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Here's how it is.

My Boyz have beaten every race they have played so far except the SW. Every single time they get railed, not matter what the list.

Longfangs tear me open, Logan comes down in a pod of death supported by more Longfangs. Grey Hunters race towards me in Rhinos or RB's, and if I get really lucky maybe some termies will pile out of a landraider I cant kill and eat me alive.

Does anyone have some tips as to how my Boyz can fair better against what is in my opinion one of the toughest armies around at the moment?

What list are you using against his SW? I play SW and Orks so i know both the armies and have Codices on hand

Yeah, Space Wolves are 40k's easy button.

Some ideas:

1) Neutralize those long fangs. You can run snikrot, or deathkoptas to engage long fang squads early.

2) Play the reserve game. If Logan is in a pod, he has to come in on turn 1. If you're in reserve, you come in on turn 2 (earliest). Hopefully Snikrot and/or the koptas show up on turn 2 to stop the shooty, and you can bring your other reserves on not near Logan, who will have to hike the table to get to you.

3) Mech up in battlewagons. Deathrolla his landraiders, and hop your guys out to get the charge. Ghazzie can beat head too. Even Logan goes down to enough choppas.


Finally - if you're not playing in tournaments and your opponent is running 3 squads of long-fangs, perhaps suggest to him that he step away from the crack-pipe and play a proper list against you. You'll have more fun in friendly games if your opponent isn't going out of his way to bring as many of the most broken units in the most broken codex to the table.

also mixing boys on foot, wagons, and kanz helps seriously target saturate the field so the rockets don't know what to shoot at. and why not let logan roll out in a drop pod? He comes down maybe smokes one wagon and then the nobs with ghaz pop out and wreck him (sure he'll kill a few but not enough).

Just a fun FYI, the "Logan Bomb" got neutered recently. Since he gives his free rule to people at the beginning of a turn him and his long fangs can't shoot their weapons on the turn they pod in since he can't issue his orders prior to being deployed!

As far as boyz vs wolves, Snikrot, lootas (their amount of firepower output is disgusting), and tons of boys. With any marine army, the wolves will be a smaller list making it much easier for you to murder.

Take Killkannons.

Snikrot works well against backfield shooting units, period. Space wolves have lots of these that are good buys that are plenty scared by him and his boyz. Deffkoptas of all varieties can also neutralize lots of threats- even a big shoota skwadron of deffkoptaz can tarpit a shooty dread until something else gets close, or even to stop it from firing, hit and run and go for another unit.

Target saturation works painfully well for orks with so many light vehicles. 2 squads of kans and a bunch of trukks can be a headache to choose from, plus juicy side armour brattlewagon shots and of course fraggin' da boyz. Convenient you got a box set for your birthday you git (for those playing at home, no I do not run 3xLF squads. I go two every now and then, but ones enough )

osumicrobio wrote:Just a fun FYI, the "Logan Bomb" got neutered recently. Since he gives his free rule to people at the beginning of a turn him and his long fangs can't shoot their weapons on the turn they pod in since he can't issue his orders prior to being deployed!

As far as boyz vs wolves, Snikrot, lootas (their amount of firepower output is disgusting), and tons of boys. With any marine army, the wolves will be a smaller list making it much easier for you to murder.

Oooohhh cool. I did a Logan list (not a tournie list, just the Logan pod idea) for shenanigans a couple of games itwasn't that great (nor as fun as other potential lists), and I must say some of those rolls were ridiculous. I mean I took 21 choppa wounds on Arjac and saved them all in one round of close combat

And its true about marine lists being small- losing squads hurts bad. I'm trying to get Dirtypete to play marines and me orks so he can see what the other side of the field is like. I find that really helps to get the understanding of the strengths and weakness' of an army

osumicrobio wrote:Just a fun FYI, the "Logan Bomb" got neutered recently. Since he gives his free rule to people at the beginning of a turn him and his long fangs can't shoot their weapons on the turn they pod in since he can't issue his orders prior to being deployed!

