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Nurglitch wrote:Jihallah:

I think I already pointed out holding your Shoota boyz at that 13"-18" range from Grey Hunters to mitigate the 'pain' of Grey Hunters "getting in a pissing contest with da boyz". You can expect four Grey Hunter casualties with all 30 Orks opening fire. It's not unreasonable to expect two Grey Hunters killed per turn by twelve Shoota Boyz per unit including 3 Rokkit Launchas. That's out of six wounds that need saving per turn, which can be rough for six-strong complex units of Space Wolves.

So why twelve? The Boyz unit can have a footprint of two ranks fully spaced within the 5" sweet spot, and six boyz in each rank at full spread gives you the ability to shoot at targets up to 32" apart with a footprint of 14". Since they're armed with Assault weapons, they can adjust to stay beyond charge range of the Grey Hunters. And, of course, the more casualties you can inflict on the Space Wolves, the fewer that they can inflict on you.

All of which is made irrelevant by 5 Tcav charging 19 inches to crush them in CC... Please leave out the silly unit-by-unit meta analysis. He's fighting a list, not debating whether GH or Boyz are the superior troop choice.

sourclams:

Jihallah specifically excluded Thunderwolves from the units on his list...

Jihallah wrote:I love the advice in this thread, considering my the units I "spam" are dreads, speeders and razorbacks, not TWC and long fangs

Indeed, he asked for specific tactical advice:

Jihallah wrote:How about some tactical advice on how to get into a headbutting match you can win? That might actually be useful

After all, the headbutting match will be between Ork Boyz and Grey Hunters, specifically units of six mounted in Razorbacks. Maintaining that 13"-18" range is how Shoota Boyz win a headbutting match with the dismounted Grey Hunters. There isn't much change for dealing with Thunderwolves, except you let them charge in, demolish a screening unit, and then shoot them up with your entire army since they've decided to take the bait and charge into your kill-zone. Wait, why would they do that? Because any unit they could charge with Thunderwolves will be the bait: they're going to charge something, so your units need to space out only enough to castle up so it can shoot where any of its units may be demolished on the charge. Grots are handy for this: They can absorb a charge and evaporate so that they don't get in the way of the counter-attack.

Jihallah wrote:I love the advice in this thread, considering my the units I "spam" are dreads, speeders and razorbacks, not TWC and long fangs

If his list consisted of a big mek with a KFF, multiple battlewagons, and then he supported that with lootas, buggies, or deffkoptas... then his generalship versus yours would be the determinant in the game.

Lets look at it. The battlewagons under KFF are EXTREMELY difficult for you to kill from the front. Your razorbacks may only move 6" and fire, and if your razorbacks are consistently wrecking armor 14 under cover save, you are just experiencing an extremely hot streak. it won't last. So what do you do to kill battlewagons. you use your speeders. Lootas deployed on either side of the battlewagon clump will do an excellent job of knocking those speeders down, with most standard probability sets, the lootas knock down your speeders before your speeders open up armor 12 in cover. What else might you do? You might be tempted to spread your razorbacks wide so that you can move up a little bit and shoot side armor while he closes. Well, at this location, if the lootas don't get you, the outflanking deffkoptas will. Strength 8 shot into rear armor followed by buzzsaw needing 4s to hit.

The number of grey huntes that can fit in a razorback do NOT beat the number of boys that can fit in a wagon in CC. Unless of course he didn't take a power klaw nob. The don't shoot better, and they don't fight better. Power klaw nobs don't mind fighting armor 12 dreadnoughts either, especially when they are surrounded by 19 more boys. And its more likely that your dreads will be a pancake under the deffrolla anyway.

Before anything else. Make sure to read page 88 thoroughly, and ensure that the appropriate amount of LOS blocking terrain is on the table. LOS block does not mean, some trees. It means 3" tall at least and 6-8" wide, no doors no windows. Two square feet of LOS blocking terrain should be on the table, and it should be towards the middle of the table. After that has been confirmed, try a list like this OP.

