Bullets

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**tedstea**

read the ultramarines omnibus or the spacewolf omnibus all will be reavelled

**winnertakesall**

In Dow II the Space Marines reload their bolters, quite frequently infact. Admittedly they do just pull a mag out of thin air/out of their stomach, but in DoW they do reload

**Grey Templar**

Brother Coa wrote:
This only leaves one question: how many bullets they carry? If they where able to shoot for 6 hours in never ending horde of aliens how many bullets have they spent?

Terminators can probably only carry 3-4 extra mags plus the loaded Stormbolter. so 160-250 rounds.

the Ultramarine terminators would doubtless have had Serfs with them bringing more ammo during the battle.

**VikingScott**

Grey Templar wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
This only leaves one question: how many bullets they carry? If they where able to shoot for 6 hours in never ending horde of aliens how many bullets have they spent?

Terminators can probably only carry 3-4 extra mags plus the loaded Stormbolter. so 160-250 rounds.

the Ultramarine terminators would doubtless have had Serfs with them bringing more ammo during the battle.

Gotta remember this was on macragge, ammo would have been pretty plentiful in the Ultra's own base. They'd probably run out of people to bring it to them before running out of ammo itself.

**Spetulhu**

VikingScott wrote:Gotta remember this was on macragge, ammo would have been pretty plentiful in the Ultra's own base. They'd probably run out of people to bring it to them before running out of ammo itself.

Which is probably what was happening now that you mention it. The story in the SM codex says the defenders on the walls had guns overheating despite the arctic cold, and ammo running low despite fighting amidst stockpiles for monts of siege. Tyranids reportedly got in once there was enough dead bodies to reach the battlements walking... Then fighting in the fortress, and the remaining forces making a last stand in a supply dump. Serfs keep reloading empty magazines as many times as they can while the terminators keep firing into an endless horde of creatures. That's how you manage to fill the room with enemy dead six deep before being overrun.

Yes, six deep - the Codex didn't say anything about time though.

**Laodamia**

Grey Templar wrote:Power Fists are still capable of manipulating delicate things.

Marneus Calgar is drinks some Wine out of a Crystal Glass in the Ultramarine omnibus while wearing his pimp fists.

But it is also said that the gauntlets of Ultramar are extraordinary pieces of craftsmanship. I doubt many other power fists would be capable of such precision. I suppose the power fist of a sergeant or a marine will simply be utilitarian. It would be strong, it would kick asses, it would be reliable, but it would not be made to pick up flowers each spring. On the other hand, SM captains and other officers would probably want a fancy, shiny power fist that allow them to hold small, tiny objects.

Back on topic, I guess a termy suit could carry a good amount of drum mags for the storm bolter. Maybe 4-5 mags? Maybe even 6? That would make 240-360 bolter rounds.

**Melissia**

None, because Space Marines don't carry bullets, they carry bolter shells.

Regardless, I don't imagine they're going to carry more than three magazines (not clips, there are no known Boltgun patterns which use clips) at any given time except on the longest of campaigns. Probably should check with the Deathwatch rulebook on that.

**Grey Templar**

Melissia wrote:None, because Space Marines don't carry bullets, they carry bolter shells.

picky picky

marines certaintly wouldn't carry more then 5, but 3 is too few methinks.

**Melissia**

That's eighty to one twenty shots (including the magazine in the gun), more than enough for a brief engagement. Those stories about a single Marine taking down hundreds of enemies while waiting for backup are the exception rather than the norm, they want to end the battles ASAP as that is their greatest strength.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Brother Coa wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Yep, that's precisely what I'm telling you. I think you underestimate a Terminator's chances in combat. Genestealers may be able to tear Terminator Armour, but that takes effort and time. In a one-on-one fight, Terminators have the edge - they are better protected, harder hitting and more capable of doing damage. All they would have to do was occupy chokepoints in the fortress and they could in theory hold out for a very long time.

And you underestimate the situation here.
1- Fight was not one on one but 1000 to one at the same time.
2- They did not ocupy any checkpoints, it says in the book that all 6 of them where standing in the middle of the room like one in the "Ultramarines" movie where they fought daemon in the end.
3- Book also said that they where SHOOTING the whole time, and they fought for 6 HOURS. When they where forced to CC they where all killed almost instantly.

In the end only sergeant was alive, and he was still able to kill Carnifex before he died. And I do not underestimate Terminator armor, but Genestealer are a Genestealer and Tyranids are Tyranids. And if you don't know - Genestealer can break trough TA instantly and kill the Marine wearing it. Just see the space hulk situation.