As far as boyz vs wolves, Snikrot, lootas (their amount of firepower output is disgusting), and tons of boys. With any marine army, the wolves will be a smaller list making it much easier for you to murder.

What's your source? I just read the SW FAQ to respond to your post, and it specifically says the Logan can benefit from The High King on the turn he arrives from reserves.

So it is still a valid threat. Be prepared for it!

Yeah, the whining about how the codex is "broken" (it's not) and making up rules (Logan can'use High King ability turn he pops in- except he can- see the FAQ), don't really help.

The general suggestions are good- Snik eats backfield shooters, lootas ruin rhinos/Rbs, deathrollas crump LRs, and Boys w/PKclaw should munch a GH squad.

One thing that may help is knowing how many points you play. At 1500, for example, Logan and a LR eat up alot of points. Once he has that and 3 LF squads, he has about 500 left. That makes for a pretty sparse scoring force if he is adding WG termies (which do count as scoring w/Logan), and razorbacks. AT 2000, it becomes more viable, but you should be able to put alot on the table. And lots of boys don't care about missiles, especially if you get some cover. Kanz also help as they are cheap, draw missilies, and are tough for non PFist squads to deal with.

It takes just a glance at both books and typical space wolf armies to see that battlewagons are quite difficult for space wolves. There is probably a thread right now, somewhere on the internet, where someone is asking "What do I do against deffrollas with my space wolves?"

Take battlewagons with deffrollas, and roll right over all of his razorbacks, if his thunderwolf cavalry gets in the way rolla them too. You can comfortably fit 4 battlewagons in a 1500 point army and still include some loota fire support and a substantial model count of boys.

Space wolves don't typically take maneuverable anti-tank shooting units, theirs are static or move 6" max, and can't punch armor 14, their answer to battlewagons will probably be thunderwolves. If they don't also have thunderwolves along with their long fangs, then you'll really have no problem. Even if they do, you still have answers...

Use loota fire and shoota boy fire in oder to saturate the thunderwolf units so that they won't be able to gaff deffrolla wounds onto any accompanying fensrisian wolves. Once most or all the fenrisians are dead, line up as many tank shocks as possible, 4 tank shocks means 4d6 deffrolla hits, and 4 leadership tests, two things that hit them right in the breadbasket. 12 wounds caused on average from 4d6 hits, IDs 4 lords/TWC.

Space Wolves are death for orks. SW counter-attack and superior initiative hurts orks bad. Ultimately, SWs make mediocre players good and they make good players neigh unbeatable. Redbeard has the best suggestions.

Shep wrote:
Space wolves don't typically take maneuverable anti-tank shooting units, theirs are static or move 6" max, and can't punch armor 14, their answer to battlewagons will probably be thunderwolves. If they don't also have thunderwolves along with their long fangs, then you'll really have no problem. Even if they do, you still have answers...

This isn't completely true. Many, many Space Wolf lists have tons of Razorbacks, all sporting weapons capable of ripping through AV14 (Lascannons and Assault Cannons). The former, at least, has enough range where 6" movement isn't going to be a factor, really. Also, Battlewagons are open topped, no? So, you need a 6 to pen and a 6 on the glancing chart, but it's possible to kill one with a Krak Missile. Then make it large amounts of krak missiles, and we can see how it would be a problem.

Shep wrote:It takes just a glance at both books and typical space wolf armies to see that battlewagons are quite difficult for space wolves. There is probably a thread right now, somewhere on the internet, where someone is asking "What do I do against deffrollas with my space wolves?"

Take battlewagons with deffrollas, and roll right over all of his razorbacks, if his thunderwolf cavalry gets in the way rolla them too. You can comfortably fit 4 battlewagons in a 1500 point army and still include some loota fire support and a substantial model count of boys.

