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Made in au
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch





Dashofpepper wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:where he proclaimed that IG was a hard counter to DE because he lost one game against them, when his opponent seized the initiative.


One serious tournament game....I've lost to them outside of the big event arena playtesting, and my frustration is in my inability to create a list in my codex specifically able to deal with that threat.


I hesitate to comment, because as it stands I am a relative noob to Warhammer in terms of playing the game
But in that thread where you said Mech IG were the bane to Dark Eldar completely, the list you posted was almost nothing but serious anti infantry
Now against a force where you need more anti tank than you had to survive, that wasn't the best idea
A problem even a newbie like me could see

But not only that, but you kinda shot down everyone who pointed that out, refusing to see that your list wasn't an allcomers as you claimed
Now I stress this isn't an attack against you, but you did the same as this guy here
You refused to accept the idea that your list, wasn't the type of list that could ever stand up to the one that you have trouble dealing with and refused to change it

   
Made in fi
Bounding Assault Marine





Have to agree with OP that 'nids just doesn't work against DE. Sad but true.

Space Marines 6700pts Tyranids 5000pts Tau 2350pts Blood Angels 2850pts Orcs & Goblins 1350pts
 
   
Made in es
Raging Ravener







10 to 20 devilgaunts in a spore can easily pop a transport and then reap the unit inside in a turn per 140-240 points.
If dropstrike within 6" for the spore to get its 6 S6 shots (BS 2, I know) Vs. rear armor you can get its contents out, then 30 to 60 S4 shots in their face should do the job...

Dude, they could even survive long enough to rinse and repeat again!

You can outflank a tervigon (w/hive commander) to provide synapse and catalyst or onslaught besides more fellow gaunts for meat/fire support and target saturation.

+1 on hive guard, too... thay sometimes seem to have some sort of restraining order area running for transports, and you can take advantage from that.

 
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Problem is that everything you want to take is in the elites slot. you take 3 broods of hive guard for transport killing and then no space for zoanthropes/venomthropes etc.

You need to kill those flyers and then tarpit their elite troops. So you are really looking for plenty of S5+ dakka and while they are good vs MC I don't see what else you can really field here ...

Hive guard - 4 S8 shots for a brood of 2
Warriors with deathspitters/b'strangler with a prime attached (deathspitter also) - 5 warriors and a prime = 18 min S5 shots, take them twice for 36 shots.
Tyrannofex with rupture cannon - 2 S10 shots, if fleshborer hive was S5 I would take it and acid spray is a template although S6 ...
Carnifex with dual deathspitters or devourers with brainleach (AP- but S6 and assualt 6) - 24 S6 shots for 2 of them.

I am tempted to drop to 2 broods of hive guard and go for venomthropes to give some needed cover saves. The extra S5/6 shots you bring to the table will hopefully balance out.

I would then also look to stick 2 tervigons and 20 gaunts in there for meatshield and FNP possibilities. You are putting out 70 shots a turn that can damage armour 10, with modest levels of suvivability on your weapons platforms (FNP from tervigon, veneomthrope cover etc).

Not optimal by any means but at least you will make them think hard for a turn or two ...


"We didn't underestimate them but they were a lot better than we thought."
Sir Bobby Robson 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

sennacherib wrote:
Why would GW produce such an unbalanced load of cheese thats my big question.


because GW balances everything against space marines only.

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in es
Raging Ravener







You could use a support tyrant (whip, devourer, commander, wings/guard) for counter-assault purposes and stuff, a couple (2x) hive guard broods (nuff' said), another couple of spore (19x) devilgaunt cleaning crews*, an onslaught/catalystic tervigon, a pair of naked harpies (TL R36", S6, AP5, 5" pie plate = DE crying) and 2 nice dakkafexes (double, =TL, stranglethorn R36", S6 AP4, 5" DEbane 2.0) and keep it all in reserves, just for DE player for not knowing where will you come from, and for ensuring a firing chance at full power from wherever you may see fit (cover? ) for every and all units in your list (around 1850 points, BTW). Now that's something.

* 6 R6", S6 shots, even at BS 2, could likely pop any transport if landing close enough to its rear armor, or anywhere near DE transports, then 57 R18", S4 shots upon whatever could come out the can are a threat to take into account. (for unit transported AND AV 10 as well)
That's some target saturation at 230 points, and if charged, enemy models in contact with the spore will be hit before being able to do their thing.

