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scubasteve04 wrote:Space wolves are broken. Grey hunters get 30 attacks when they are charged instead of 10... for the... SAME FETHING PRICE AS TACTICAL MARINES.

Wow, 10 man grey hunters are so good that none of the competitive space wolf players I know run them in that configuration! The guys I know run them in units of 5 in razors. So it must not be THAT good.

scubasteve04 wrote:Cheap split fire long fangs that can be spammed to ungodly amounts.

...that can't move and fire, are vulnerable to anti-infantry fire, and to being charged without having to first break open a transport. Its jsut a shame they don't have any weaknesses at all. Except those three things.

scubasteve04 wrote:Thunderwolf HQs making the top CC units in the game.

They are pretty good aren't they. At 200 points per pop with the fist, shield mount and wolves... I sure hope they are pretty good. Especially when space marines can get a unit of assault terminators for 200.

scubasteve04 wrote:Absolutly slowed psyker powers and defense.

Take a breath. JOTWW is very swingy. I'd prefer it didn't exist. But as many times as it is unbelievably good, it is also pretty useless. the rune weapon is a streamlined way to roll a hood test. i hope all psychic hoods move to the unapposed roll. By switching to 4+, they did increase its effectiveness by 8%. Which doesn't seem like enough to break the game to me.

scubasteve04 wrote:Its not bad when loyal SW players play balanced, themed lists. What kills it when people are like "HURRR 15 LONG FANGS, TWC LORDs, RUNE PRIESTS JAWS OF WORLD WOLF" in a friendly setting that really hurts SW reputation. Save it for tournaments, and know that its the codex winning, not you.

Well thank goodness that there are people telling other people what they should or should not be playing in a "friendly setting". Without the fun police, we'd all just quit 40k. If its a friendly setting, then its your friend you are playing against. If its a large game store 'open gaming' situation, then you can choose not to play against armies you don't think you can beat. I don't have trouble beating space wolves... but I'm sure I'm playing with something "broken" and "tourney only" too.

Is it easier to just label something broken than to actually help the OP who just asked for some simple list building advice for his ork army?

Thank you for that shep.... I had to stay out of this as soon as I saw Redbeard's comment...

olympia wrote:And of course the GW battlewagon has a very small front profile so damn near everything should be able to get side armor shots on a battlewagon.

And as we all know, if something has a chance of dying on the battlefield it has no place in our army list.

Shep wrote:
Wow, 10 man grey hunters are so good that none of the competitive space wolf players I know run them in that configuration! The guys I know run them in units of 5 in razors. So it must not be THAT good.

So, a 5 man grey hunter squad can take a Special weapon, where a 5man Tactical squad cannot. 5 Grey hunters get 15 attacks when charged when tactical marines get 6, just further proving the point of how stupidly imbalanced grey hunters are compared to their codex brothers.

Shep wrote:
...that can't move and fire, are vulnerable to anti-infantry fire, and to being charged without having to first break open a transport. Its jsut a shame they don't have any weaknesses at all. Except those three things.

All stationary infantry weapons teams have the excact same problems. Lootas, Devs, HWTs, the only difference is Long Fangs are undercosted and imbalanced compared to the others.

Shep wrote:
They are pretty good aren't they. At 200 points per pop with the fist, shield mount and wolves... I sure hope they are pretty good. Especially when space marines can get a unit of assault terminators for 200.

Thunderwolves are one of the top tier CC units, if not the top. Thunderwolves will run through TH/SS terminators like they were nothing.

Shep wrote:
Take a breath. JOTWW is very swingy. I'd prefer it didn't exist. But as many times as it is unbelievably good, it is also pretty useless. the rune weapon is a streamlined way to roll a hood test. i hope all psychic hoods move to the unapposed roll. By switching to 4+, they did increase its effectiveness by 8%. Which doesn't seem like enough to break the game to me.

Swingy? A power that can literally take Carnifexes off the table on a 3+ is a little more then "swingy". Entire armies (Orks, Crons ect) are so screwed by this power its not even funny. I agree that some armies don't care (Eldar, Marines ect) but the power is still broken.

If they were trying to streamline the psyker defense, then the Psy hoods from the BA codex (which was made AFTER the SW codex) would be a 4+ as well. So SW have 8% better psy defense then all other MEQs, can take a 5+ on non-psy characters, and Njal does it on a 3+! Mephiston and Tigurus are better Psykers, yet Njal somehow beats them with this.