Big Mek KFF

5x lootas
5x lootas
3x nobs 3x kombi-skorchas in battlewagon with deffrolla

20x boys nob power klaw bosspole
20x boys nob power klaw bosspole
10x gretchin 1x runtherd

1x deffkopta twin linked rokkits buzzsaw
1x deffkopta twin linked rokkits buzzsaw
1x deffkopta twin linked rokkits buzzsaw

battlewagon deffrolla
battlewagon deffrolla
battlewagon deffrolla


I'm not sure how much that is... or more importantly, what size game you play... but an army that includes those units is a fair and balanced one... not 'keyed' to beat space wolves. it has all the tools to beat the type of list Jihallah is running. Not 100% of the time, but you should be able to win plenty. Make sure there is enough terrain, make sure you always remember what the objective of the mission is, and practice.

I'm still not sold on deff kopta's, but the rest of the list suggestions that shep is making can and will make a solid core to any ork army.

I would up the loota count considerably though and I would take shoota boys.

Deffkoptas are for when you do win 1st turn, scout move + 18" assault means you're auto hitting and should get at least 1 penetrating hit, probably 2, on most rear-AV10. Really shakes up the parking lot.

Good all-comers Shep.

Or you could outflank them and get some shots in when you really need them

Nurglitch wrote:Jihallah:

I think I already pointed out holding your Shoota boyz at that 13"-18" range from Grey Hunters to mitigate the 'pain' of Grey Hunters "getting in a pissing contest with da boyz". You can expect four Grey Hunter casualties with all 30 Orks opening fire. It's not unreasonable to expect two Grey Hunters killed per turn by twelve Shoota Boyz per unit including 3 Rokkit Launchas. That's out of six wounds that need saving per turn, which can be rough for six-strong complex units of Space Wolves.

So why twelve? The Boyz unit can have a footprint of two ranks fully spaced within the 5" sweet spot, and six boyz in each rank at full spread gives you the ability to shoot at targets up to 32" apart with a footprint of 14". Since they're armed with Assault weapons, they can adjust to stay beyond charge range of the Grey Hunters. And, of course, the more casualties you can inflict on the Space Wolves, the fewer that they can inflict on you.

Too bad we don't play on a board with no terrain so he can do that. What about going through a chokepoint? Orks+funnel effect = bad.
It's all good to say "lootaz eat razorbacks/rhinos, shoota boyz in numbers chew up the marines", but when i deploy my armour out of LoS of the lootaz, then block their los after moving with a drop pod, what are you going to do to my transports? Deffkopta them, well maybe one before the deffkoptaz die? 30 shoota boyz might be able to klaw/rokkit them, but i reckon i can frag them quicker than they can me with typhoons/longfangs, or disembark 2-3 razorbacks and unload once they've been whittled down a bit. If I can't deploy in such a fashion - I'm going to drop a dread on the lootaz, probably another in the area too. So enjoy the target saturation my Dirtypete- you need your lootaz to fire at my transports. If they do for one turn, they're gonna get dread'ed, unless you do something about it. Dirtypete doesn't need fish, he needs to learn how to fish. Stop giving him fish.


See, the guy we bought the ork army off, he had some nasty cunnin' on the placement of his trukks. He was a good judge of distance, and some of his best games was where I thought i knew where his trukks would go and they would split off from the KFF and away into another unit i was not expecting to be charged. When you're waiting for the charge going "this mobs going here, this mobs going here, this mobs going here... I got this" and they start moving in other directions, towards your other units, is a "oh bugger" moment"

Shep wrote:

Jihallah wrote:I love the advice in this thread, considering my the units I "spam" are dreads, speeders and razorbacks, not TWC and long fangs

If his list consisted of a big mek with a KFF, multiple battlewagons, and then he supported that with lootas, buggies, or deffkoptas... then his generalship versus yours would be the determinant in the game.