 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

Galador wrote:IF you get first turn, find out which transports have his wyches/wracks in them. Anything that has CC units in it, it needs to be top priority for you. If you can keep him out of CC, you stand a better chance.

Shoot any of his CC units to death, otherwise, horde or not, he will just slice through them.
.


for nids I think taking out the shooty squads. Take down the trueborn and scourges. Wyches and wracks cant shoot very well and thus are not much of a problem. Wyches might be able to tarpit genestealers for a while but I dont think they can win.

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Broodlord





Oshawa Ontario

This is not a pleasant match up. In fact, I'd say it's basically one of the hardest "hard" counters in the game for standard Tyranid Tournament lists. I'd be interested in hearing about some of Dash's match ups, but I can imagine how they went. Of the 10ish battle reports I've read + games I've played against DE, I think I've seen nids win once, and I'm not really sure how he managed it.

Why is it so insane? Well, Tyranids pay a lot of points for T6 creatures, which form the back bone of most tournament lists (Tervigons, Tyrants/swarmlords, Trygons and the odd Tyranno-fex, Mawloc and Harpy (I know the harpy is T5, shhh)), and it is largely negated by the DE army. It's like playing with a several hundred point handicap to start. Second, Tyranids are not great at busting up a mech list. It's just a fact of the 5th edition codex and why Hive Guard are a staple in virtually every list you see, it gives us a fighting chance against mech. Third, tyranids are pretty damn slow, off hand I cannot think of a typical tournament list (outside of maybe necron...lol?) that is slower then a standard Tyranid list, so the DE can run rings around us and pick the fights where and when THEY want them.

Are DE utterly unbeatable by Tyranids? No. That said, you better hope you are a MUCH better player then the DE guy or you have a super tailored list or it's not going to happen. This match up is also largely why I have shelved my nids for now, having a match up that you can't ever win does not make for a good tournament army. (Also space wolves...nuts to those guys!)

As for some of the other advice in this thread...

Harpies = LOL. T5/4+ save and 4 wounds. For what you pay for the harpy DE can get a venom with 4 blaster Trueborn. Harpy = 1 S6 Large template or 1 S9 small template. TB/Venom = 12 poisoned shots at 36" on a fast AV10 transport with a 5+ invul and 4 S8 ap2 blasters at 18". Combined with how easily the Harpy will die to the poison barrage it makes they LAUGHABLY bad. Math hammer shows that 2 venoms will drop the harpy in a single turn on average, that's ~140 points of venoms dropping 160+ points of harpy in 1 volley. Also, harpies are a bad choices in an all comers lists IMO, so should not be considered.

Pods + Devigants. Something I'd considered myself. Have several issues IMO, and I am not 100% sold on them personally. First, synapse. Dropping them somewhere without synapse means you aren't likely to get much use out of them beyond the first volley, and leave them horribly vulnerable to getting charged by a wych or wrack squads and broken/chased down. Second is targeting issues, they need soft targets to kill. That means de-transported wyches, warrirors and trueborn, so you need to use them in concert with Hive Guard/Zoans/anti-tank stuff. If the DE squad's transport is dead, and you get lucky and catch the squad in the open and you manage to wipe the whole squad out. Congrats, you just killed 60-180 points (5 man warrior+blaster on the low end, 10 wychs+toys on the high end) of DE, for the cost of your 240 point unit which is about to get itself bitch slapped into non-existence. Another point against them is the fact they are in a pod, which means a reserve roll. Not a big deal you say, but remember you probably won't have a swarmlord or HC Tyrant for the +1 reserve roll, and my experience shows that the Nid army's back is usually broken by the end of the second or third turn, so it's possible they will show up after you have already lost the game. Also, not a big fan of suicide units.


* 6 R6", S6 shots, even at BS 2, could likely pop any transport if landing close enough to its rear armor, or anywhere near DE transports, then 57 R18", S4 shots upon whatever could come out the can are a threat to take into account. (for unit transported AND AV 10 as well)


IF the pod lands withing 6" (risky), you are looking at about a 14.5% chance of killing a raider/venom w/ flicker field, not exactly good odds. Devourer fire can at BEST immobilze the raider since the +1 for being open-topped is offset by the -1 for being ap -.