To the OP...

Expect a space wolves versus orks battle report soon. Kevin Nash will play the part of the plucky hero. And I'll be the skill-less jerk and take out my unpainted space wolf army against him. It is actually created using space wolves models shockingly.

I will try to get the game scheduled, the pictures taken and the results posted within a week...

I don't throw up my hands and say its hopeless...

But Scut, space wolf scouts suck, right?

Shep wrote:
Is it easier to just label something broken than to actually help the OP who just asked for some simple list building advice for his ork army?

We have tried to help the OP. Unfortunately, because of how not-broken the SW codex is, the viable options for playing against them are fairly minimal. It's like, you have to take specific things and other things are, statistically speaking, non-viable against the builds that the non-broken codex can put out.

It's like, put your guys in battle wagons and run special characters. Ghaz, snikrot and wagons. Or go home. But I guess being pigeon-holed into one build is a perfectly reasonable way of playing against a non-broken codex. It's not that you can't beat them, it's that your options are extremely limited if you want to. And that's not exactly what most people consider fun.


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Kevin Nash wrote: And as we all know, if something has a chance of dying on the battlefield it has no place in our army list.

Everything has a chance of dying. It's how significant that chance is that makes it viable or not. Battlewagons with a forcefield are probably the orks best bet. They certainly last longer than nob bikers do against JotWW.

Shep wrote:To the OP...

Expect a space wolves versus orks battle report soon. Kevin Nash will play the part of the plucky hero. And I'll be the skill-less jerk and take out my unpainted space wolf army against him. It is actually created using space wolves models shockingly.

I will try to get the game scheduled, the pictures taken and the results posted within a week...

I don't throw up my hands and say its hopeless...

Its not a hopless battle against space wolves, but they are still imbalanced, so its an uphill battle.

One battle also does not prove anything.

My marines can survive a charge from Orks when outnumbered due to superior stats, I cringe to think what GH can do with triple the attacks. Poor Orks

scubasteve04 wrote:
My marines can survive a charge from Orks when outnumbered due to superior stats, I cringe to think what GH can do with triple the attacks. Poor Orks

Wolf banners hurt too.

So wait, just so I am clear. The OP said in his opening post that he beats EVERY OTHER ARMY with his Orks and this thread is about the brokenness of Space Wolves and how Orks can't compete?

The worst part about Space Wolves is the army wide special rule "causes excessive whining from people who don't change their lists/tactics when playing against them".

All of the new codices are good (and I am thinking orks actually started the trend). They are all balanced pretty well against each other and have the tools to handle any other army.

If the Space Wolves guy is spreading out to get those side armor shots then won't a deffkopta with klaw have some fun outflanking? What about the 5+ cover that all ork vehicles have? How do Space Wolves ignore that?

OP had a legitimate question and most people have offered good suggestions. A few people have just complained as they do in every other thread that space wolves are even mentioned on. You guys don't like them. Fine, we get it. They aren't rampaging on the tourney scene like the interwebs would have you believe.

Maybe we can get the mods to set up a sticky where anytime someone wants to complain endlessly about space wolves they can just go there rather than polluting other threads. And they their reply can just simply be "go to this thread and see why we don't like wolves" to prevent any space wolf counter tactic thread from devolving into "don't play against space wolves, hurrrr".

Does JotWW affect jetbikes?


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Somnicide wrote:

All of the new codices are good (and I am thinking orks actually started the trend). They are all balanced pretty against each other and have the tools to handle any other army.

It's common knowledge that the new 'Nid codex is weak.

Redbeard wrote:

Shep wrote:
Is it easier to just label something broken than to actually help the OP who just asked for some simple list building advice for his ork army?

We have tried to help the OP. Unfortunately, because of how not-broken the SW codex is, the viable options for playing against them are fairly minimal. It's like, you have to take specific things and other things are, statistically speaking, non-viable against the builds that the non-broken codex can put out.

It's like, put your guys in battle wagons and run special characters. Ghaz, snikrot and wagons. Or go home. But I guess being pigeon-holed into one build is a perfectly reasonable way of playing against a non-broken codex. It's not that you can't beat them, it's that your options are extremely limited if you want to. And that's not exactly what most people consider fun.

