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Ok, I think this was covered before, but couldn't find it with a search.....

I am going to use Asdrubael Vect for the example, because he is the one I first had the thought on. Vect has both Ghosplate armor (4+/6++) and a shadowfield(2++). As we all know, a shadowfield shorts out and is gone for the rest of the game if you ever fail it. So the question is....

IF Vect takes 4 wounds, 3 of them from bolters and one from a krak missile (a.k.a 3 normal and one Instant Death) can I use the 4+ save from the Ghostplate for the bolter wounds and the shadowfield for the missile? It states on pg. 24 of the BRB that if you have multiple saves you would use whichever one is best for you( and it talks about 5+ cover vs 4+ cover), or whichever one has the lowest number???

I know that I feel I wouldn't want to waste my shadowfield on the bolter saves, due to the fact I could take those wounds and next turn get them back by throwing out an obsidian orb, or having it short out before the krak missile save and having to rely on a 6++ to keep me alive.

So basically, do I have to take the lowest number save or can I use any save that I want if I have multiple available? Its just a little vague to me when you tell me to "use the best save possible."

I think you are not restricted which save you want to use. I think it is perfectly fine to use the shadow field aginst the missile hit and the armour against the bolter hits.

Is a 4+ Sv better than a 2+ Sv? No a 2+ Sv is the better save.

Everything goes on the Shadowfield.

"better" is a subjective term. "better" means "under the current circumstances in your favour" not "lower". ( As I understand it...)

Lukus83 wrote:Is a 4+ Sv better than a 2+ Sv? No a 2+ Sv is the better save.

Everything goes on the Shadowfield.

I think a 4+ save would be better than a 2+ if the shot won't Instant Death you, because I wouldn't want to waste my shadowfield on a shot that I have a different save against...

The last paragraph on page 24 regarding models with more than 1 save has an example showing you use the lowest possible save.

Also thinking about the question, unless there is something I don't know about the shadowfield wouldn't you get to roll for it against all wounds if they were made by the same unit since all shooting is done simultaneously?

The shadowfield is a 2++ invul that if you ever roll a 1 it is gone for the rest of the game, hence the reason I would want to use it only for the Instant Death shots.

IT also states in the part your referring to that the model always has the advantage of "always using the best available save."

To me, that says that I use the one that I think is best, seeing as its a advantage, and it may not be best for me to use the shadowfield and have it short out and lose it for the rest of the game against something that my 4+ armour or perhaps a 4+ cover save could have a good chance of stopping also.

Honestly not sure...discuss with your opponents beforehand or roll off would seem the sensible answer.

Galador wrote:So basically, do I have to take the lowest number save or can I use any save that I want if I have multiple available?

Nobody really knows. Particularly because the rules never actually say that you have to use the best save, just that the model has the benefit of being able to do so. So while some players take that to mean that using the best save (usually interpreted as the save with the lowest numerical value) is required, others simply take it to mean that you use the save that you think is best to use at the time.

Until GW FAQ it, it remains a grey area.

It gets much more interesting if you have re-rollable, or forced rerolls on saves:

5+ armour save or 4+ forced re-roll cover save?

4+ armour or 5++ re-rollable invulnerable save?

'Better' vs. 'lower' vs. 'most beneficial' vs 'most likely to succeed' are all perfectly reasonable interpretations. The way my FLGS seems to play is to take the lowest numerical save, even if you don't want to and even if you get re-rolls with a different save. I feel that satisfies the rules and makes the most sense to me... but to each their own.

DoW

Lukus83 wrote:The last paragraph on page 24 regarding models with more than 1 save has an example showing you use the lowest possible save.

Also thinking about the question, unless there is something I don't know about the shadowfield wouldn't you get to roll for it against all wounds if they were made by the same unit since all shooting is done simultaneously?

the old errata for shadowfields said that you had to roll your dice one at a time so if it shorted out you would imidiately lose its effect.

In this senerio you could take the Krak Missile first and then if it shorts out hes dead, if it doesnt you are good to go for the rest of the shots.

I think that best save is a matter of opinion, obviously if my Archon is taking some bolter saves from a unit but I can see there is a multilaser on the hill getting ready to fire I might want to take the ghost plate saves knowing that it might short out at any moment. I think my Archon himself is smart enough to figure this out too and would agree with me.

The rules don't say that a model can use its best save, the rules say that the model does use its best save. Nowhere on page 24 is there an indication that the player chooses which save to use.

The only reason I'd argue against that is because:

... the model only gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.

I think that the DE player has the right to determine which situation is most advantageous to them.

Ah ok now I see the wording, I would actually stress the following:

the model only gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.

Cue the argument about taking single words out of context and expecting them to still mean anything relevant...

As I pointed out earlier: The statement as a whole is that the model has the advantage of always using the best save. Not that it 'has' to always use the best save. What they mean exactly by 'having the advantage of always using the best save' is therefore a matter of interpretation.