The devourer fire will on average do ~1 wound on T3 per gant, minus saves; (Assuming 20 gaunts firing)
Wychs; 16.66 dead, full squad (~180 points)
Wychs in cover (4+); 10 dead, full squad (~180 points)
Wychs in cover with FnP; 5 dead, half squad (~60 points)
Incubi; 6.66 dead, usually a full squad, but not always. (~130 points)
Incubi with FnP; 3.33 dead (~65 points)

Like I said, those gants REALY need to make their impact in that first volley or they are screwed, and honestly, that's probably not going to happen.

Bah, the more I think about this, the more I'm convinced it's impossible.

Looking for Durham Region gamers in Ontario Canada, send me a PM!

See my gallery for Chapterhouse's Tervigon, fully painted.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

Gonna jump in here and throw down the rare 'disagree' on Dash.

Vassal is a fantastic testing tool, but it has a major weakness. 40k uses true line of sight and vassal is 2d.

I have been posting this advice in so many threads in the last few weeks that i feel like a broken record, but thoroughly read page 88 and ensure that every single game you play is played on the appropriate amount AND type of terrain. 6 square feet of the table should be covered with terrain, and 2 square feet of that terrain should COMPLETELY block LOS. Not a tree, or a low wall, or a gently sloped hill. We are talking 3" tall at least, and 6-8" wide. On average, 4 of those walls should exist on every table, and, as per page 88. Those LOS blocking features should be towards the center of the table.

I know Dash has had as much difficulty in defeating IG as he has had success in defeating nids. And I know he isn't lying, and I know why its going that way. In the same exact way that tyranids get completely insta-tabled by DE, the multi-lasers ad inifitum of IG just tear apart DE. Its NOT the codexes fault. Its the fault of every tourney organizer and every terrain set designer who isn't following the LOS block guidelines.

The existence of the proper amount of terrain does not take these matchups from 90/10 to 10/90. Its not swingy like that. Properly placed terrain of the proper composition just makes the games much more fair.

I have already played games against dark eldar with my VERY shooty and tourney accomplished IG list. I had first turn, and i didn't win the game. in fact i batrepped that game complete with ample pictures. i have also already played a game against dark eldar with tyranids and i didn't include a SINGLE hive guard unit. And i did not lose the game. that game is also batrepped right here on dakka with pictures.

As a member of a gaming group that organizes 6-8 tournaments per year, I am intimately familiar with the difficulties that a TO faces, you've got to secure a venue and sell tickets, which isn't that hard, but you've got to secure a large number of playing surfaces AND populate those playing surfaces with terrain. Coming up with 20-30 terrain sets is hard, storing them is hard, making sure its the right terrain is just one more hurdle that TOs just don't end up having the energy to jump. It is understandable, but they might as well just say "everything moves an extra 3". or "lasguns are strength 5". They are changing the rules of the game by not acquiring enough terrain.

So in a sense, you should probably follow Dash's advice. he goes to tons of tourneys, and the lack of tourney terrain is endemic. When not at tourneys he is playing on vassal, which has 2 dimensional terrain. In that environment... well, just play IG or space wolves really. But if you are lucky enough to be on the right amount of terrain, then hive guard who manage to get out of LOS will be MURDER on DE, if they can't solve that problem very swiftly, they'll just be done. Also, catalyst helps trygons survive splinter cannon spam, particularly if you've cut down on some of that splinter fire by killing some venoms with hive guard. You should be able to find some places on the table where you can get cover saves for MCs against darklight, as neither catalyst nor armor saves will help you there. you don't have to cut genestealers just because dark eldar exist in the metagame. Stay in cover with them and know that the poison he is going to use on them is poison that isn't going to be used on MCs, or more importantly, hive guard. And remember to keep your spheres of influence over those objectives, at some point, they'll have to come to you. Its a fantasy that they'll table you before its time to score objectives, if you built the right list, deployed and maneuvered appropriately, and the table had the right amount of terrain on it.

Please check out my current project blog

Feel free to PM me to talk about your list ideas....

The Sprue Posse Gaming Club 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Hell Hole Washington

thanks for all the advice. If i ever do face another DE list with my nids (i suppose i will) i hope to do better than just get clobbered. Thanks again.

Pestilence Provides.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Lack of proper terrain *is* a plague on our hobby.

I actually haven't been on vassal in a few months, and haven't really played 40k outside of weekend tournaments for quite some time either.