Not every codex is gonna have 6 viable builds. That doesn't mean the codex is underpowered or opposing codices are overpowered.

Just because an opposing codex is at a point where you can't run flash gitz and win with them doesn't mean it's overpowered. It means flash gitz aren't a good unit choice. I'm sure I could find a way to make a space wolves list terrible too if I took every bad unit in the book in a crappy configuration.

Your version of 40k is one that mandates taking any unit in any codex and being able to win with it at all times. That's a very nice goal but completely unrealistic in terms of game balance. It's extremely difficult for game designers to achieve even two quality army builds in any codex, let alone what your 40ktopian view is. Orks have a way to beat space wolves just like most other codices have a way to do it: Build a good list with good units in it. Yes that means you can't take stormboyz or biovores or possessed or the entire necron codex and expect to win a competitive game with them. Sorry. That's reality.

Either accept you want to play with comp or bring a good list to win. You can't have it both ways.

Redbeard wrote:It's like, put your guys in battle wagons and run special characters. Ghaz, snikrot and wagons. Or go home. But I guess being pigeon-holed into one build is a perfectly reasonable way of playing against a non-broken codex. It's not that you can't beat them, it's that your options are extremely limited if you want to. And that's not exactly what most people consider fun.

That is a perfectly reasonable response, Red... I'm not being patronizing. Thats actually a pretty fair statement. But would it be alright if I extrapolated on it a little bit?

All of the complaints I have seen regarding space wolves really target three or four units. I see, in descending order of intensity... long fangs, thunderwolf mounted lords/cavalry, rune priests, and grey hunters.

What this means is that in order for a space wolf army to be considered "too good", that space wolf player is 'required' to take a very thin band of units. His choices are as limited as yours in terms of making the "good" list.

If an ork army that is taken to a tournament thick with space wolves has to take ghaz, kommandos, battlewagons, lootas, and shoota boy squads. Well, thats actually about the same exact requirements that the space wolf player has had to take. He has his one troop, his one heavy, his one or two HQ, and his one fast attack.

As the space wolf player takes less and less of the units listed, and more and more "other" units, the pressure on the orks is lessened. The more razorbacks that are taken and the more typhoons that are taken, the easier those vehicles are to be countered by your lootas and deffrollas.

In fact, if we pull down tournament data for ANY army, in competitive no comp tourneys. I guarantee you were are going to see this same narrow band of fielded units. Do vanilla space marine armies taking null zone librarians in a land raider with assault terminators bother you in the same way? Because the data from my gaming groups tournaments suggest that an overwhelming number of space marine players use that unit in every list they play. Are three ravagers going to start to bother you as dark eldar armies gain in popularity? Because you'll likely see the same number of ravagers as you will long fangs.

The limited number of units I am asking the OP to use in his ork army is narrow, because against competitive no-comp lists, the entire field has boiled their codex down to a half dozen units (out of a possible 30+). He is just joining in with the other tourney players. he is not being asked to do something that everyone else doesn't do to compete at that level.

If you want to play the orks the way you want to play your orks. And the idea of buying and painting new units or just altering your list in response to an ever changing metagame is just abhorrent to you, then thats a cross YOU have to bear. You are actually trying to guilt people into changing the lists that they have built for their own enjoyment in order for you to NOT have to change your list.

You control the environment you choose to play your games in. I respect anyones decision to refrain from competitive tourney play. Composition heavy tournaments like the Broadside bash this weekend exist for just this player type. But many of us play in no comp tourneys because thats the experience we enjoy.

I have found in my extensive tourney play, with both tyranids and imperial guard, and in observing my groupmates experiences with blood angels, orks, eldar, imperial guard, and space marines that after they had made extensive adjustments to their own lists, respecting a new and powerful codex, that they have not had difficulties reaching .500 win percentages. In fact, I haven't lost to space wolves in tourney play yet, with both IG and nids. And a fellow gaming group friend of mine Grimgob, has similarly not lost to space wolves yet in no comp competitive play, WITH ORKS. His list consists of those units we were mentioning earlier.