Space wolves don't typically take maneuverable anti-tank shooting units, theirs are static or move 6" max, and can't punch armor 14, their answer to battlewagons will probably be thunderwolves. If they don't also have thunderwolves along with their long fangs, then you'll really have no problem. Even if they do, you still have answers...

Use loota fire and shoota boy fire in oder to saturate the thunderwolf units so that they won't be able to gaff deffrolla wounds onto any accompanying fensrisian wolves. Once most or all the fenrisians are dead, line up as many tank shocks as possible, 4 tank shocks means 4d6 deffrolla hits, and 4 leadership tests, two things that hit them right in the breadbasket. 12 wounds caused on average from 4d6 hits, IDs 4 lords/TWC.

Not every Space wolf player runs 3x long fangs +TWC. I dont even have TWC in fact, most of the time the BW' gets neutered by a typhoon, sometimes a rifleman

LC's and tl-assault cannons do not 'rip through' av14 with obscured status, as most ork bw's have.

Sheps advice is sound. Just hope the ork player goes first so he can whittle down the str10 lc's with lootas.

If the space wolf player goes first, orks can have problems.

Ah, but if you look at the math behind ACs and single shot LCs (most SW players use las plas RBs, not TL las), crippling AV14 with obscured, you can't blubber about how overpowered the SWolves are and just give up ;-)

If orks go first, massed loota fire can cause a hell of alot of damage. Most SWs really on light armor, not LRs. And, as pointed out, LRs crumble to deffrollas. A squad of even 5 lootas should land 3 hits on average on a rhino. S7 v.A V11 means a 4 to glance. That is fine as it likely keeps them from shooting. 10 lootas will probably pop a razor a turn and then can turn to infantry and force saves. Counterattack and high I do help for SWolves, but massed boys still win, point for point. If the SW player is taking massed RBs, then it is prob 5 man GH squads which fold fast to big boy squads. If it is full 10 man squads, then there is less other shooting and their rhino can be shot down, or they can be shot up then multi charged in a Drop Pod. And don't forget that GHs test on LD 8 for counterattack unless they give up their 2nd special, so its not guaranteed.

But even assuming a full 10 man squad, you are looking at 30 attacks at I4 if counter attack works, otherwise 20. That is 5 wounds after saves or 3 or so if it fails. A 20 man ork squad gets 42 (48 if CA failed) attacks back + nob which should see about 5 GHs dead. (If you shot with pistols first, it kills 1 more GH on average.) Next round the GH squad should disappear. So far from impossible to handle. RF bolters is probably the bigger concern from GHs as 20 shots sees 6-7 boys off the table. If they are taking massed RBs, then it is probably 4 bolters plus a flamer. And, of course, a huge squad with mark of the wulfen and banner is extremely dangerous, but also draws alot more points.

Just know your unit matchups and don't panic!

Battlewagon spam

ghazzy

snikrot and kommandos

lootas

jmurph wrote:, you can't blubber about how overpowered the SWolves are

Funny, from a guy with a SWolves icon.... SWolves are the most overpowered codex I've ever seen. You get 5 missiles that can split fire for less than vanilla marines get four missiles. That's not overpowered? You get mounts that boost your actual toughness (as opposed to effective toughness, like a bike) making your characters immune to the most readily-available instant-deaths. You have the best anti-psychic tools in the game. You have the best psychic power in the game. Along with the ability to take 4 HQs, letting you double up on it if needed. You've got, at your disposal, the hardest-hitting deathstar in the game, the cheapest, most effective fire-support units, and a very solid core of all-arounder troops that can pack melta weapons, and can generally be relied to get 3-attacks, even when charged (compare to 1 for vanilla marines).

Look, there's a reason that people have stopped playing 'their' armies, and started playing them as counts-as Space Wolves. If SWolves weren't overpowered, chaos players wouldn't be using their codex. Vanilla marine players wouldn't be using the codex. I feel sorry for old-time SWolf players because they're getting lumped in with all the codex hoppers, but that's how it is. It's a broken codex that decimates the metagame and provides an easy-win solution for not-so-good players to fall back on.

you can't... just give up ;-)

But I agree here. You can't just give up. But you have to realize that you're going to need to pull out all the tricks to win against space wolves.