On topic, how where they been able to shoot for 6 hours? And where did they find time to change mags when Tyranids where on top of them?

This book being the Codex, presumably?
If they were SHOOTING the whole time then it's poor fluff. As someone above us pointed out, that kind of fight is just not possible with Tyranids - sooner or later they're going to get into combat. Furthermore, i am using 40K for my comparison of a Terminator vs. a Genestealer, not Space Hulk, and in 40K the Terminator has the edge. Remember, the Stealer has only a 1/6 chance to ignore the Termies' armour save, and a 1/6 chance that it's attack will succeed in bringing the big lad down if they manage to hit and wound without rending. I fail to see how that's me being ignorant of unit abilities, though if you have good examples, then that's cool, I'll listen to them.

**KamikazeCanuck**

They carry 200-300 rounds, but yeah, they should carry more considering they often end up in non-stop 7 day battles.

**Laodamia**

Maybe they keep spare mags somewhere in they drop pods? That way, once the first encounter with the ennemy is over, they get back to their pod, get some fresh mags, and prepare for the next round.

**Melonfish**

Commander Endova wrote:
On topic, how where they been able to shoot for 6 hours? And where did they find time to change mags when Tyranids where on top of them?

To answer that topic, we need to attempt to apply a few real world concepts to this peice of fluff.

Firstly, one never fires a continuous stream of fire. To shoot with any sort of accuracy, one must shoot in bursts. There are a number of reasons for this, but ammo conservation is one of them, and for our purposes, the most relevant.

Secondly, a squad learns how to fight as a cohesive unit, including how to stagger shooting and reloads so that at no point is the whole squad out of ammo. This is achieved by simple communication. One warrior shouting "Reloading!" is ample enough wordage to communicate to his comrades that they should increase their volumes of fire to compensate for the momentary loss in firepower while he changes his magazine. The more a unit fights together, the better at this they become. They learn their shooting habits of their fellows, and thus are able to stagger their reloads much more precisely. Terminators are extremely professional and experienced warriors who spend vast amounts of time training or fighting alongside their battle brothers. There is no reason to doubt the fact that they are as cohesive as is possible.

Thirdly, like the vast majority of ballistic small arms, we can assume that Storm Bolters need to have their firing mechanisms manually charged in some form or another to initiate firing. And like the vast majority of box magazine fed small arms, if the magazine is reloaded while the final bullet from the previous magazine is still in the chamber, the weapon will not have to be manually charged again after reloading. It can simply keep firing. This can save precious seconds in a firefight. In order to facilitate this, one needs to know how many rounds are left in his weapon. Thus, one needs to be familiar enough with his weapon to accurately "count bullets" or have some alternative method of knowing his ammunition supply, (like an ammo counter on a HUD). Terminators assuredly have both.

Finally, muscle memory is a huge contributing factor in weapon reload speed. In order to reload smoothly, with no fumbling or failing, one needs to practice reloading the same weapon system many, many times. In the 6-ish years I've operated the M4 carbine and dimensionally equivalent replicas, I've gained the ability to do just that. Surely an individual that has had decades, if not centuries, to practice that, can reload flawlessly.

A wordy answer to a simple question, bu there it is nonetheless.

This in effect is my post without me having to say it!
muscle memory is pretty much what you go back to when your busy thinking about other things!
to throw a real spanner in the works here we mustn't forget that a bolter is effectively an 18mm weapon, its been stated time and again they're around .72 calibre which is for want of a mm or two almost a 20mm round in fact. you cannot carry many of them at all on your person i'll guarentee that.
however, we then have to take into account how big a marine is 3m? so a magazine a marine carries could easily hold 30-40 20mm rounds
standard load for most armed forces is 6 magazines so we'll assume to begin with that they're carrying somwhere between 180 to 240 rounds.
add another 60-80 for the ones already combat loaded into the weapon.
after that they're pretty much stripping them from dead comrades.
after that they're throwing empty brass.
Pete

**KamikazeCanuck**

Laodamia wrote:Maybe they keep spare mags somewhere in they drop pods? That way, once the first encounter with the ennemy is over, they get back to their pod, get some fresh mags, and prepare for the next round.

sure, why not.