To summarize, I have data from our own no comp tourneys to support my stance that space wolves are a good army, but have not even come close to "broken competitive play". If a competitive spammy, focused list of any type faces an older, unadjusted and unfocused list, there will be discrepancies in win percentage. But this is not a space wolf phenomenon. This is one player refusing to adjust to a new player. Please do not blame deficiencies in competitiveness on a new codex. I've got personal experiences from countless tourney players and submitted list data from a full year of no comp RTTs and a GT held in Los Angeles to back up my stance.

if you don't want to adjust, don't. If you DO adjust, you can win a fair amount (I never said orks can build a list that beasts space wolves 100% of the time. Why would that be healthy for the metagame anyway?).

Somnicide wrote:
If the Space Wolves guy is spreading out to get those side armor shots then won't a deffkopta with klaw have some fun outflanking? What about the 5+ cover that all ork vehicles have? How do Space Wolves ignore that?

They actually get a 4+ cover save lol, and can be countered by volume of fire that Long Fangs can bring to the table.

So this is a SW hate thread now? Cool, just checking.

scubasteve04 wrote:
So, a 5 man grey hunter squad can take a Special weapon, where a 5man Tactical squad cannot. 5 Grey hunters get 15 attacks when charged when tactical marines get 6, just further proving the point of how stupidly imbalanced grey hunters are compared to their codex brothers.

That's right. And BA tacs get FC. Or troop Assault Squads. And Vulkan tacs get TL meltas/flamers. And Black Templars... What's your point? Different troops get different abilities. Are GHs good? Yes. Are they broken because they get 2 special instead of a heavy and special and Counter Attack instead of Combat Tactics? Hardly. Tacs aren't designed to be CC monsters. Many players don't like that. Not a flaw in tacs, just a mismatch in style- go BT, BA, SW, CSM, etc. if you want more fighty troops.

scubasteve04 wrote:
All stationary infantry weapons teams have the excact same problems. Lootas, Devs, HWTs, the only difference is Long Fangs are undercosted and imbalanced compared to the others.

Yep, lootas aren't undercosted at all. An BA tacs pay alot more for MLs.... wait a sec....

scubasteve04 wrote:
Thunderwolves are one of the top tier CC units, if not the top. Thunderwolves will run through TH/SS terminators like they were nothing.

And still die like flies to plasma, melta, battlecannons, etc. Unless you jack their cost up with stormshield. But then they also run twice the cost of an assault terminator and massed fire still brings them down fine. Well, as well CSM w/a nurgle icon, anyway.

scubasteve04 wrote:
Swingy? A power that can literally take Carnifexes off the table on a 3+ is a little more then "swingy". Entire armies (Orks, Crons ect) are so screwed by this power its not even funny. I agree that some armies don't care (Eldar, Marines ect) but the power is still broken.

Jaws is a poorly designed power and I wished it never saw print. Way too rock paper scissors. The fact that it beats up on subpar codexes doesn't help.

scubasteve04 wrote:
If they were trying to streamline the psyker defense, then the Psy hoods from the BA codex (which was made AFTER the SW codex) would be a 4+ as well. So SW have 8% better psy defense then all other MEQs, can take a 5+ on non-psy characters, and Njal does it on a 3+! Mephiston and Tigurus are better Psykers, yet Njal somehow beats them with this.

Special characters often do kooky things. Njal shuts down psykers, hardly that impressive. Meph is far more scary.

Sounds like alot of sour grapes that C:SM don't play like how you like. SWs are good, no doubt, but not broken. Repetitive lists certainly do get old, and I can appreciate that seeing 15 LFs every time a SW player sets up can get dull. OTO, this is the first time in years that my old metal LFs are actually worth putting on the table. And cherry picking the best units to point to "brokeness" without looking at the overall list is a bit disingenious. You don't see TWC in every list, for example.

I think the bigger issue is that some Codexes lack alot in the way of competitive options (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Tau), not that SWs has too many.

Somnicide wrote:

All of the new codices are good (and I am thinking orks actually started the trend). They are all balanced pretty well against each other and have the tools to handle any other army.

Actually don't blame that on the Orks. Its been going on for years... Does anybody remember when the current Eldar codex came out... I don't but I've heard legends. In fact the Eldar codex was so powerful when it came out that many people at the hobby shops I play at are STILL convinced that Eldar are the most broken race in the game. Maybe Space Wolves and Blood Angels have changed that, but many people who have played the game for a while still fear the Eldar.

Anyway from the looks of this thread, the majority of the suggestions for beating a tournament Space Wolves list (LF spam, Thunderwolves, and razors) is to take a... tournament ork list (wagons, KFF, lootas). Well Gee, that makes sense.