Counterattack and high I do help for SWolves, but massed boys still win, point for point. If the SW player is taking massed RBs, then it is prob 5 man GH squads which fold fast to big boy squads. If it is full 10 man squads, then there is less other shooting and their rhino can be shot down, or they can be shot up then multi charged in a Drop Pod. And don't forget that GHs test on LD 8 for counterattack unless they give up their 2nd special, so its not guaranteed.

I've not seen a SW player who doesn't put a wolfguard in their units. That second special is compensated for with the use of a combi-weapon.

But even assuming a full 10 man squad, you are looking at 30 attacks at I4 if counter attack works, otherwise 20. That is 5 wounds after saves or 3 or so if it fails.

Your math is off. If you make the counter-attack roll, it's more like 6.25 dead boyz. But so is your strategy. 20 boyz fold like paper to a thunderwolf charge, likely with no casualties caused in return. If the Space Wolf player baits the orks into charging 5 or even 10 grey hunters, then the orks are going to lose the unit they charged with in the counterassault. Even if charged by a second unit of grey hunters, the orks have lost their furious charge, and will lose combat by enough wounds that no-retreat will hurt, or they'll get cut down.

All the while, the long fangs are still posing their issue. 15 lootas, rolling 3 for # of shots, is mathematically unlikely to remove a long-fang squad in a round of shooting, and that's spending nearly 100 points more than the squad you're trying to remove, and getting lucky on that first-shot roll. Spread over the three units, if you try to match the longfangs with lootas, you end up down 250 points (30 boyz) and still depend on not rolling 1's for # of shots. So lootas aren't a good answer for long fangs. They're good at popping transports, speeders, and dreads. Snikrot can handle a unit, but won't be there until turn 2 (earliest), and if the wolf player spreads out the long fang deployment he'll be good for only one. If you can be sure of going first, deathkopta units might be the best bet. If you go second, they'll just eat the first round of missile fire.

AV14 wagons are your best gamble, but with 15 shots at it, you have to expect your opponent to get some result past your forcefield, and being open-topped, that can be bad. But it's as good as you're likely to get.

Lets not derail and poison this thread with a completely different and fiery debate...

Boiling all of this advice down to its most raw components, ScubaSteve has a nice concise little blurb.

scubasteve04 wrote:Battlewagon spam

ghazzy

snikrot and kommandos

lootas

The great news about all of these things, is that they are good all the time. They aren't "space wolf" hate per se.

Side AV12 doesn't fare well against the proliferation of SW heavy weapons. It's generally pretty easy for *something* in the Wolf list to get a side AV shot or two; either Longfangs in dispersed deployments or Typhoon speeders floating at the flanks.

BW spam is still probably one of your best bets against the SW missile line, but don't consider it a hard counter.

And of course the GW battlewagon has a very small front profile so damn near everything should be able to get side armor shots on a battlewagon.

Commander Endova wrote:

osumicrobio wrote:Just a fun FYI, the "Logan Bomb" got neutered recently. Since he gives his free rule to people at the beginning of a turn him and his long fangs can't shoot their weapons on the turn they pod in since he can't issue his orders prior to being deployed!

As far as boyz vs wolves, Snikrot, lootas (their amount of firepower output is disgusting), and tons of boys. With any marine army, the wolves will be a smaller list making it much easier for you to murder.

What's your source? I just read the SW FAQ to respond to your post, and it specifically says the Logan can benefit from The High King on the turn he arrives from reserves.

So it is still a valid threat. Be prepared for it!

A little late for the reply, but I was talking with some guys that are nationally ranked tournie players about it, because they absolutely wrecked people at our last tournament and I was worried it was going to dominate our next tournie, they said they asked about it and it got Errata'ed. You are right about the FAQ though, so I am not sure.