**Grey Templar**

the Terminators on Maccragge were sitting on a chapter stockpile that has been sitting there for 10k years.

they practically had an unlimited supply of ammo and were only limited by the speed of reloading and how fast Chapter serfs chould bring them more.

we also have to realize that real 40k and game 40k arn't exactly the same thing. in fluff, a genestealer doesn't have a 1/6 chance of rending and killing a terminator. it's probably closer to 1/36 chance of a rend and the Terminator still has a 1/3 chance of surviving even that.

it wasn't just Genestealers hitting the terminators, in fact there might not have been any because Genestealers are a vanguard bioform. not an assault bioform.

it was Termi and Hormagants backed up by Carnifexs that would have assaulted the 1st. Gaunts wouldn't stand a chance againmst ranks and ranks of Bolter fire and only Carnifex's would get through and be a real threat. and then you have Assault terminators for these guys.

the regular terminators would pour fire into the advancing nids. when the nids reached the lines, the Assault terminators would step forward to engage while the Tac termies retreated to the next firing line.

**Melissia**

An average Marine is about nine to ten feet including the power armor, IIRC. Could be wrong here.

Keep in mind that the weapons on the models are exaggerated for heroic scale.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:the regular terminators would pour fire into the advancing nids. when the nids reached the lines, the Assault terminators would step forward to engage while the Tac termies retreated to the next firing line.

I agree with this. If Marines had unlimited ammo, this would be the ideal tactics for a group of terminators, especially if they were guarding a hill, multiple levels of a fortress, or a mountain and retreating upwards towards the center allowing the tactical terminators to fire over the heads of their assault brethren into the encoming horde.

**Grey Templar**

it's more like 8-9 feet.

terminator armor adds a couple feet, in both directions

a marine out of power armor is more like 7-8 feet(depending on the individual marine)

**Melissia**

Merely seven to eight? The average catachan is that tall, so I hardly think eight feet is the upper limit of the average Marine.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Grey Templar wrote:the Terminators on Maccragge were sitting on a chapter stockpile that has been sitting there for 10k years.

they practically had an unlimited supply of ammo and were only limited by the speed of reloading and how fast Chapter serfs chould bring them more.

we also have to realize that real 40k and game 40k arn't exactly the same thing. in fluff, a genestealer doesn't have a 1/6 chance of rending and killing a terminator. it's probably closer to 1/36 chance of a rend and the Terminator still has a 1/3 chance of surviving even that.

it wasn't just Genestealers hitting the terminators, in fact there might not have been any because Genestealers are a vanguard bioform. not an assault bioform.

it was Termi and Hormagants backed up by Carnifexs that would have assaulted the 1st. Gaunts wouldn't stand a chance againmst ranks and ranks of Bolter fire and only Carnifex's would get through and be a real threat. and then you have Assault terminators for these guys.

the regular terminators would pour fire into the advancing nids. when the nids reached the lines, the Assault terminators would step forward to engage while the Tac termies retreated to the next firing line.

This, essentially.
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to convey my thoughts quite as concisely. Oh well.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Melissia wrote:Merely seven to eight? The average catachan is that tall, so I hardly think eight feet is the upper limit of the average Marine.

Actually, the average Catachan is shorter than the average Imperial. They're known for stockyness. Before you ask: Death World. I would say the average Catachan is below 6 feet.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Melissia wrote:Merely seven to eight? The average catachan is that tall, so I hardly think eight feet is the upper limit of the average Marine.

Not so, I'm sure the average Catachan is no taller than 6ft 6in. Could be wrong there, but I'm sure they aren't much taller than that, I'm sure. Marines are about 8-9ft in their armour, as I recall.

**Melissia**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Melissia wrote:Merely seven to eight? The average catachan is that tall, so I hardly think eight feet is the upper limit of the average Marine.

Not so, I'm sure the average Catachan is no taller than 6ft 6in. Could be wrong there, but I'm sure they aren't much taller than that, I'm sure. Marines are about 8-9ft in their armour, as I recall.

I very much recall in the Cain books that Cain, who was taller than the average Imperial (described as physically standing out in a crowd of the common Imperial citizen), was himself dwarfed by the average Catachan soldier he ran across in the third book.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Melissia wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Melissia wrote:Merely seven to eight? The average catachan is that tall, so I hardly think eight feet is the upper limit of the average Marine.

Not so, I'm sure the average Catachan is no taller than 6ft 6in. Could be wrong there, but I'm sure they aren't much taller than that, I'm sure. Marines are about 8-9ft in their armour, as I recall.
I very much recall in the Cain books that Cain, who was taller than the average Imperial (described as physically standing out in a crowd of the common Imperial citizen), was himself dwarfed by the average Catachan soldier he ran across in the third book.