If somebody is playing a cut throat list, you shouldn't expect to fight on equal footing unless you are also playing a cut-throat list. Any of the strong tourney armies can run cut throat lists that will fight on par with the wolves. Its just tough .

While I won't argue that the Furry codex isn't *too* good- I actually think that the glitter marines are more OTT- but thats not the point at all. What I am asserting is that beating a cut throat space wolf list is very possible with other cut throat lists, and I am nearly certain Orks are very capable of doing just that. Orks- at least certain builds- are still a top tier head krumpin army.

@Shep: tl;dr So shep, is it your opinion that regular tactical marines are over-priced or is it the case that Grey Hunters are under-priced?

the only argument i bring to the table is this, if the codex is so fair as many space wolf players claim, then why is it quite possibly the most controversial and hotly debated rulebook in 40k? there's a reason you don't have threads raging about Dark Eldar, Blood Angels (aside from mephiston/slowed fluff), or any other army aside form maybe Guard once in while, while you can see a space wolf flame war crop up every week.

olympia wrote:@Shep: tl;dr So shep, is it your opinion that regular tactical marines are over-priced or is it the case that Grey Hunters are under-priced?

neither. it is an apples to oranges comparison.

Shep wrote:
That is a perfectly reasonable response, Red... I'm not being patronizing. Thats actually a pretty fair statement. But would it be alright if I extrapolated on it a little bit?

All of the complaints I have seen regarding space wolves really target three or four units. I see, in descending order of intensity... long fangs, thunderwolf mounted lords/cavalry, rune priests, and grey hunters.

What this means is that in order for a space wolfsdfdfsdf..............................
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Ok, my Issue is not the cookie cutter tourny style play you seem to be justifying. I always advocate the use of the strongest units in a certain codex.

My issue is the blatent cross comparisions you can draw from SW and the rest of the MEQ world, and they are always in favor of the SW.

-Grey Hunters get 3 attacks on attack and defense, whilst ALL other rank-and-file bolter marines get 2 on attack and 1 on defense? For the same cost? Why?????????????????!

-8% better Pysker defense from standard Rune priests then all other MEQ in exsistance, including Tigurus(dude who talks to the hive mind) and Mephiston(overcame the red thirst and is basically a demon prince)? Nyjal nullifies 66% of all powers within 2 feet? Any character can have psyker defense? Ugh.

-TWC that gives T 5, not T 5(4) like the rest of the marine world. Standard run-of-the-mill TWC Wolf Lord can be kitted out to go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything in the game barring a Ctan.

-Devs with better leadership, cheaper weapons, more weapons per squad, and can split fire. Shoot me in the face please.

What makes SW so special? Are they the Emperors personal bodyguard or something? Best Marines ever?



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Somnicide wrote:

olympia wrote:@Shep: tl;dr So shep, is it your opinion that regular tactical marines are over-priced or is it the case that Grey Hunters are under-priced?

neither. it is an apples to oranges comparison.

Actually, your pretty much comparing apples here.

akaen- Yeah, there ia always a list someone cries about. Tri-falc eldar in 4th were ridiculous. Nidzilla was bonkers for a while. Etc., etc.

scubasteve: Of course Space Wolves are the best marines ever! They are vikings....IN SPACE! ;-)

Tacs are overpriced/underequipped. Said that when they came out compared to CSM. Should have BP/Bolter/CCW. All basic marines should.

And you know BA devs pay the same price as SW for a missile launcher right? No split fire, but they get a signum and can get bodies to soak fire. I am actually surprised I don't see more 12 missile lists with a sanguinary priest hanging around to make them really hard to get rid of!

@scubasteve

how much are 5 wolf guard in terminator armor with thunder hammer storm shield?

Which unit has null zone?

What slot are the predators that can move 12" and fire? And move 18"

What is the mephiston equivalent?

Which special character makes space wolf bikes troops?

Which special character makes space wolf meltas and flamers twin linked, and master crafts their thunderhammers?

What slot is the 50 point model that gives everyone in 6" FNP and furious charge?

Do space wolf razorbacks move 12" and fire? Can they move 6" and shoot both of the lasplas?

Do they have fearless terminators that can have THSS and cyclone missiles? Are theirs troops?

See this is an exercise in futility. You are comparing apples to oranges as has been said before. And LOOK I can do it too.