OP: If you're just playing a friendly game against your DE opponent, put some BLOS terrain on the table, ramp up your hive guard to 6-9, and see what happens.

   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

Shep wrote:

I have been posting this advice in so many threads in the last few weeks that i feel like a broken record, but thoroughly read page 88 and ensure that every single game you play is played on the appropriate amount AND type of terrain. 6 square feet of the table should be covered with terrain, and 2 square feet of that terrain should COMPLETELY block LOS. Not a tree, or a low wall, or a gently sloped hill. We are talking 3" tall at least, and 6-8" wide. On average, 4 of those walls should exist on every table, and, as per page 88. Those LOS blocking features should be towards the center of the table.


Lack of terrain is a HUGE problem for DE against shooty armies. It does not surprise me that it is a HUGE problem for nids.

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




I like a table absolutely teeming with terrain. It forces these twinkie armies and copycats to actually play strategically.

Record:

8th edition:
Tyranids: 5-4-3
Orks: 4-2-1

5th edition

Orks:18-5-1
Tyranids: 17-10-4

6th edition

Tyranids: 6-4-1
Orks: 3-1-0 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge






Beating Dark Eldar with Nids isn't impossible, it's just very tough. TBH I don't like your list...at all. 3 Hive Guard isn't enough. 3x2 or 3x3 is what you HAVE to have to succeed as a Nids player in a take all comers environment. Tervigons are your friend. You have none. Hormaguants are regarded as some of the worst units in the codex. Trygons and Trygon Primes could help as well. DS in and you are gonna be able to shoot down a vehicle.

List building is a serious weakness that I see here. It's tough to proclaim the sky is falling and that the matchup is impossible as you are running a list that I could see getting steamrolled by more than just Dark Eldar. I have a friend who usually runs:

HQ- Depends. I've seen the Tyrant run well with Tyrant Guard.

Elites- Hive Guard, I cannot stress enough how much you need them.

Troops- Tervigon...or two. FNP gives you a fighting chance. How you are playing Nids without one is mind boggling. Warriors are generally overpriced. Genestealers can work with a plan in mind. Termaguants and Tervigons are staples though.

Heavy Support- The Tyrannofex is expensive but can be a great addition. Otherwise.. Trygons are fun.

Fast Attack-Gargoyles, particularly a Gargoyle wall that wraps your force and gains FNP from a Tervigon gives your army cover. They are harder to kill than they seem. Ravaners can provide some speed you desperately need as well.

My main advice is that you NEED at least one more Tervigon and at least 1-3 more Hive Guard before your list can compete.

2nd Place 2015 ATC--Team 48
6th Place 2014 ATC--team Ziggy Wardust and the Hammers from Mars
3rd Place 2013 ATC--team Quality Control
7-1 at 2013 Nova Open (winner of bracket 4)
 
   
Made in ca
Member of the Malleus





Canada

Yeah DE are just a Paper to Nids Rock, the DE book is not exactly better then the Nid codex all around, just the way your codex merges with his is brutal. Tervigons can be good for another reason, the psych ability that makes a unit run and then shoot could be used to increase the threat of your Hive Guard. Any monsterous creature you take needs to do maximum damage as fast as possible, the poisoned weapons well just whittle you to nothing due to wieght of saves. You need to de mech and then get in and assault, which the speed of Dark Eldar is easier said then done. Like I said just a tough match up in general.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Whorelando, FL

20+ Gargoyles would help as well as it would generate a mobile cover save to your units behind them. I agree with Shep. Proper terrain coverage is a key component. However, gargoyles are so cheap that tyranids have the capacity to bring their own terrain. Poison isn't as effective on them as they are T3. Other than a few local players, I don't see anyone using these guys when they are extremely useful. I agree with Darthdiggler. Swarms of T3 models backed up by some solid shooting should basically allow you to win the war of attrition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/15 16:01:30


   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Gargoyles are king in the new edition. GW was thinking: make a plastic kit of them, finally make them good, and they can sell many models.

Record:

8th edition:
Tyranids: 5-4-3
Orks: 4-2-1

5th edition

Orks:18-5-1
Tyranids: 17-10-4

6th edition

Tyranids: 6-4-1
Orks: 3-1-0 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Hell Hole Washington

I have not had good luck with Gargoyles.
how do you deploy them. what use do they play for you. what upgrades do you take.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/17 06:11:37


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