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2011/02/16 20:14:12
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm a big Abnett fan but the part in Ravenor were a Pariah is burnt out is the stupidest thing he's written. To the point were I don't even consider it Cannon. I don't see how that can happen if anything the Pariah would burn out the psyker.
I agree with that. Why would a powerful Psyker burn out a Blank? It doesn't make any sense... Blanks project an aura that is a blank in the Warp, why would a powerful Psyker make them burn out?
Indeed. The Psyker is the flame. The Pariah is the lack of oxygen. This only goes one way.
It might not be that literal though.
If the Pariah was a dam and the psyker was the water then it is possible for the damn to break and once it does it will be hard to rebuild.
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
2011/02/16 20:17:31
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm a big Abnett fan but the part in Ravenor were a Pariah is burnt out is the stupidest thing he's written. To the point were I don't even consider it Cannon. I don't see how that can happen if anything the Pariah would burn out the psyker.
I agree with that. Why would a powerful Psyker burn out a Blank? It doesn't make any sense... Blanks project an aura that is a blank in the Warp, why would a powerful Psyker make them burn out?
Indeed. The Psyker is the flame. The Pariah is the lack of oxygen. This only goes one way.
It might not be that literal though.
If the Pariah was a dam and the psyker was the water then it is possible for the damn to break and once it does it will be hard to rebuild.
Whenever I've read fluff about Blanks, it doesn't indicate that they block the Warp, they simply cancel it out, hence why the Eldar were so terrified of the Cluexus Temple Planet, as the planet exuded an aura that had no reflection in the Warp. From that I deduce that Kamikaze's metaphor would be more relevant, as it were.
Setekh the Eternal, Phaeron of the Kopakh Dynasty, Regent of Nephthys 7660pts
2011/02/16 20:19:38
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
But wouldn't that mean if there was a psyker of sufficient strength he would be more powerful that the blank could cancel out...
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
2011/02/16 20:21:37
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
Not really. That's why I picked the lack of oxygen metaphor instead of something like water. Water can be evaporated away with a powerful flame but a Pariah disconnects someone with The Immatarium.
2011/02/16 21:37:00
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not really. That's why I picked the lack of oxygen metaphor instead of something like water. Water can be evaporated away with a powerful flame but a Pariah disconnects someone with The Immatarium.
AFAIK Pahrias are always described as blocking the warp, not as cutting psykers off. Hence, I believe that the dam metaphor is the better one. To use the "piece of cardboard near a lightbulb" metaphor someone mentioned, if the lamp is strong enough, the cardboard will burn.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2011/02/17 01:05:59
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
The psyker in question wasn't particularly powerful, but he was an extremely unusual variety. Something about operating like a mirror or somesuch... From the same book we have limiters that can dampen the field a blank produces, so the effect is apparently modifiable. If I recall correctly, it burnt out both of them, leaving both effectively normal humans, but it's been a while since I read Ravenor.
Melissia wrote:From my understanding, the weakest psyker who is commonly considered a psyker proper would be an Iota psyker. Anything below that and it's not true conscious psychic power but instead a sub/unconscious thing which they cannot control. Mind you there are many categorizations of psyker power levels, and even then they change over time as the psyker grows or shrinks in knowledge, willpower, and skill, but Zeta is AFAIK the point at which the psyker's powers are considered beyond normal.
I meant I'm not sure at what point they start considering them useful enough to invest time and resources in training, especially when they've been effectively rogue before being brought in. From the Dark Heresy novels again, the smuggling ring they were hunting was apparently only primarily interested in those of epsilon grade or above.
2011/02/17 02:04:29
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
In Codex Assassins, so many Pariahs were brought to Earth for experimentation by the Biologis Departmentorium that they began to block out the Astronomicon.
Be Pure!
Be Vigilant!
BEHAVE!
Show me your god and I'll send you a warhead because my god's bigger than your god.
2011/02/17 02:28:03
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The psyker in question wasn't particularly powerful, but he was an extremely unusual variety. Something about operating like a mirror or somesuch... From the same book we have limiters that can dampen the field a blank produces, so the effect is apparently modifiable. If I recall correctly, it burnt out both of them, leaving both effectively normal humans, but it's been a while since I read Ravenor.
Well the blank in question is Wystan Frauka and the mirror psyker in question is Zael Efferneti. It is an interesting situation. It has been awhile since I read the book as well, but I'll write down what I remember.