I shouldnt be posting this, as its WAY off-topic... but grats, you baited me.

Shep wrote:
All of the complaints I have seen regarding space wolves really target three or four units. I see, in descending order of intensity... long fangs, thunderwolf mounted lords/cavalry, rune priests, and grey hunters.

What this means is that in order for a space wolf army to be considered "too good", that space wolf player is 'required' to take a very thin band of units. His choices are as limited as yours in terms of making the "good" list.

I'm not sure I agree with you here. Well, I am, but not for the same reasons. The Space Wolf player has several options that could be competitive, only, they're not as good as the other options in his own codex. He's not being limited by what ork players take, he's limited by what other space wolf players can take. HF/MM speeders and Typhoons factor in other marine army lists and are perfectly serviceable units in those codexes. But, in the Space Wolf codex, they're not as good/cheap as the Cav or Long Fangs.

So, what I see is:
Codex Space Wolves is the limiting factor on Codex Space Wolves. There are plenty of decent options in the codex, and they compete against each other, not external forces, for inclusion.

Codex Space Wolves is also the limiting factor on other MEQ armies, other than Blood Angels. And I say this because of the number of Marine and Chaos Marine players that have jumped ship to Codex: Space Wolves.
Codex Space Wolves is the limiting factor on Codex: Chaos Daemons. JotWW takes Nurgle Daemons out of the picture, among other things. Massed cheap missiles, and a 'better' deathstar limit Crushers too. I expect Codex: Grey Knights to further limit Daemons
Codex Space Wolves is a limiting factor on Codex: Orks. I think Blood Angels assault troops and FnP limits foot-slogging boyz, but Space Wolves limit most other Ork builds.
Codex Space Wolves is a limit on Tyranids. JotWW and massed missiles take a lot of otherwise viable builds out of the picture.

Eldar/Tau/Necrons are all simply showing age. Blood Angels and Guard are internally limited (you're picking from among good units in your own book, rather than being constricted by outside forces as much), and I don't know enough about how Dark Eldar fit in yet to really fit them in.

The above doesn't mean that the limited army will always lose to the other, what it means is that the number of viable choices in their codex are restricted by the existence of the other. Pre-Codex: Space Wolves, the Great Unclean One was a good choice. Post-Codex:Space Wolves, he really isn't. That's a limit.

Anyway, you can agree or disagree with the above, but it's how I see the current competitive environment. And, it's why I believe Space Wolves are 'broken'. No single other codex creates so many external limits on other codexes as this one. It single-handedly takes any low initiative MC approach out of the game. With the trumpiest of deathstars, it scares off other deathstar armies. With superiour, cheap shooting, it knocks out other shooty forces.

I agree with most of your other points. In any meta-game, some things will be viable and some will not, and lists will evolve towards the viable. That's fine. They published it, it's legal, etc. You can beat it, sure. But that doesn't mean that it's not exerting more pressure on the meta-game than any other codex. And, I believe, it's exerting more pressure on the current meta-game than any other single codex has in the six or so years I've been playing competitively. I don't think that's good for the environment, and I think it shows poor writing and poor playtesting.

Redbeard wrote:But I guess being pigeon-holed into one build is a perfectly reasonable way of playing against a non-broken codex. It's not that you can't beat them, it's that your options are extremely limited if you want to. And that's not exactly what most people consider fun.

Chaos Codex
Codex: Deathwing

We could probably argue over Tyranids, Eldar and now the Ork codex as well.

Getting pigeonholed into lame builds is nothing new. I'm not defending it, or saying it's good, or that there is nothing to be done except accept it and move on.

The meta has shifted, and not in a way good for the Ork 'dex. The good news is that the meta is still shifting, and in a way unfavorable to SW with the advent of the Dark Eldar 'we kill foot marines dead' builds and the ultra mega elite GK around the corner.

Neither of those dynamics actually make the Ork dex any better by comparison of course, but both of them taken together could spell a decline in 30 Missilewolves lists.

jmurph wrote: So this is a SW hate thread now? Cool, just checking.