Snikrot with Burna equipped kommandos from what I've seen is pretty devestating to Long Fangs.

Gotta be careful with Snik's gang versus Long Fangs, though. They're probably going to pass their Counterattack test, and one squad will still get 19 attacks at I4.

To lose almost 1/3 of your Kommandos before you swing to a squad that's much cheaper overall is a pain. Even with the Burna power weapons, there's no guarantee that you wipe the squad in the first assault.

What is an Ork's base I? Won't furious charge boost them up over a marine?

sourclams wrote:Gotta be careful with Snik's gang versus Long Fangs, though. They're probably going to pass their Counterattack test, and one squad will still get 19 attacks at I4.

To lose almost 1/3 of your Kommandos before you swing to a squad that's much cheaper overall is a pain. Even with the Burna power weapons, there's no guarantee that you wipe the squad in the first assault.

Long fangs with heavy weapons only have 1 base attack, 2 for counter attack. Look at their profile= they trade their CCW for a Missile Launcher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

osumicrobio wrote:What is an Ork's base I? Won't furious charge boost them up over a marine?

Base 2, 3 for charge. Nobs have base 3, 4 for charge.

scubasteve04 wrote:Long fangs with heavy weapons only have 1 base attack, 2 for counter attack. Look at their profile= they trade their CCW for a Missile Launcher.

I thought they were base A2 due to being vets. Looks like that's just the leader. Thanks for the correction.

Oh gross for the Initiative, for whatever reason I thought orks were 4 or at least 3 (haven't looked at their codex for a while)!!!

Yeah, its where quantity of attacks can really cause problems for orks. That and no armor save to speak of.

Long Fangs are a classic shooty unit and decent CC will murder them. At most, you are looking at 13 attacks. While still impressive as its just as many as a normal tac squad when charged, they will die like flies without an as. Heck, if you can get a couple of flamer templates on them, they struggle as a S4 template covering 6 will kill a long fang on average (which is either one less missile or no split fire). Unless they attached a WG, LFs have no ablative wounds to give up!

I would still be curious what points the OP plays at.

Redbeard: Please take your gripes to a different thread. SWolves are strong, but not "broken" or unbeatable anymore than Dark Eldar or Blood Angels are. But they are all legal codex and good players will learn to deal with it.

jmurph wrote:Yeah, its where quantity of attacks can really cause problems for orks. That and no armor save to speak of.

Long Fangs are a classic shooty unit and decent CC will murder them. At most, you are looking at 13 attacks. While still impressive as its just as many as a normal tac squad when charged, they will die like flies without an as. Heck, if you can get a couple of flamer templates on them, they struggle as a S4 template covering 6 will kill a long fang on average (which is either one less missile or no split fire). Unless they attached a WG, LFs have no ablative wounds to give up!

I would still be curious what points the OP plays at.

Redbeard: Please take your gripes to a different thread. SWolves are strong, but not "broken" or unbeatable anymore than Dark Eldar or Blood Angels are. But they are all legal codex and good players will learn to deal with it.

Space wolves are broken. Grey hunters get 30 attacks when they are charged instead of 10... for the... SAME FETHING PRICE AS TACTICAL MARINES. Cheap split fire long fangs that can be spammed to ungodly amounts. Thunderwolf HQs making the top CC units in the game. Absolutly slowed psyker powers and defense.

Its not bad when loyal SW players play balanced, themed lists. What kills it when people are like "HURRR 15 LONG FANGS, TWC LORDs, RUNE PRIESTS JAWS OF WORLD WOLF" in a friendly setting that really hurts SW reputation. Save it for tournaments, and know that its the codex winning, not you.

scubasteve04 wrote:

Space wolves are broken. Grey hunters get 30 attacks when they are charged instead of 10... for the... SAME FETHING PRICE AS TACTICAL MARINES.

Surely this is made up for by other deficiencies? lol just kidding.