Spoiler:
Zael is discovered by Ravenor to be a latent mirror psyker. He is taken by Ravenor and made a part of Ravenor's crew. Later in the book (and this is what makes the whole situation sketchy when trying to apply it to this discussion) Zael is apparently possessed by a powerful demon. After running a muck for a bit Zael eventually ends up in a coma. However, while in that coma his mind is free to play tricks on the crew. He is also able to mentally converse with Wystan (who rarely leaves Zael's bedside), a fact found odd because of Wystan's blank nature. Over time, the brute forces of Zael's demon-altered mind (it is not entirely evident whether the demon has left the boy or not) begins to induce bloody noses on Wystan indicating that the boy is over-powering his "blankness". Eventually, if my memory serves correctly, Wystan succumbs to this effect and either dies or passes out.
What makes this such a singular situation is the involvement of the demon. It is never clear how much said demon altered Zael's power and whether or not the demon is the piece in play which allowed Zael to commune with a blank.
*edited to insert spoiler box.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/17 02:54:15
The Fallen are the Dark Angel's most closely guarded secret. None but the trusted brothers of the Inner Circle even know of their existence. Share their burden by joining in their knowledge of that most terrible of truths: Summary of the Fallen ~2300pts Sons of Medusa - ~2000pts Black Templar DT:90S+++G++M++B+I+Pw40k02++D++A+/areWD-R++++T(T)DM+
2011/02/17 02:44:14
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
What? Zael wasn't possessed by the daemon, Carl was. That was a huge plot point: the mistaken guess that Zael was going to be the daemon's vessel because his last name sounded like "Slyte," when in fact Carl was the vessel of a daemon named "Slyte" (although the reader would have known this already had they read the epilogue of Hereticus, where Ravenor is credited with slaying the "Heretic Thonius Slyte"), caused by his use of the "fleets" following the incident where he lost his arm and had it poorly reattached.
Wystan learned this while Ravenor was missing after going through the tripartite door, and risks his life trying to protect Zael from Carl, and ultimately survives the whole ordeal. Both Wystan and Zael are taken by the Schola Psykana for testing, to see if Zael is still a psyker, and if Wystan has developed into a latent psyker.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/17 02:47:49
2011/02/17 02:52:52
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
Right. Possessed was the wrong word. I'm looking through the book now, but I seem to remember some...thing....
Spoiler:
Potential spoiler. I say potential in that I haven't found it in the book yet. I remember that Zael didn't get "activated" until having some sort of interaction with either the demon or Thonius. I'm fairly sure I remember that. For instance it isn't until about half-way through the book, and only after he is in a coma that Zael is able to do any psychic activity without mirroring anyone. He torments (perhaps "plays with" is a better term?) with Kys, and indeed the entire ship, only after falling into a coma.
What was it that made Zael fall into a coma? I can't remember that event.
The overall point being that the demon could have possibly been the thing that led to Zael being able to converse mentally with a blank.
*edited content in green.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/17 02:59:57
The Fallen are the Dark Angel's most closely guarded secret. None but the trusted brothers of the Inner Circle even know of their existence. Share their burden by joining in their knowledge of that most terrible of truths: Summary of the Fallen ~2300pts Sons of Medusa - ~2000pts Black Templar DT:90S+++G++M++B+I+Pw40k02++D++A+/areWD-R++++T(T)DM+
2011/02/17 03:31:36
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
He enters the coma after seeing Thonius manifesting Slyte to fight off the daemon sent after them, when Ravenor's psycannon fails to drive it off. According to what he said later, at least part of the coma was an act to prevent Slyte from realizing that he knew he was possessing Carl. I'm not sure what was behind the weird phenomena on the Arethusa, but you must remember that an absurdly powerful daemon was slowly breaking free through Carl, surely there must be odd effects to accompany that, assuming Slyte wasn't deliberately doing it to shift suspicion onto Zael.
2011/02/17 03:43:13
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
Right, but Carl wasn't even on the ship when these things happened. Was he? I'm pretty sure he wasn't, as that was the main reason focus was supposed to be shifted to Zael as the demon-host.