Yea, you play the flavor of the month most OP and hated codex. Deal with it.

jmurph wrote: That's right. And BA tacs get FC. Or troop Assault Squads. And Vulkan tacs get TL meltas/flamers. And Black Templars... What's your point? Different troops get different abilities. Are GHs good? Yes. Are they broken because they get 2 special instead of a heavy and special and Counter Attack instead of Combat Tactics? Hardly. Tacs aren't designed to be CC monsters. Many players don't like that. Not a flaw in tacs, just a mismatch in style- go BT, BA, SW, CSM, etc. if you want more fighty troops.

All of the examples you have given are agumented by adding characters. GH get their abilities in their base profile.

One of the biggest jobs of a tactical squad is to move up, jump out of a rhino, dump 10-20 bolter shots into the enemy, then brace for a counter attack. Grey hunters do much better at this then any other tactical marine at the same cost.

They get a extra CCW and counter attack. We get combat tactics that let us basicly choose to retreat and be escorted off the board (or take no retreat wounds)

jmurph wrote: Yep, lootas aren't undercosted at all. An BA tacs pay alot more for MLs.... wait a sec....

LD 9, more HW than Devs, split fire, marines not orks, Str 8 AND blasts, not str 7

jmurph wrote:And still die like flies to plasma, melta, battlecannons, etc. Unless you jack their cost up with stormshield. But then they also run twice the cost of an assault terminator and massed fire still brings them down fine. Well, as well CSM w/a nurgle icon, anyway.

I don't think you fully understand the full capabilities of TWC so im just gonna skip this one.

jmurph wrote:
Special characters often do kooky things. Njal shuts down psykers, hardly that impressive. Meph is far more scary.

Sounds like alot of sour grapes that C:SM don't play like how you like. SWs are good, no doubt, but not broken. Repetitive lists certainly do get old, and I can appreciate that seeing 15 LFs every time a SW player sets up can get dull. OTO, this is the first time in years that my old metal LFs are actually worth putting on the table. And cherry picking the best units to point to "brokeness" without looking at the overall list is a bit disingenious. You don't see TWC in every list, for example.

I think the bigger issue is that some Codexes lack alot in the way of competitive options (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Tau), not that SWs has too many.

SW are the most powerful codex. I understand if you are an old-school SW player, and build varied lists. Just be aware of the group of FOTM codex hoppers WAAC guys you are being lumped into


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Shep wrote:@scubasteve

how much are 5 wolf guard in terminator armor with thunder hammer storm shield?

Which unit has null zone?

What slot are the predators that can move 12" and fire? And move 18"

What is the mephiston equivalent?

Which special character makes space wolf bikes troops?

Which special character makes space wolf meltas and flamers twin linked, and master crafts their thunderhammers?

What slot is the 50 point model that gives everyone in 6" FNP and furious charge?

Do space wolf razorbacks move 12" and fire? Can they move 6" and shoot both of the lasplas?

Do they have fearless terminators that can have THSS and cyclone missiles? Are theirs troops?

See this is an exercise in futility. You are comparing apples to oranges as has been said before. And LOOK I can do it too.

I shouldnt be posting this, as its WAY off-topic... but grats, you baited me.

Barring Null Zone (supported by Lysander, Vindis, Ironclads) you can pretty much throw some TWC at any of this stuff and come out on top.

Space Wolves are a top tier army with many powerful, undercosted units. Deal with it.

Orks suck, and have sucked for quite a while now. Deal with it.

What else is there to say? Try new lists. Try new tactics. Adapt! That's what part of the fun of 40k: designing a better army than your opponent's to win.

There is no such thing as a "cookie cutter" or "boring" list. Only bad and good lists.

Redbeard wrote:Funny, from a guy with a SWolves icon.... SWolves are the most overpowered codex I've ever seen. You get 5 missiles that can split fire for less than vanilla marines get four missiles. That's not overpowered?

Nope. Vanilla marine Devs are just underpowered. Take a look at Codex: BA.

Redbeard wrote:You have the best psychic power in the game.

Er, which is that again? Last time I checked, the best psychic power in the game was still Null Zone...

Redbeard wrote:Look, there's a reason that people have stopped playing 'their' armies, and started playing them as counts-as Space Wolves.

Yeah, and that's because people always play the new thing. A lot of those people switched to counts-as Blood Angels when that Codex came out too?

scubasteve04 wrote:SW are the most powerful codex. I understand if you are an old-school SW player, and build varied lists. Just be aware of the group of FOTM codex hoppers WAAC guys you are being lumped into

I'd say that's entirely debatable. At 2k-2.5k, it really seems DE are capable of shredding Wolfstar and Missilewolves. Razorspam is still very powerful, but BA do that just as well as Wolves.

dirtypete wrote:Here's how it is.