How exactly is he supposed to use his armor instead of a forcefield that is presumably around him? Especially a forcefield that, once shut down by a lucky shot, can't be turned back on for the rest of the game? It's not like it's something that can be switched on and off at will. If a shot would cause a wound, clearly it's going to go up against whatever the most protective save is, with the implication that it blew through or past everything else.

I don't believe "best" is used in an abstract "the player knows best" kind of way, but more in the vein of whatever provides the "best" chance of shrugging off the wound at hand. Otherwise you could deliberately choose to take worse/nonexistent saves if you wanted something to die/take a wound for whatever effect, maybe Acid Blood or something.

So would a Terminator getting hit w/ say a Dark Lance want to take his 2+ save which is superior or his 5++? Oh..that's right he can't use the 2+ despite it being "best". (Not the best example but it makes the point)

I'd say the player is perfectly able to choose which save to take when.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote: It's not like it's something that can be switched on and off at will.

Isn't it? I don't recall the fluff ever saying anything to that effect. And it seems safe to assume that he has to be able to turn it off at some point... when he wants to take his armour off, for example.

Losing it for the battle is supposed to represent the field being overloaded. It has nothing to do with the operator's control over it.

I'd say that to be fair you take the hits on the 2+. Otherwise you are drastically reducing the chances of the shadowfield shorting out and abusing the "best save" idea. The 2+ invulnerable is clearly the best save available, while it may not be the best for the situation it is the best when compared to the others. I think of it like layers of armour. Therefor the shadowfield is hit first anyway. The ghostplate would not sit over the "cloak of darkness" or however it is described, or it would defeat the purpose of having one.

Rymafyr wrote:So would a Terminator getting hit w/ say a Dark Lance want to take his 2+ save which is superior or his 5++? Oh..that's right he can't use the 2+ despite it being "best". (Not the best example but it makes the point)

I'd say the player is perfectly able to choose which save to take when.

The lance is AP 2, meaning the armor save can't be taken, or at least can't succeed (and is thus not the best). Allowing the player to choose the save to be taken would mean that they could then choose to take that armor save, despite it not being able to succeed, in order to automatically take a wound for some arbitrary reason. Perhaps it's not a lance, but a power weapon, and it's the last member of its squad, if it dies whatever killed it will be out in the open, vulnerable to being shot at, if it survives, then whatever it's facing will be safe. Or maybe the player wants it to die because it's close enough for the enemy to assault it if it lives. Players can't normally choose to fail tests, why should they be allowed to choose worse saves on one model for strategic reasons?

insaniak wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote: It's not like it's something that can be switched on and off at will.

Isn't it? I don't recall the fluff ever saying anything to that effect. And it seems safe to assume that he has to be able to turn it off at some point... when he wants to take his armour off, for example.

Losing it for the battle is supposed to represent the field being overloaded. It has nothing to do with the operator's control over it.

The fact that it shorts out and can't be restarted seems to imply that it's not something that can just be flicked on and off rapidly. Of course it can be turned off, and turned on at some point, but fast enough to be used separately against different simultaneous hits?

Also, how is all this landing on Vect himself? Shouldn't he be wrapped in a unit? So just don't put the krak missile on him or something; you can take an Archon Court with him, and dump it on a Sslyth who'll get a FnP save against it!

InventionThirteen wrote: is clearly the best save available, while it may not be the best for the situation it is the best when compared to the others.

You might want to think about how to phrase that, as you've contradiction yourself there.

If it's not the best then it's not the best after all...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The fact that it shorts out and can't be restarted seems to imply that it's not something that can just be flicked on and off rapidly.

If I pour water over my desklamp, it will short out. But before I do that, I can sit here flicking the switch off and on all afternoon, if I really feel like it.

The fact that the shadowfield can be shorted out ultimately means nothing more than that the shadowfield can be shorted out.

What I meant was that although the save may not be the best for the situation (as determined by the player) it is still the best available by the book.

As in:

4+<6++<2++

The four is the lowest in the order.

Does that make it clearer?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Also, how is all this landing on Vect himself? Shouldn't he be wrapped in a unit? So just don't put the krak missile on him or something; you can take an Archon Court with him, and dump it on a Sslyth who'll get a FnP save against it!

I just used Vect as an example, thats how it is all going on him.

And just to throw another probability factor into all this, lets take a SM with their 3+ armor is standing in a bolstered defense for a 3+ cover... what if they get hit by something that forces a reroll of cover or armor saves??? Which one would you take then by the reasoning that 3+ is the best save???