Once again though: The main point of my post was to introduce the idea that perhaps the demon was the source of Zael's unique ability (whether directly or indirectly) to talk mentally to a blank. That should be remembered when you include him in this discussion. Users seem to be glossing over that fact as though overriding blanks is an inherent ability of any powerful-enough psyker. That may be, but it may also be that this phenomena occurs only when "influenced" (I don't a word precise enough for what happened in the book) by a powerful demon, or indeed, only THAT demon.
The Fallen are the Dark Angel's most closely guarded secret. None but the trusted brothers of the Inner Circle even know of their existence. Share their burden by joining in their knowledge of that most terrible of truths: Summary of the Fallen ~2300pts Sons of Medusa - ~2000pts Black Templar DT:90S+++G++M++B+I+Pw40k02++D++A+/areWD-R++++T(T)DM+
2011/02/17 03:52:36
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
I prefer to think of it this way-- imagine a hole in the side of a space ship. Psychic power would be like debris tossed at the hole. If it's not big enough, it'll just go through and have no effect. If it is a big enough piece of debris, it'll block the hole up unless it is cleared somehow.
A bit tortured of an analogy but it works.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Psyker is the flame. The Pariah is the lack of oxygen. This only goes one way.
As with many things in the warp, it is not that simple.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/17 03:54:37
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/02/17 04:12:42
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
Right, but Carl wasn't even on the ship when these things happened. Was he? I'm pretty sure he wasn't, as that was the main reason focus was supposed to be shifted to Zael as the demon-host.
Once again though: The main point of my post was to introduce the idea that perhaps the demon was the source of Zael's unique ability (whether directly or indirectly) to talk mentally to a blank. That should be remembered when you include him in this discussion. Users seem to be glossing over that fact as though overriding blanks is an inherent ability of any powerful-enough psyker. That may be, but it may also be that this phenomena occurs only when "influenced" (I don't a word precise enough for what happened in the book) by a powerful demon, or indeed, only THAT demon.
Spoiler:
Yes, he was. He went through the Tripartite door with Ravenor, fought back the tyranids and forced the door open, and then was reunited with the others while Ravenor, Nayl, Angharad, and the cultist go back through the door to escape. At this point, Ravenor is told that a daemon opened the door, and realizes that Slyte was manifesting through Carl, not Zael. Kara was the only one who knew that Carl was the daemon, and he'd edited her mind to make her forget that, everyone else believed that Zael was the host.
I don't believe anyone's ever put a terrified mirror psyker in a room with a blank and a running limiter for months before. The whole thing's quite unprecedented, and since blanks are used to fight both daemons and powerful psykers, I don't believe either has burning them out as a standard property. All we know is that it's possible for a blank to be burnt out, for particularly strong psychic backlash to injure them without burning them out, and for their warp suppressing qualities to be both dampened and replicated through technology (we see instances of both in the Ravenor trilogy, and in Scourge the Heretic you have psi-dampeners used at an Ordo Hereticus holding facility on Sepheris Secundus to keep the psykers in storage while waiting for the black ships).
2011/02/17 04:50:22
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
Oh yes, there are items in Dark Heresy which can replicate the effect of a Blank. Quite rare mind you, but they exist.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/02/17 16:41:46
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
The Daemon is not the unusual factor here. Pariahs get involved with Daemon fights all the time usually they are not even seen by the Daemons. The only weirdness is Zael's mirror ability. Are we supposed to beleive that he mirrored a blank which in turn blanked the blank? Doesn't make sense to me. Still gonna say fluff error.
2011/02/17 17:35:39
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
It is Abnett afterall, that's why we have a Crozius shooting out lightning in Ultramarines: The Movie killing Chaos Marines by the handful; what was he thinking?!
Be Pure!
Be Vigilant!
BEHAVE!
Show me your god and I'll send you a warhead because my god's bigger than your god.
2011/02/17 18:25:27
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/02/17 19:25:36
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Daemon is not the unusual factor here. Pariahs get involved with Daemon fights all the time usually they are not even seen by the Daemons. The only weirdness is Zael's mirror ability. Are we supposed to beleive that he mirrored a blank which in turn blanked the blank? Doesn't make sense to me. Still gonna say fluff error.
He also had a running "limiter" (a device that dampened the field a blank produces, allowing their proximity to psykers without preventing the psyker from operating), I believe, which may very well have some psychic resonance or whatnot. Since the blank effect is both malleable and replicable with technology, Zael may well have simply mimicked the limiter in a more powerful or otherwise altered fashion.
