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MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Going by your logic, it's entirely fluffy to field a Imperial Fist army all on bikes, Salamanders with only assault squads and no meltas, Ravenguard entirely with devastator squads, and Space Wolves with only scouts. *Technically* they have all of this. Fluff wise, which is more proportionally higher and likely to show up in an engagement?

Not what I said at all.

Captain on Bike

Chaplain (JP)

Assault Squad (JP)
Assault Squad (JP)

Bike Squad
Bike Squad
Land Speeder Squadron

Fast Predator
Fast Predator

That is a totally fluffy White Scars list and the BA codex does it better than C:SM because it's the only codex that gives them the fast tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:BAs are famous for their bikes and landspeeders? You sure a certain white robed, black armored dude isnt going to question you?

Plus, if you want to go fluffy, the Vanilla dex has, you know, an actual White Scars character, who gives you their CHAPTER TACTICS. Seems kinda pointless for them to give up their CHAPTER TACTICS to proxy as the latest bandwagon dex.

No, WS are famous for those things.

C:SM doesn't give you fast tanks which is something that White Scars should have to be fluffy.

But they dont need to have it. Nothing says White Scars should have Fast Vehicles for it to be fluffy. They could make due to Bikespam, or have Devastators (like *coughbloodangelsrightcough*). They have those, so why do they need fast vehicles?

According to the fluff, all their armour is specially modified so that it's fast enough to keep up with the bikes and speeders.

But according to you they don't need that. Just like they don't need the assault squads that fluff talks about them using lots of.

Since White Scars = Bikes seems to be the total of your knowledge of White Scars, that's all they need. I mean, you didn't even know that they don't use Dreads or Devestators at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:or have Devastators (like *coughbloodangelsrightcough*)

Are you seriously saying you can't tell the difference between WS - "we never use devastators ever and don't even have any" and BA - "we have 18 squads of devastators like any regular chapter but we're famous for our assault squads."

Quick Question, where does it say they dont have Devs? I honestly couldnt find it. I found the blurp about Dreads.

However, you were arguing just the opposite against the BAs in the other thread, where you considered a lack of Assault Squads to be "very fluffy". You can have 10 bikers + FA Assault Squads. They are masters of Hit and Run, hence why Khan confers Outflank, to give you a gurella style way of fielding your armies (to be honest though, the actual Hit and Run rule would be nice). And note that they dont "keep up" with the bikes, but simply dont leave them without fire support, which is why you have Outflank (seeing a pattern here?). They make great use of bikes, hence why these form their core troop choice, since it's rather weird for their shock troops, assault squads, to hold objectives.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Quick Question, where does it say they dont have Devs? I honestly couldnt find it. I found the blurp about Dreads.

Index Astartes Vol I

"The White Scars preferred fighting style does not allow them the use of as many heavy weapons as other Chapters and as a result they have no Devestator squads."

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:And note that they dont "keep up" with the bikes, but simply dont leave them without fire support

"Their reliance on fast moving fire support also means that most tanks are too slow for the White Scars and those they do have are stripped down versions that can keep up with the rest of the army."

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:However, you were arguing just the opposite against the BAs in the other thread, where you considered a lack of Assault Squads to be "very fluffy"

A fresh BA battle company has the exact same mix of squads as any other. Unless you're going to start adding background to your army about how they're a strike force or they're heavily depleted and have kept the assault squads at full strength while draining the other squad types then no or few assault squads is not in violation of the fluff. For example, a demi-company of 3xTac, 1xAssault, 1xDev is completely fluffy but you'd argue that it has to be all assault squads because that's what they're famous for.

The big difference between BA and WS is that WS are famous for bikes and have a lot more of them than most chapters so having no bikes would be extremely odd - you'd need a really good army background to explain that. On the other hand, BA are famous for assault squads but have the exact same amount as everyone else so an army without few or none is not so unlikely at all.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:You can have 10 bikers + FA Assault Squads. They are masters of Hit and Run, hence why Khan confers Outflank, to give you a gurella style way of fielding your armies (to be honest though, the actual Hit and Run rule would be nice).

Is it fluffy for all WS armies to be led by Khan?

Scott-S6 wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Quick Question, where does it say they dont have Devs? I honestly couldnt find it. I found the blurp about Dreads.

Index Astartes Vol I

"The White Scars preferred fighting style does not allow them the use of as many heavy weapons as other Chapters and as a result they have no Devestator squads."

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:And note that they dont "keep up" with the bikes, but simply dont leave them without fire support

"Their reliance on fast moving fire support also means that most tanks are too slow for the White Scars and those they do have are stripped down versions that can keep up with the rest of the army."