Lets look at it. The battlewagons under KFF are EXTREMELY difficult for you to kill from the front. Your razorbacks may only move 6" and fire, and if your razorbacks are consistently wrecking armor 14 under cover save, you are just experiencing an extremely hot streak. it won't last. So what do you do to kill battlewagons. you use your speeders. Lootas deployed on either side of the battlewagon clump will do an excellent job of knocking those speeders down, with most standard probability sets, the lootas knock down your speeders before your speeders open up armor 12 in cover. What else might you do? You might be tempted to spread your razorbacks wide so that you can move up a little bit and shoot side armor while he closes. Well, at this location, if the lootas don't get you, the outflanking deffkoptas will. Strength 8 shot into rear armor followed by buzzsaw needing 4s to hit.

I'm bolding the bit I think is important. My first thought when i saw "The battlewagons under KFF are EXTREMELY difficult for you to kill from the front. Your razorbacks may only move 6" and fire..." I was like "Do you think I'm on crack or something?". Target priority is so important - The battlewagon full'o'boys is scary as , so stopping what stops it is vital.

Shep wrote:The number of grey huntes that can fit in a razorback do NOT beat the number of boys that can fit in a wagon in CC. Unless of course he didn't take a power klaw nob. The don't shoot better, and they don't fight better. Power klaw nobs don't mind fighting armor 12 dreadnoughts either, especially when they are surrounded by 19 more boys. And its more likely that your dreads will be a pancake under the deffrolla anyway.

Before anything else. Make sure to read page 88 thoroughly, and ensure that the appropriate amount of LOS blocking terrain is on the table. LOS block does not mean, some trees. It means 3" tall at least and 6-8" wide, no doors no windows. Two square feet of LOS blocking terrain should be on the table, and it should be towards the middle of the table.

PK Nobs might not mind fighting AV12 dreads, but Dreads don't mind fighting the boys too much either. Most CC's end either via a long slog (DCCW gets destroyed, then whittled down over time) or the boys breaking. Although the 19 strong mob has more success that the 11 strong trukk mob, but they still tend to a) lose a fair few boyz and b) sit there with 19 boyz knocking on a dreadnought shell they can't hurt.

And as far as terrain goes, we probably use a little too much to be honest. Love the implication though

Shep wrote:I'm not sure how much that is... or more importantly, what size game you play... but an army that includes those units is a fair and balanced one... not 'keyed' to beat space wolves. it has all the tools to beat the type of list Jihallah is running. Not 100% of the time, but you should be able to win plenty. Make sure there is enough terrain, make sure you always remember what the objective of the mission is, and practice.

1250-2000, generally 1500-1850.

sourclams wrote:Deffkoptas are for when you do win 1st turn, scout move + 18" assault means you're auto hitting and should get at least 1 penetrating hit, probably 2, on most rear-AV10. Really shakes up the parking lot.

Good all-comers Shep.

Too right. Deffkoptas are so versatile, love 'em

So, how about a batrep with pics of your next game so we can all armchair quarterback it with more relevance.

This weekend is probably the next brattle. I just got to remember two things, the camera and taking pictures.

-edit- and the third thing, seplling

I've had a lot of practise fighting non-WAAC SW (i play the guy weekly).

I've found that a Kustom Force Field will annoy the bejollies out of him, especially if it's riding inside a battlewagon with a bunch of burnas..

I've found the Shokk Attack Gun to be effective vs Long Fangs (as it has a huge range and AP 2) IF you can get it to hit.

Killakanz are pretty good,especially with KFF support.

Boomgun looted wagons and Killkannon battlewagons ruin any marine's day..

Spacewolves are assault puppies. They work best in close.
Either let them get that close, then open up with burnas, shoota boyz and other short range dakka, THEN charge the reduced squads (all ork guns (bar a few) are assault, whereas boltguns are rapid-fire) OR mug him from range with rokkit spam, lootas and Big Gunz.

Basically you want to play to your strengths without letting his strengths get the limelight. It's hard to do, as orks are a low I assualt army, and the latest Marine codexes have stuff that gets to massacre you well before you get to swing, but shooting enough guns will take anything down. Also orks are cheap, pointwise, so you should be able to swamp his more expensive units, or at least bog them down until a 4 CCW deff dredd can get there...