And I know what is first going to be said, you would take whichever one you didn't have to reroll.... but how can you decide that if the main argument seems to be over only the numerical value??? I wouldn't agree to letting you take the cover save if you had to reroll the armor, as they are both 3+ but you can't chose one over the other as they are the same numerical value, and since you are saying that you can't choose a 4+ over a 2++, then would you be forced to take the rerolling save or the non-rerolling save??? And I think I just made my head hurt.....

Other than a 6++ isn't better than a 4+ then yep

"The force field grants a 4+ invulnerable save. However, the fortified building grants a 3+ cover save. Neither of these saves is affected by the AP of the weapon so the Chaplain uses the cover save to give him the best chance of surviving." Pg 24

If one looks at page 24 as a whole it shows that even when different types of saves are conflicting then the lower numerical value is 'best'.

It's funny really;
"I'm going to use my 4+"
"Why your 2++ is the best save?"
"Well I want to save it for later."
"Why?"
"...because it's better..." :(

Also on the funny note the brb says the 'model' has the advantage of using the best save, not the player, so I'd like to see the commander who channel his models and find out "Yeah that guy totally thinks his 4+ is better than his 2++".

Galador wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Also, how is all this landing on Vect himself? Shouldn't he be wrapped in a unit? So just don't put the krak missile on him or something; you can take an Archon Court with him, and dump it on a Sslyth who'll get a FnP save against it!

I just used Vect as an example, thats how it is all going on him.

And just to throw another probability factor into all this, lets take a SM with their 3+ armor is standing in a bolstered defense for a 3+ cover... what if they get hit by something that forces a reroll of cover or armor saves??? Which one would you take then by the reasoning that 3+ is the best save???

And I know what is first going to be said, you would take whichever one you didn't have to reroll.... but how can you decide that if the main argument seems to be over only the numerical value??? I wouldn't agree to letting you take the cover save if you had to reroll the armor, as they are both 3+ but you can't chose one over the other as they are the same numerical value, and since you are saying that you can't choose a 4+ over a 2++, then would you be forced to take the rerolling save or the non-rerolling save??? And I think I just made my head hurt.....

The best save is whichever would result in the lowest overall chance of suffering a wound. If you had a 2+ save that had to be rerolled, that would mean it had a 69% of succeeding, which is still better than any other possible save, even a 3+, but a 3+ must-be-rerolled is worse than a 4+ but better than a 5+, a rerolled 4+ is worse than a 5+ but better than a 6+, and a rerolled 5+ is worse than a 6+.

It just doesn't make sense for the player to be allowed to take a statistically worse save for strategic reasons, either because they want to preserve a shadow field, or because they want the model to take a wound so its attacker gets hit with acid blood, or so that a unit locked in melee is wiped out, leaving the attackers in the open and vulnerable to shooting, or because they want to get rid of the models that are within assault range for the enemy, precluding an assault, or for any other conceivable reason they may have.

Ok, I think I can see both sides in this quite clearly now......... I do have one other question about the shadowfield though, and hopefully this one is common sense, but figured I would pose it for interpretation once again....

Dark Eldar and Eldar are on the same side in a Apocalypse battle. Eldrad casts Fortune on Vect (they are both technically Eldar). Vect then takes a lascannon to the face, rolls his shadowfield, gets a 1, rerolls it, gets a 5.

Does the shadowfield fail??? I of course would say no because of the reroll, but RAW states that if a 1 is EVER rolled, the field shorts out. My arguement on this one would be that since I got to reroll it, the 1 was never the final result of the roll and hence never happened. However, there is always someone who wants to fight about it (and yes, this one actually happened which is why I ask it).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scratch that, just relooked it up and it was the old codex that stated if a 1 is ever rolled, the field shorts out. New codex states that if the save is ever failed.

It would do you well to re-read page 2 of the BRB too

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:So would a Terminator getting hit w/ say a Dark Lance want to take his 2+ save which is superior or his 5++? Oh..that's right he can't use the 2+ despite it being "best". (Not the best example but it makes the point)

I'd say the player is perfectly able to choose which save to take when.

The lance is AP 2, meaning the armor save can't be taken, or at least can't succeed (and is thus not the best). Allowing the player to choose the save to be taken would mean that they could then choose to take that armor save, despite it not being able to succeed, in order to automatically take a wound for some arbitrary reason. Perhaps it's not a lance, but a power weapon, and it's the last member of its squad, if it dies whatever killed it will be out in the open, vulnerable to being shot at, if it survives, then whatever it's facing will be safe. Or maybe the player wants it to die because it's close enough for the enemy to assault it if it lives. Players can't normally choose to fail tests, why should they be allowed to choose worse saves on one model for strategic reasons?

I agree with Sir Pseudonymous on all points. The model has the advantage of always using the best available save. That's always going to be a 2+ over a 4+ if the 2+ is available.

As above: the "best save" is always the save that gives you the best chance of surviving the wound. Because that is what "best" means in the context of a save, which is something that stops a wound from being suffered.