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:However, you were arguing just the opposite against the BAs in the other thread, where you considered a lack of Assault Squads to be "very fluffy"

A fresh BA battle company has the exact same mix of squads as any other. Unless you're going to start adding background to your army about how they're a strike force or they're heavily depleted and have kept the assault squads at full strength while draining the other squad types then no or few assault squads is not in violation of the fluff. For example, a demi-company of 3xTac, 1xAssault, 1xDev is completely fluffy but you'd argue that it has to be all assault squads because that's what they're famous for.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:You can have 10 bikers + FA Assault Squads. They are masters of Hit and Run, hence why Khan confers Outflank, to give you a gurella style way of fielding your armies (to be honest though, the actual Hit and Run rule would be nice).

Is it fluffy for all WS armies to be led by Khan?

I'll give you the fast vehicles, but here's to address the last two: Does BAs always fight as a fresh company? If they do, why not Khan with his host?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I'll give you the fast vehicles, but here's to address the last two: Does BAs always fight as a fresh company?

No, of course not. Depleted BA forces will tend to end up with a higher ratio of assault squads. They also form strike forces with lots of assault squads so that's perfectly fluffy. It is not, however, the only way that they fight.

Scott-S6 wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I'll give you the fast vehicles, but here's to address the last two: Does BAs always fight as a fresh company?

No, of course not. Depleted BA forces will tend to end up with a higher ratio of assault squads. They also form strike forces with lots of assault squads so that's perfectly fluffy. It is not, however, the only way that they fight.

So then how come it's not fluffy for Khan to lead a host of bikers and tacticals in drop pods?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I'll give you the fast vehicles, but here's to address the last two: Does BAs always fight as a fresh company?

No, of course not. Depleted BA forces will tend to end up with a higher ratio of assault squads. They also form strike forces with lots of assault squads so that's perfectly fluffy. It is not, however, the only way that they fight.

So then how come it's not fluffy for Khan to lead a host of bikers and tacticals in drop pods?

I never said that it wasn't.

See my earlier post: "The big difference between BA and WS is that WS are famous for bikes and have a lot more of them than most chapters so having no bikes would be extremely odd - you'd need a really good army background to explain that. On the other hand, BA are famous for assault squads but have the exact same amount as everyone else so an army without few or none is not so unlikely at all."

There's nothing unfluffy about it. It's just that the White Scars have 9 other captains. Why can't a WS force be led by any of them? The default Chapter Tactics rule I think makes plenty of sense for the White Scars; certainly as much so as outflank. In lieu of having actual Hit and Run, voluntarily trying to leave a combat that they lost, instead of getting bogged down, is absolutely something that the White Scars would do.

I'm not sure about drop pods, actually. Sure, they're great for getting where you want initially, but once there, you don;t exactly have a ton of mobility.


The fact is, either codex makes perfect sense for a White Scars army. Obviously a bike-heavy list is going to be better accomplished with C:SM. But C:BA is the way to go for a mechanized WS force. It's not WS are totally devoid of Assault Marines anyway:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/White_Scars wrote:A unique formation within the Chapter are the Souldrinkers, Space Marine veterans that excel in close combat. These Marines are armed with power-swords and refractor fields and bear their own distinctive shoulder badges and honour banners. Another formation are the Cobra Squads, comprised of regular members of the Chapter's companies that have been equipped with jump packs.

Gee, that looks like Vanguard Veterans and scoring Assault Marines packs to me! Also, the Storm Raven. You can't tell me that something that fast, with that much firepower, wouldn't be a wet dream for any WS commander.

I also think that C:BA does Storm Seers better than C:SM. While I can't confirm it, it seems to me like Storm Seers are a combination of the chapters chaplains and their Librarians, rather than having a separate Reclusiam and Librarium.

To me, that says: Librarian with Unleash Rage and Smite. Unleash Rage is functionally similar to Liturgies of Battle (a re-roll to hit in CC) and Smite is a Psychic power that involves lightning, a major theme in WS symbology.

Commander Endova wrote:I'm not sure about drop pods, actually. Sure, they're great for getting where you want initially, but once there, you don;t exactly have a ton of mobility.

I agree, I don't see that would not use them but it would have to be specific to the circumstances. They'd want a good reason to lose that mobility.

yea pretty sure the army pictured above is very unfluffy since almost everything ive read says they have no dreads or devastator squads

By the way just looked through a copy of recent codex and with Khans "master of the hunt" rule White Scars gain hit and run and furious charge I still have yet to see any down side to fielding Kor'saro other then he may be a little more pricey point wise