2011/02/18 07:13:55
Subject: Re:Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
Blanks just don't show up in the warp, Pariahs actually have a negative effect on warp beings. For example: Tau. Do Tau disable psykers simply by being in contact with them? No. They're blanks. Do Culexus assassins? Yes. Culexus assassins are Pariah level psykers.
Melissia wrote:From Alpha Plus as the strongest, to Iota which is the weakest true psyker. Then Kappa to Omicron are weak psykers that don't even know they're psykers. Then pi and rho are normal humans. Tau and sigma are psychically dense, and are oblivious to manifestations of psychic talent but still effected by them if used against them, then upsilon to psi have varying degrees of resistance, before finally Omega, the Blanks, and Omega Minus, the Culexis Assassins being the only known example of these.
What's the source for this?
There's many references to Alpha, Beta, etc. But I've never seen any reference to a Omicron-level psyker, or anything that suggests that normal humans are Pi and Rho.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Daemon is not the unusual factor here. Pariahs get involved with Daemon fights all the time usually they are not even seen by the Daemons. The only weirdness is Zael's mirror ability. Are we supposed to beleive that he mirrored a blank which in turn blanked the blank? Doesn't make sense to me. Still gonna say fluff error.
He also had a running "limiter" (a device that dampened the field a blank produces, allowing their proximity to psykers without preventing the psyker from operating), I believe, which may very well have some psychic resonance or whatnot. Since the blank effect is both malleable and replicable with technology, Zael may well have simply mimicked the limiter in a more powerful or otherwise altered fashion.
But his blank power wasn't blanked, it was burnt out. Melissia disagrees but Pariah's are soulless. No matter what you can't insert a soul into someone
2011/02/18 20:26:05
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
crazypsyko666 wrote:Blanks just don't show up in the warp, Pariahs actually have a negative effect on warp beings.
Blanks have a negative effect on psykers (and indeed everyone) just by being near them though, as do Pariahs. The main difference being that Blanks have souls and Pariahs do not. Blanks simply nullify psychic effects whereas Pariahs are its (the Warp's) antithesis, and disrupt psychically sensitive and warp creatures because of that fact.
The Fallen are the Dark Angel's most closely guarded secret. None but the trusted brothers of the Inner Circle even know of their existence. Share their burden by joining in their knowledge of that most terrible of truths: Summary of the Fallen ~2300pts Sons of Medusa - ~2000pts Black Templar DT:90S+++G++M++B+I+Pw40k02++D++A+/areWD-R++++T(T)DM+
2011/02/18 20:37:32
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
I have no way to factually base this, but it is my understanding that the Pariah gene actually causes the carrier to have no soul. The Blank's effect is just a "defect", and it is why Pariahs have more of an effect than do Blanks.
The Fallen are the Dark Angel's most closely guarded secret. None but the trusted brothers of the Inner Circle even know of their existence. Share their burden by joining in their knowledge of that most terrible of truths: Summary of the Fallen ~2300pts Sons of Medusa - ~2000pts Black Templar DT:90S+++G++M++B+I+Pw40k02++D++A+/areWD-R++++T(T)DM+
2011/02/18 20:57:36
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
-Cypher- wrote:I have no way to factually base this, but it is my understanding that the Pariah gene actually causes the carrier to have no soul. The Blank's effect is just a "defect", and it is why Pariahs have more of an effect than do Blanks.
Whether or not Blanks and Pariahs are even different is a contentious issue.
2011/02/18 21:01:10
Subject: Pariah getting close to the golden throne. Probable result?
-Cypher- wrote:I have no way to factually base this, but it is my understanding that the Pariah gene actually causes the carrier to have no soul. The Blank's effect is just a "defect", and it is why Pariahs have more of an effect than do Blanks.
Whether or not Blanks and Pariahs are even different is a contentious issue.
Pariahs are due to the introduction of a gene. Blanks are due to a naturally occurring mutation. That is reason for the distinction between the two. The difference of their effects is less easily distinguished.
The Fallen are the Dark Angel's most closely guarded secret. None but the trusted brothers of the Inner Circle even know of their existence. Share their burden by joining in their knowledge of that most terrible of truths: Summary of the Fallen ~2300pts Sons of Medusa - ~2000pts Black Templar DT:90S+++G++M++B+I+Pw40k02++D++A+/areWD-R++++T(T)DM+
" -KingCracker
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Black Templars with GK allies WIP 
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