I don't doubt there's a blantant contradiction and I don't doubt that book is better (Death World is bad do not read) but I'm still gonna go with Death World. It's about Catachans and I think Cain books are purposefully unreliable.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Cain's about 2 metres tall, isn't he?
In that case, two conclusions/theories:
The catachans are bigger than 6ft 6in, (about 2 metres)
or that was a particularly large catachan.
Are you sure that was an average catachan?

**Dark**

I know that bringing logic to 40K is -almost- Heresy, but with the gravity issue from Catachan, it'd be logical if they where 150 to 160cm tall as average, depending on genetics, feeding and enviromental factors, a normal citizen would go from 170 to 190cm tall (of course, that doesn't leaves taller or shorter out).

I always imagined Space Marines to be around 240cm tall, that'd be from 1.5 to 2 heads taller than your average citizen, add sheer altered muscle mass, then the power armour and you have the great soldiers that are described in books and images.

**Grey Templar**

for the record, there are Imperial Worlds where the Humans approach the Height of an Astartes.

the Carolingens(a Warrior Materiarchel society that comes up in the Ravenor and Eisenhorn omnibuses) are known to be the height of Space Marines. and thats just the women.

it isn't the height of a Space marine thats notable, it's more about the bulk combined with the height. you see a 6 and a half foot man and he looks really tall. if you add muscles to match the height he looks even taller.

**Gogsnik**

In Inquisitor, Artemis only carries two reloads for his boltgun. In Deathwatch backpack ammo is said to hold up to two hundred and fifty rounds for a bolt weapon and two magazines for a Godwyn pattern bolter would mean fifty-six rounds. It seems feasible to imagine that a Space Marine could carry up to half a dozen spare magazines.

**biccat**

Commander Endova wrote:Firstly, one never fires a continuous stream of fire. To shoot with any sort of accuracy, one must shoot in bursts. There are a number of reasons for this, but ammo conservation is one of them, and for our purposes, the most relevant.

When you're fighting off a WAVE of attackers, firing in a continuous stream probably wasn't a bad idea. In WWI this tactic was pretty efficient at taking down the enemy.

A few enemies and limited ammunition, fire in bursts to maximize carnage.

Waves of enemies and essentially unlimited ammunition (Macragge), you don't let your finger off the trigger until the barrel warps.

edit: Given that SM backpacks are almost unlimited power, why wouldn't the SM use a souped-up lasgun? Power seems to be virtually unlimited in the 40k-verse, so this would seem to make the most sense.

**Dark**

Gogsnik wrote:

In Inquisitor, Artemis only carries two reloads for his boltgun. In Deathwatch backpack ammo is said to hold up to two hundred and fifty rounds for a bolt weapon and two magazines for a Godwyn pattern bolter would mean fifty-six rounds. It seems feasible to imagine that a Space Marine could carry up to half a dozen spare magazines.

So they're around 7.8 feet tall? That's 238cm rounding up, my guesses wheren't wrong then.

**Commander Endova**

biccat wrote:
Commander Endova wrote:Firstly, one never fires a continuous stream of fire. To shoot with any sort of accuracy, one must shoot in bursts. There are a number of reasons for this, but ammo conservation is one of them, and for our purposes, the most relevant.

When you're fighting off a WAVE of attackers, firing in a continuous stream probably wasn't a bad idea. In WWI this tactic was pretty efficient at taking down the enemy.

A few enemies and limited ammunition, fire in bursts to maximize carnage.

Waves of enemies and essentially unlimited ammunition (Macragge), you don't let your finger off the trigger until the barrel warps.

If we're talking about overall ammunition available, then yes. Of course you are correct. However, in the post you quoted, I go on to talk about a squad being able to maintain fire as a unit. If every member of the squad pulled the their trigger at the same time, and shot until they were empty, then they'd all be reloading at the same time, which wouldn't be good in that situation. Unlimited ammunition on hand =/= unlimited ammunition in magazine.

Furthermore, remember that Space Marines have reflexes greatly superior to our own, and that Storm Bolters have a blistering rate of fire. I'd imagine the process of acquiring a target, aiming, shooting and acquiring the next target is performed in the blink of an eye by a Terminator. This process takes considerably longer for a human.

And you bring up another point. Barrel warpage. In a protracted firefight against a numerically superior enemy, you can't risk it. I'm sure Terminators are far more familiar with the cooling system of a Storm Bolter than any of us are. I'm sure they fired at a sustainable rate to prevent their weapons from failing.