My Boyz have beaten every race they have played so far except the SW. Every single time they get railed, not matter what the list.

Longfangs tear me open, Logan comes down in a pod of death supported by more Longfangs. Grey Hunters race towards me in Rhinos or RB's, and if I get really lucky maybe some termies will pile out of a landraider I cant kill and eat me alive.

Does anyone have some tips as to how my Boyz can fair better against what is in my opinion one of the toughest armies around at the moment?

Back to OP...

I play a speed freak list that have done well against the myriad gun-line army.

The idea is that whatever list you're playing, you've got to deliver the boyz to their target and get the charge off (which, really is the main tactic of practically every ork army ).

I have 4 trukk filled with boyz and PK+BP nobz.

2 squad of 11 warbikers and PK+BP nobz

2 Buzzsaw+TL rokkit Deffkopta (in separate FA slot)

2 man rokkit buggies (in single FA slot)

Wazzdakka

Warboss on bike+PK, cyborked, etc...

Snikrot +Kommando (2x burnas)

Now, many folks don't like the warbikers because of their cost and they "can" be broken due to their low leadership. But, consider this... the warbikers can screen the entire army rocking with the 4+ coversave (3+ if they turbo'ed).

Then 4 trukks right behind them. I can usually get them into assault range by 2 turn.

I usually get 1st turn assault with the deffkoptas (go after the Longfangs or Rhinos).

Snikrot's unit... while he seems expensive for ork upgrade, his unit almost ALWAYS is worth it's points in the game I've played.

The key with this is having a list that forces your opponent to pick his target...

IE...
-are the warbikers getting shot at? Each unit can dish out 33 STR5 TL shots... nothing to sneeze at. They can potentially get first shot at the longfangs.
-are the 4 trukks getting shot at? Which either has flatted out in first turn (most likely) or is screened by the warbikers ('nother 4+ cover)
-are the two warbosses getting shot at? They're usually scooting around by themselves... they can be ignored, but they will hurt you in turn 2...
-Then there's the deffkopta, warbuggies and snikrot unit... while they may not be uber awesome unit, they just mess with the opponent mindset.

Basically, more so against the SW Longfang list... shoot the crap out of the TWC, but get in the long fang's gills ASAP.

But be sure you offered the DICE gods the appropriate offerings...

scubasteve04 wrote:

jmurph wrote: That's right. And BA tacs get FC. Or troop Assault Squads. And Vulkan tacs get TL meltas/flamers. And Black Templars... What's your point? Different troops get different abilities. Are GHs good? Yes. Are they broken because they get 2 special instead of a heavy and special and Counter Attack instead of Combat Tactics? Hardly. Tacs aren't designed to be CC monsters. Many players don't like that. Not a flaw in tacs, just a mismatch in style- go BT, BA, SW, CSM, etc. if you want more fighty troops.

All of the examples you have given are agumented by adding characters. GH get their abilities in their base profile.

One of the biggest jobs of a tactical squad is to move up, jump out of a rhino, dump 10-20 bolter shots into the enemy, then brace for a counter attack. Grey hunters do much better at this then any other tactical marine at the same cost.

Here is where I stopped taking you seriously. If you are jumping out of a working rhino, you are doing Tactical Squads wrong.

scubasteve04 wrote:

jmurph wrote:And still die like flies to plasma, melta, battlecannons, etc. Unless you jack their cost up with stormshield. But then they also run twice the cost of an assault terminator and massed fire still brings them down fine. Well, as well CSM w/a nurgle icon, anyway.

I don't think you fully understand the full capabilities of TWC so im just gonna skip this one.

Glad you did skip that one, it seems clear to me that you are overwhelmed by powerful units despite them being used sub-obtimally. I can see why you would have difficulty dealing with TWC when you dismount troops to shoot plasma at them. They still suffer the same weaknesses everyone does when trying to assault a vehicle: they are near impossible to hit, then you get another defacto saving throw on the vehicle damage table.

Shep really knows what he is talking about, even a cursory glance at his posts indicates that. Simply handwaving away his extensive (and incomplete) list of things other SM codices do better will not make them go away.

People forget that prior to SW, IG were the target of all this same irrational hate.