play with 2x in terms of beasts charging through difficult terrain and things like "2d6". Requiring the player to do statistical calculation is obviously FAR more than the BRB would ask of a player.

In terms of the usage of "advantage" and "always," consider the same sentence structure with a different action: "I have the advantage of always doing my homework first thing in the morning." Go ahead and try this out with other actions. The meaning is clearly that the action is always done, and it is subjectively an advantage.

My conclusion is that you must always roll the best of your saves, and the best save is the one with the lowest number. If the numbers are equal, there's no reason to force one over the other, so they player can choose in that case.

It will be funny if 40k requires at least grade 10 math to play

I can see why a player doesn't want to short out the 2++ save but that does not mean that 4+ is better than 2++ versus a bolter.