I agree, lots of tactics going on in this thread, would love to see these two armies go at it

Ascalam wrote:I've had a lot of practise fighting non-WAAC SW (i play the guy weekly).

I've found that a Kustom Force Field will annoy the bejollies out of him, especially if it's riding inside a battlewagon with a bunch of burnas..

I've found the Shokk Attack Gun to be effective vs Long Fangs (as it has a huge range and AP 2) IF you can get it to hit.

Killakanz are pretty good,especially with KFF support.

Boomgun looted wagons and Killkannon battlewagons ruin any marine's day..

Spacewolves are assault puppies. They work best in close.
Either let them get that close, then open up with burnas, shoota boyz and other short range dakka, THEN charge the reduced squads (all ork guns (bar a few) are assault, whereas boltguns are rapid-fire) OR mug him from range with rokkit spam, lootas and Big Gunz.

Basically you want to play to your strengths without letting his strengths get the limelight. It's hard to do, as orks are a low I assualt army, and the latest Marine codexes have stuff that gets to massacre you well before you get to swing, but shooting enough guns will take anything down. Also orks are cheap, pointwise, so you should be able to swamp his more expensive units, or at least bog them down until a 4 CCW deff dredd can get there...

I don't know about how good a boomgun wagon is... it takes a valuable HS slot that could be taken by a battlewagon, which is tougher and can get a deffrolla and transport 20 boyz. Same with the Big guns- really not scary, AND they take a valuable slot. I think the 6 or so games big guns were used, they killed a marine and shook a rhino. Whoo!

Ascalam wrote:I've had a lot of practise fighting non-WAAC SW (i play the guy weekly).

I've found that a Kustom Force Field will annoy the bejollies out of him, especially if it's riding inside a battlewagon with a bunch of burnas..

I've found the Shokk Attack Gun to be effective vs Long Fangs (as it has a huge range and AP 2) IF you can get it to hit.

Killakanz are pretty good,especially with KFF support.

Boomgun looted wagons and Killkannon battlewagons ruin any marine's day..

Spacewolves are assault puppies. They work best in close.
Either let them get that close, then open up with burnas, shoota boyz and other short range dakka, THEN charge the reduced squads (all ork guns (bar a few) are assault, whereas boltguns are rapid-fire) OR mug him from range with rokkit spam, lootas and Big Gunz.

Basically you want to play to your strengths without letting his strengths get the limelight. It's hard to do, as orks are a low I assualt army, and the latest Marine codexes have stuff that gets to massacre you well before you get to swing, but shooting enough guns will take anything down. Also orks are cheap, pointwise, so you should be able to swamp his more expensive units, or at least bog them down until a 4 CCW deff dredd can get there...

Just a few things I disagree with.

Ork players will need to be more careful with killakans after what I found out about murderous hurricane.

Space wolves are not an assault army but a counter assault army. They would still much rather shoot it out with you. They just don't worry to much about getting assaulted.

Orks will never, ever outshoot space wolves. Lootas give them a chance in certain areas, but that's it.

Something I agree with.

KFF is one of the best defensive war gear options for vehicles ever invented.

Jihallah wrote:Too bad we don't play on a board with no terrain so he can do that. What about going through a chokepoint? Orks+funnel effect = bad.

That's why I'm estimating only twelve can shoot at any one time.

Jihallah wrote:It's all good to say "lootaz eat razorbacks/rhinos, shoota boyz in numbers chew up the marines", but when i deploy my armour out of LoS of the lootaz, then block their los after moving with a drop pod, what are you going to do to my transports?

Destroy the Drop Pod, opening line of sight to the Rhino/Razorback, and then destroy the Rhino/Razorback. Duh. You're just feeding me targets.

Good luck locking my boyz down with Dreadnoughts, because they don't need to get within 12" of a Dreadnought. That's the whole point of the Shoota. Thank you for providing another AV12- vehicle for my Lootas to frag though.

Warhammer is all about inter-meshing your fire plan with the exact positioning of your models on the board. Did you just get the memo?

A unit of Autocannons (yeah, not exactly, but the same reliability), on the other hand, is how anti-mechanization works best in 5th edition.